Refuting Reformed Theology on "2 Corinthians 5:21"

[Gadgeteer]

Only those who belong to Jesus have eternal life.
Only those who have crucified the flesh, belong to Jesus.
Those who are fleshly, have not crucified their flesh, and they do not belong to Jesus (nor have eternal life)…

And the converse applies — those who do not walk in the Spirit, but who walk in the flesh, are not — “of Christ”…

Here is the dynamic of our lives; it is by the SPIRIT’S power that we put to death the flesh — Rom8:13.

It’s the same in 2Tim1:12-14 — we guard by the Spirit the treasure (eternal life!) entrusted to us…

We’re faced with a choice — you and I agree Scripture teaches “we cannot walk in sin and be considered Christ’s”. So then we have to decide, are verses like Rom8:12-13 (“if we walk in the flesh we must die”) absolute? Can we exert exceptions to Rom8:12-13, and then extend them to 1Cor3:1-3 (“carnal Christians who are filled with jealousy and strife”) and Gal5 (those who engage in jealousy and strife will not inherit)?

It would seem wiser to study Scripture first, and then form doctrines — than to cling to doctrines that impose exceptions and exemptions on what the Apostles wrote.

Wouldn’t it?

I would like to issue a bit of a warning here. We’ve read the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, and their comments on 1Cor3:1-3, and Heb5:11-14. If after reading here (or for some other reason) someone comes to the understanding that “carnal-Christians are not really Christians”, that these verses are in fact rebuking people who are “young in Christianity” — rebuking them back TO salvation…

…do not go storming into any assembly, Catholic church, or other place, with a combative attitude! Our hearts are to pursue “love, peace, and joy”, and not “disputes and factions and dissensions”. Please just keep an open mind, dedicated to our deepest heart’s desire to pursue God on His terms, to study what the Apostles really wanted to convey, and — in all things, to “speak the truth in LOVE” (Eph4:15).

With all my heart I pray that each of us embody “godly spirituality and gentle love”, that we emerge not divided, but dedicated to each other, desperately open to God’s leading and His presence, and that HE REMAINS LORD of all we say and do.

If we have disagreement, let us agree on the basic things; what it means to belong to Jesus, and that we never divert from our goal — to remain together as brothers and sisters, with Jesus, forever. If you think someone is wrong (including me), give them the right to BE wrong, and let each of us craft our words so that they not only taste good as we speak them, but that they do not injure as others hear them. Not that we “tickle itching ears” with watered-down false godliness, but that we succeed in allowing Him to use us as his vessels to reach and convict a lost and dying world.

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

…we are arguing for the same cause… only thing is that we use different terms (vocabulary); we both agree that there’s no such thing as OSAS–there never was. Salvation is Eternal and will never be revoked; but, it is Hidden in Christ. All men (humanity) have access to it:

13 But now in Christ Jesus, you that used to be so far apart from us have been brought very close, by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is the peace between us, and has made the two into one and broken down the barrier which used to keep them apart, actually destroying in his own person the hostility 15 caused by the rules and decrees of the Law. This was to create one single New Man in himself out of the two of them and by restoring peace 16 through the cross, to unite them both in a single Body and reconcile them with God; In his own person he killed the hostility. 17 Later he came to bring the good news of peace, peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near at hand. 18 Through him, both of us have in the one Spirit our way to come to the Father. 19 So you are no longer aliens or foreign visitors: you are citizens like all the saints, and part of God’s household. 20 You are part of a building that has the apostles and prophets*c] for its foundations, and Christ Jesus himself for its main cornerstone. 21 As every structure is aligned on him, all grow into one holy temple in the Lord; 22 and you too, in him, are being built into a house where God lives, in the Spirit. (Ephesians 2:13-22)

Never was “OSAS”, and never will be.

• OSAS #1 – Antinomianism, saved SPIRIT but sinful corrupt FLESH
• OSAS #2 – Eternal Security, each person decides to love God or not, but God keeps
• OSAS #3 – Reformed Theology (predestined salvation) – God decided before creation who lives and who dies

In all of these, they are simply repeating what satan said to Eve:
"Don’t worry, you won’t really die."

But scripture says we are at the same risk of deception-away-from-Jesus, as Eve experienced in the Garden! 2Cor11:3!

God is love. It is His most inner Being, it is His essence. Each of those “OSAS” views violates “love” – love cannot demand its own way (1Cor13:5). God is also light, and light has no fellowship with darkness (2Cor6:14ff).

In all our discussions, the key is not what kind of spiritual godly Christians we make ourselves into, but how we dwell in Him that HE re-makes us as He wills. For He is our righteousness, He is our love; He is our godliness, He is our everything!

The heart of Christianity is when a person becomes a believer, because he or she has truly fallen in love with God. “For God is love; he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.” “For God so loved the WORLD, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever IS BELIEV-ING shall not perish but live forever!”

This is not an “external thing”, God and Jesus and the Spirit neatly wrapped and laying on the seat next to us as we drive down our roads-of-life, always ready to help if we ever need them.

“I am CRUCIFIED with Christ, it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the One who loved me and delivered Himself up for me.” Gal2:20

This thing we have – is a real, dynamic, UNION between two very real people. Creator (Jesus!), and creature (me, and each of you!). Only when He is real to YOU, can you make Him real to anyone else.

Please, make Him real in your hearts, and in your spirits! Eternity has already begun, in the hearts of those who KNOW Him! When we die, or when He returns – whichever comes first, it is no great change for us! For WE ARE ALREADY WITH HIM!

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

…well for that exegesis to work we would have to hold that all Christians during all times will suffer persecution and death as Jesus did–otherwise it would be as symbolic as the saying: ‘I was there when they Crucified my Lord…’

Conversely it would make the command of water Baptism an exercise in superfluity:

We are commanded to be “waterbaptized”. I also think it’s clear that those in Acts8 were waterbaptized but not yet saved, and those in Acts10 were truly saved but not yet waterbaptized.

It is by receiving Baptism that a person is able to partake in Christ’s Suffering and Crucifixion. The early persecution of the Church would forcibly mandate that Jesus’ Apostles suffer and be put to death; yet, not all of Christ’s Followers would suffer similar persecutions, sufferings, and martyrdom–so it could hardly be said that the Apostles point to Christ Suffering and Crucifixion as the Baptism that all Believers receive and in which unites them to the Body (Christ).

I think it’s not appropriate to “argue waterbaptism on a Catholic board”. I hope that readers keep an open mind about specific passages (conspicuously two, Rom6:3-4, and Eph4:5), reflect Luke12:50 and Mark10:38; so those two verses probably do not intend “water”.

In the end, you (all Catholics here), and I (and most Protestants I know), have been waterbaptized; it certainly is not worth fighting, because in the end we shall be brothers and sisters with Jesus forever.

…it would be glorious to have such complete union that there in deed be One Gospel amongst all Christians.

There really is. I mean — look at you and me? One of us is Catholic, one of us is Protestant; and yet you and I agree on Scripture, and on the basics of salvation! We have “one Gospel” — that Jesus came, died, and lived again, that each of us might live. That He took out our CERTIFICATE OF DEBT (“the wages of sin are death!”), having nailed to to the Cross (Col2:14). That salvation is a gift of grace and not by works, the works are the CONSEQUENCE of the change He wrought in us when we received Him. That we must abide in Him — just as in ANY relationship of love, we must pursue His presence with all our hearts!

That’s a lot of agreement, and that is one Gospel.

Jesus will return; we all also agree on that. And EACH of us will find we made mistakes in understanding, and that we got some things right! We will laugh and sing in each others’ arms, and in His arms, when the Perfect comes and all errors will be done away with.

Until then, let our words build and not destroy, unite and not divide, promote Jesus whom we (say we) serve, that the world will know the truth in us and not hypocrisy.

…yet, the confusion is so deeply ingrained in individual Christian groups as that of a person who, today, was lecturing me about ethics and respect… in his drunken stupor he finally pronounced that he was an angel among evil people and that he was the lion that set the rules in this territory (the place where we were)… the only thing I was able to gain was to have his attention turned towards me and away from the lady he was hounding…

If I could turn everyone’s attention to the Word of God… that would be something!

We keep trying, in places like an “internet message board”.

And we keep promoting that the goal BEHIND the scene, is to grow each other in Christ; that we all end up in eternity with Him.

…and that no one is SHOCKED to find ANY OF US there!

 

[Gadgeteer]

Ah, reformed theology.

I know – right?

in spite of what they say,

the son who was a prodigal, didn’t stop being the father’s son as a prodigal son. If he died as a prodigal son, he was screwed. But although screwed, he was still his father’s son.

On the other thread, I said:
Gadget:

Goodness – I don’t know how many times I’ve tried to correct people on Luke15; no, the Prodigal was not still a son WHEN HE WAS A CORPSE. He was lost, but was found (again) — was dead, but now is alive again! “Lost” “dead” “corpse”, is not “still a son!”

“I would like you to meet my SON – yes I know he’s just a pile of bones, he’s been dead for some time now; but he’s STILL MY SON! Son, shake this nice man’s hand!”

Jesus is speaking of spiritual life, so — yes, the son was (spiritually) dead. One cannot be “alive AGAIN”, unless there was sumpthin’ in between what wuzn’t alive.

There is an issue that, though subtle, is important. In Acts17:28 Paul said, “Even some of your poets have said 'We are (all) God’s children” (genos, offspring). But there is a great difference between being “God’s children”, and being “children of God”. In Jn1:12-13, the right to become children of God is granted to those who receive Jesus — who (verse 13) are born/begotten (gennaō) not of Human descent, but of God.

We are “begotten”, by adoption — we receive the Spirit of adoption, Rom8:15.

For support of that, when the prodigal returned, what did the father say?

This idiot has returned, and NOW he’s become my son again? No.

Respectfully, yes. "He was dead — now is alive again. A corpse is not a son — RT’s argue vehemently that he never stopped being a son!

He said

Lk 15:
24 for this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to make merry.

The prodigal son never stopped being his father’s sonThe “father” is allegorically God; so by the same argument, every other person in the world is “a son of the father”!

Is every other person the father’s son (or daughter)? No. The Prodigal became like everyone else…

OSAS folks, think a son can’t be lost. A son can only be the one saved. That’s the problem with OSAS Protestant theory.

A lot of Protestants reject OSAS.

In this case of the prodigal son, what changed the prodigal’s mind to repent and come home?

The prodigal said

Lk 15:
he squandered his property in loose living. 14 And when he had spent everything, a great famine arose in that country, and he began to be in want. 15 So he went and joined himself to one of the citizens of that country, who sent him into his fields to feed swine. 16 And he would gladly have fed on**(“Lk15 RSVCE - The Parable of the Lost Sheep - Now the - Bible Gateway”)] the pods that the swine ate; and no one gave him anything. 17 But when he came to himself he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have bread enough and to spare, but I perish here with hunger! 18 I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you; 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; treat me as one of your hired servants.”’ 20 And he arose and came to his father."

Note:

• This son’s father is still his father, and this son is still his father’s son.

• This is about repentance of a prodigal son, and from that repentance, came forgiveness from his father. What if there was No repentance on the son’s part? The prodigal son was screwed.

Do you agree that the father (in Jesus’ story), represents God? So — “we were all …children of wrath (Hell)” — Eph2:3.

Steve, I know you agree that the Prodigal was “lost and dead”; please understand Reformers (and other OSAS) insist “he never stopped being the father’s son (never was unsaved), did he?”

Yes – Jesus fully intended that the Prodigal became as spiritually dead as everyone else who didn’t belong to the father…

 

[jcrichton]

Yes! Jude3:23, we can SAVE others DIVERTING those who absolutely were heading towards the fire!

Conversely, we can DESTROY those for whom Christ died, Rom14:15, 1Cor8:11, Matt23:13-15!

Is this not precisely the command in Mark16:15? In that, we are to “encourage one another lest any of US become hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from the living God; for we are partners in Christ IF we HOLD FAST the beginning of our assurance firm until the end”!

(Heb3:12-14)

(…how many do you think will catch that I quoted from Jude chapter three???)

Hi!

…yes, St. Jude is a wonderful read/study… there’s so much packed in such a simple Epistle (not even a whole page)…

It brings to mind Isaiah (‘Lord no one listened…’) because this Epistle refutes every contention of predestination (double) and OSAS theologies… it also forces (‘in your face!’) issues that Believers must accept or willfully ignore (Epistle of St. Jude):

3 My dear friends, at a time when I was eagerly looking forward to writing to you about the salvation that we all share

, I have been** forced to write to you **now and appeal to you to **fight hard for the faith **which has been once and for all entrusted to the saints.
While “Salvation” is individual (each person must avail him/herself of it) it is not an independent existence–Christians are Called to One Body (Ephesians 4:1-32); there’s turmoil in the Church–heresies and false teachings are creeping in amongst the Believers, and those Baptized and Living the Faith are in danger of being led astray, away from Christ’s Gospel of Salvation; Christian Faith (Salvation) is not a done deal (as in once saved…)–rather, it is Genesis’ 3:15 Battle (more expanded version on Apocalypse [Revelation] 12) where those in Fellowship with Christ must adhere (abide) with Christ and Live out his/her Salvation (Faith); then we have the Communion of the Saints–Christianity, though predicated upon the individual obedience and acceptance of God, it is a Community: the Body of Christ.

4 Certain people have infiltrated among you

, and they are the ones you had a warning about, in writing, long ago, when they were condemned for denying all religion, turning the grace of our God into immorality, and rejecting our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
The Body of Christ is under assailment (Apocalypse 12:17)–this Battle will continue till Judgment Day (Apocalypse 16:1-11); these false prophets and teachers war against God attempting to dissuade man from becoming part of Christ’s Body and by coopting and corrupting God’s Gift of Grace; they also reject Christ’s Divinity and His Authority as the Only Lord and Master!

Verses 5 through 11–depict the Battle as the Dragon and his follower continue to attempt against God’s Divine Authority and Salvific Plan, even and in spite of what awaits them!

12 They are a dangerous obstacle to your community meals

, coming for the food and quite shamelessly only looking after themselves. They are like clouds blown about by the winds and bringing no rain, or like barren trees which are then uprooted in the winter and so are twice dead;
I’ll close with this passage (Jesus warns about the blind leading the blind)… these twice dead are a threat to the Breaking of the Bread (Holy Eucharist) as they urge Believers to despise and trample upon the Body of Christ–making the Communal Gathering into some sort of opportunity for social licentiousness.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

…Only those who belong to Jesus have eternal life.
Only those who have crucified the flesh, belong to Jesus.
Those who are fleshly, have not crucified their flesh, and they do not belong to Jesus (nor have eternal life)…

…And the converse applies — those who do not walk in the Spirit, but who walk in the flesh, are not — “of Christ”…

…We’re faced with a choice — you and I agree Scripture teaches “we cannot walk in sin and be considered Christ’s”. So then we have to decide, are verses like Rom8:12-13 (“if we walk in the flesh we must die”) absolute? Can we exert exceptions to Rom8:12-13, and then extend them to 1Cor3:1-3 (“carnal Christians who are filled with jealousy and strife”) and Gal5 (those who engage in jealousy and strife will not inherit)?

It would seem wiser to study Scripture first, and then form doctrines — than to cling to doctrines that impose exceptions and exemptions on what the Apostles wrote.

Wouldn’t it?

Good citation. And – we “walk in repentance”, and do not walk in sin; yes we (the saved!) sin, but we do not practice sin.
“No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.” 1Jn3:6-10

Hi!

I find that Ezekiel 18 addresses this issue exceedingly clear:

30 House of Israel, in future** I**

mean to **judge each of you **by what he does – it is the Lord Yahweh who speaks. Repent, renounce all your sins, avoid all occasions of sin! 31 Shake off all the sins you have committed against me, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why are you so anxious to die, House of Israel? 32 I take no pleasure in the death of anyone – it is the Lord Yahweh who speaks. Repent and live! (Ezekiel 18:30-32)
We, the House of Israel (all Believers are House of Israel (Romans 9:1-33), are Saved through and In Jesus; we are Called to Walk in the Light (Spirit); we are Called to reject sin; yet, if and when we sin, we are Called to Repentance (to avail ourselves of the Sacrament of Reconciliation/Confession); to Turn to God and Abide in God.

When the Believer Abides in Christ there is no sin in him/her; when the Believer acts in his/her own wisdom/authority and disobey/reject God he/she is in peril of running from God and embracing sin. Scriptures mandate that the wages of sin is death–all who walk in sin will receive the wages of sin.

In my estimation, the most salient Teaching in Ezekiel 18 is that Israel, man, has the freewill to reject sin and embrace God or to reject God and embrace sin.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Never was “OSAS”, and never will be.

• OSAS #1 – Antinomianism, saved SPIRIT but sinful corrupt FLESH
• OSAS #2 – Eternal Security, each person decides to love God or not, but God keeps
• OSAS #3 – Reformed Theology (predestined salvation) – God decided before creation who lives and who dies

In all of these, they are simply repeating what satan said to Eve:
"Don’t worry, you won’t really die."

But scripture says we are at the same risk of deception-away-from-Jesus, as Eve experienced in the Garden! 2Cor11:3!

God is love. It is His most inner Being, it is His essence. Each of those “OSAS” views violates “love” – love cannot demand its own way (1Cor13:5). God is also light, and light has no fellowship with darkness (2Cor6:14ff).

Hi!

…this is what is perplexing to me… how do people who ascribe to God unrighteousness, callousness and a sadistic spirit do not see the error in their theology?

How can anyone believe and preach against Scriptures and blindly follow Satan’s lure: ‘surely, you will not die; you will Be as He…’

True Scriptures tell us that it is God’s Will that we all should Live; yet, Scriptures also tell us that it is God’s Will that we Abide in Him so that He (Life) may ABIDE in us! Suggesting/teaching Salvation outside of God’s Means (Salvific Plan) is not only error but an appropriation of damnation.

In all our discussions, the key is not what kind of spiritual godly Christians we make ourselves into, but how we dwell in Him that HE re-makes us as He wills.

For He is our righteousness, He is our love; He is our godliness, He is our everything!

The heart of Christianity is when a person becomes a believer, because he or she has truly fallen in love with God. “For God is love; he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.” “For God so loved the WORLD, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever IS BELIEV-ING shall not perish but live forever!”

This is not an “external thing”, God and Jesus and the Spirit neatly wrapped and laying on the seat next to us as we drive down our roads-of-life, always ready to help if we ever need them.

“I am CRUCIFIED with Christ, it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the One who loved me and delivered Himself up for me.” Gal2:20

This thing we have – is a real, dynamic, UNION between two very real people. Creator (Jesus!), and creature (me, and each of you!). Only when He is real to YOU, can you make Him real to anyone else.

Please, make Him real in your hearts, and in your spirits! Eternity has already begun, in the hearts of those who KNOW Him! When we die, or when He returns – whichever comes first, it is no great change for us! For WE ARE ALREADY WITH HIM!


…yet, it is not a dynamic of “knowing” but a dynamic of Being/Doing:

22 But you must do what the word tells you, and not just listen to it and deceive yourselves.

(St. James 1:22)
…it is wonderful to know about Christ and God’s Salvific Plan… but it can lull us into a state of falsehood; we must be engaged in Christ, St. John 15:1-27:

1 ‘I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that bears no fruit he cuts away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes to make it bear even more. 3 You are pruned already, by means of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Make your home in me, as I make mine in you. As a branch cannot bear fruit all by itself, but must remain part of the vine, neither can you unless you remain in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me, with me in him, bears fruit in plenty; for cut off from me you can do nothing. 6 Anyone who does not remain in me is like a branch that has been thrown away – he withers; these branches are collected and thrown on the fire, and they are burnt.

12 This is my commandment: love one another, as I have loved you. 13 A man can have no greater love than to lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends, if you do what I command you…

16 You did not choose me, no, I chose you; and I commissioned you to go out and to bear fruit, fruit that will last; and then the Father will give you anything you ask him in my name…

26 When the Advocate comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who issues from the Father, he will be my witness. 27 And you too will be witnesses, because you have been with me from the outset.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

We are commanded to be “waterbaptized”. I also think it’s clear that those in Acts8 were waterbaptized but not yet saved, and those in Acts10 were truly saved but not yet waterbaptized.

I think it’s not appropriate to “argue waterbaptism on a Catholic board”. I hope that readers keep an open mind about specific passages (conspicuously two, Rom6:3-4, and Eph4:5), reflect Luke12:50 and Mark10:38; so those two verses probably do not intend “water”.

In the end, you (all Catholics here), and I (and most Protestants I know), have been waterbaptized; it certainly is not worth fighting, because in the end we shall be brothers and sisters with Jesus forever.

Hi!

…vocabulary and content… Scriptures speak on both Baptism (actually three, if we are to get to the nit and grit: water Baptism; symbolic Baptism in Christ, and Baptism of intent); the problem lies when we make the determination to uphold (make mandatory or necessary) one term or another while rejecting (dismissing or disqualifying) the term/s we do not support.

This is a strong issue that must be studied/exchanged in slow and diminutive measures. (The reason why I side stepped it when you first introduced it.)

There really is. I mean — look at you and me? One of us is Catholic, one of us is Protestant; and yet you and I agree on Scripture, and on the basics of salvation!

We have “one Gospel” — that Jesus came, died, and lived again, that each of us might live. That He took out our CERTIFICATE OF DEBT (“the wages of sin are death!”), having nailed to to the Cross (Col2:14). That salvation is a gift of grace and not by works, the works are the CONSEQUENCE of the change He wrought in us when we received Him. That we must abide in Him — just as in ANY relationship of love, we must pursue His presence with all our hearts!

That’s a lot of agreement, and that is one Gospel.
Yes, there are allot of points of convergence between you and I (as well as the various Christian groups/churches); still, there are points of divergence and these are just as important to iron out as the points of convergence are import to exploit and enhance.

Jesus will return; we all also agree on that. And EACH of us will find we made mistakes in understanding, and that we got some things right! We will laugh and sing in each others’ arms, and in His arms, when the Perfect comes and all errors will be done away with.

Until then, let our words build and not destroy, unite and not divide, promote Jesus whom we (say we) serve, that the world will know the truth in us and not hypocrisy.

We keep trying, in places like an “internet message board”.

And we keep promoting that the goal BEHIND the scene, is to grow each other in Christ; that we all end up in eternity with Him.
That is God’s Call (‘I pray not only for them… but also for those who will come to Believe…’):

11 And to some, his gift was that they should be apostles; to some, prophets; to some, evangelists; to some, pastors and teachers; 12 so that the saints together make a unity in the work of service, building up the body of Christ. 13 In this way we are all to come to unity in our faith and in our knowledge of the Son of God, until we become the perfect Man, fully mature with the fullness of Christ himself.

(Ephesians 4:11-13)

…and that no one is SHOCKED to find ANY OF US there!

…I think this is one of those “unavoidables.” Our ego and our built-in preferences cause us to err on the side of our will and desires… people who we meet are automatically rejected or embraced by our psyche; we make judgments (mostly wrong or based on false/missing qualifiers) for and against others as a matter of “breathing;” and… there’s so much mixed up theology in the world that, I suspect, many people who believe themselves to be Heaven bound will be stopped at the “pearly gates,” and many who we believe “don’t stand a snowflake chance in hell” might be there–even while we scratch our heads followed by a resound: :doh2::doh2::doh2:

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

:tiphat:

…yes, St. Jude is a wonderful read/study… there’s so much packed in such a simple Epistle (not even a whole page)…

Do you know any Jehovah’s Witnesses? Give them verse 9 — Michael (whom they insist Jesus is), did not have authority over the devil; Jesus did.

It brings to mind Isaiah (‘Lord no one listened…’) because this Epistle refutes every contention of predestination (double) and OSAS theologies… it also forces (‘in your face!’) issues that Believers must accept or willfully ignore (Epistle of St. Jude):

While “Salvation” is individual (each person must avail him/herself of it) it is not an independent existence–Christians are Called to One Body (Ephesians 4:1-32); there’s turmoil in the Church–heresies and false teachings are creeping in amongst the Believers, and those Baptized and Living the Faith are in danger of being led astray, away from Christ’s Gospel of Salvation; Christian Faith (Salvation) is not a done deal (as in once saved…)–rather, it is Genesis’ 3:15 Battle (more expanded version on Apocalypse [Revelation] 12) where those in Fellowship with Christ must adhere (abide) with Christ and Live out his/her Salvation (Faith); then we have the Communion of the Saints–Christianity, though predicated upon the individual obedience and acceptance of God, it is a Community: the Body of Christ.

Don’t you think — that perhaps the most dangerous ideas in Christiandom, is the idea that, “Don’t worry, you won’t really die (can’t become unsaved)”?



Of course, most who believe “OSAS”, also believe “Pre-Trib-Rapture”. So many cotton-candy-Christians cling to their breasts a lot of fluff, floating down idyllic streams with sunlight sparkling off the dewdrops on the shore; cool breezes caressing their curls, sipping ice-cold ambrosia sodas delighting in the soft life that Jesus has promised.

…except He hasn’t…

“Rapids, water-falls, thorny overhangs? Thunder lightning and violent winds? I don’t believe it!”

(Sigh.)

When the Tribulation is well underway, the “man of lawlessness revealed” (and we are NOT YET GATHERED — 2Thess2:1-3), how will they handle their BETRAYAL?

(…except they have not been…)

The Body of Christ is under assailment (Apocalypse 12:17)–this Battle will continue till Judgment Day (Apocalypse 16:1-11); these false prophets and teachers war against God attempting to dissuade man from becoming part of Christ’s Body and by coopting and corrupting God’s Gift of Grace; they also reject Christ’s Divinity and His Authority as the Only Lord and Master!

Deception is subtle; only those who “keep themselves in the Lord’s love” (bringing extra lamp oil), will survive…

Verses 5 through 11–depict the Battle as the Dragon and his follower continue to attempt against God’s Divine Authority and Salvific Plan, even and in spite of what awaits them!

Why would all the evil varmints waste their time trying to “kype a few shiny crowns”? No, they really want to take eternity away from us.

“Hold fast to what you have, SO that no one will STEAL YOUR CROWN!” Rev3:11

I’ll close with this passage (Jesus warns about the blind leading the blind)… these twice dead are a threat to the Breaking of the Bread (Holy Eucharist) as they urge Believers to despise and trample upon the Body of Christ–making the Communal Gathering into some sort of opportunity for social licentiousness.

They “hold a form of godliness”, but deny its power; they are selfish, greedy, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God.

Why do we tolerate them? Because we “don’t want to offend anyone”. Sigh.

A little leaven will leaven the whole lump; while we ASSOCIATE with sinners (how else to lead them to Christ?) – but we do not fellowship with them.

…and least, we’re not s’posed to…

 

[Gadgeteer]

I find that Ezekiel 18 addresses this issue exceedingly clear:

Oh, bother! You keep this up and you’ll NEVER make a good Calvinist…

We, the House of Israel (all Believers are House of Israel (Romans 9:1-33), are Saved through and In Jesus; we are Called to Walk in the Light (Spirit); we are Called to reject sin; yet, if and when we sin, we are Called to Repentance (to avail ourselves of the Sacrament of Reconciliation/Confession); to Turn to God and Abide in God.

When the Believer Abides in Christ there is no sin in him/her; when the Believer acts in his/her own wisdom/authority and disobey/reject God he/she is in peril of running from God and embracing sin. Scriptures mandate that the wages of sin is death–all who walk in sin will receive the wages of sin.

How can anyone read John’s First Letter, and not see the simplicity? As long as we walk in Christ we cannot sin; therefore, we must be diligent to walk in Him, our sinning only exposes our weakness towards sin, and our need to always and forever draw closer to Him…

In my estimation, the most salient Teaching in Ezekiel 18 is that Israel, man, has the freewill to reject sin and embrace God or to reject God and embrace sin.

Prominent in that chapter is the reality that a wicked man can turn to God and become righteous, but ALSO a righteous man can turn from God and become wicked!

Here again is clear writing that “is not open to interpretation”. Suppose I walk out and say, “The sky is blue.”
Someone says, “That’s just your interpretation.” No, the sky is blue, there is no other option. Most of Scripture is the same; “when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does wickedness, all his righteous deeds will not be remembered”. Per Reformed Theology, CAN a person BE righteous apart from a real union with God?

No.

CAN a person who truly belongs to God, TURN AWAY so that his wickedness invalidates all the righteousness he has done? No!

So — why are there still Reformed Theology followers?

(I certainly dunno! )

 

[jcrichton]

Do you know any Jehovah’s Witnesses? Give them verse 9 — Michael (whom they insist Jesus is), did not have authority over the devil; Jesus did.

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…the problem with them is that they continuously change the meaning/understanding of Scriptures… when faced with such indisputable factors they simply give the wheel a spin and apply a different meaning to it… have you ever spoken to them about Christ’s statement: “I Am?”

…“those in the know” simple spin it this way: ‘no, that’s not the same as Exodus’ “I AM;” it truly does not convey that Christ is stating that He Is the I AM… he is just not saying so, do you see?’ (or some other take as weak and convoluted as the Archangel Michael’s theory.)

Don’t you think — that perhaps the most dangerous ideas in Christiandom, is the idea that, “Don’t worry, you won’t really die (can’t become unsaved)”

?


Yes! …it is the reason why Christ stated that the devil is the father of all lies and that he was a murderer from the Beginning! Sadly, too many of us read through Scriptures and do not connect the correct dots! Who is the usurper but the one who promises everything that contradicts Christ’s Promise… the one who assures man that traveling through the broad gate and wide path gains him salvation?

Of course, most who believe “OSAS”, also believe “Pre-Trib-Rapture”. So many cotton-candy-Christians

cling to their breasts a lot of fluff, floating down idyllic streams with sunlight sparkling off the dewdrops on the shore; cool breezes caressing their curls, sipping ice-cold ambrosia sodas delighting in the soft life that Jesus has promised.

…except He hasn’t…

“Rapids, water-falls, thorny overhangs? Thunder lightning and violent winds? I don’t believe it!”

(Sigh.)

When the Tribulation is well underway, the “man of lawlessness revealed” (and we are NOT YET GATHERED — 2Thess2:1-3), how will they handle their BETRAYAL?

(…except they have not been…)
…it is interesting how some “Christians” actually seek the comfy Gospel (which does not exist) and embrace what the world offers them with little if any judgment other than “the here and now” self-gratification… Satan is the original Pied Piper who is followed by those who eagerly seek the world’s accommodations–it is as though Christian sojourn ends on this side of Eternity.

Deception is subtle; only those who “keep themselves in the Lord’s love” (bringing extra lamp oil), will survive…

Why would all the evil varmints waste their time trying to “kype a few shiny crowns”? No, they really want to take eternity away from us.

“Hold fast to what you have, SO that no one will STEAL YOUR CROWN!” Rev3:11

They “hold a form of godliness”, but deny its power; they are selfish, greedy, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God.

Why do we tolerate them? Because we “don’t want to offend anyone”. Sigh.

A little leaven will leaven the whole lump; while we ASSOCIATE with sinners (how else to lead them to Christ?) – but we do not fellowship with them.

…and least, we’re not s’posed to…
This is in deed a confused state! Though it is true that St. Paul stated that he became everything that those around were so that he may win them over to Christ… but I doubt that what he meant was that he would join in on their revelry and unrighteousness… rather, St. Paul was speaking to how he would communicate with them, at their level, so as to not seem antagonistic and pious and cause them to flee or reject the Gospel rather than to listen and be convicted… St. Paul is simply saying that, as Christ, he would not judge others as sinners and dismiss them as unfit for the Kingdom of God!

…so yes, we are to not pass judgment; yet, we must not join the unrighteous in their deeds as a means to compel them to join us in righteousness:

21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot take your share at the table of the Lord and at the table of demons. 22 Do we want to make the Lord angry; are we stronger than he is?

(1 Corinthians 10:21-22)
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Oh, bother! You keep this up and you’ll NEVER make a good Calvinist…

How can anyone read John’s First Letter, and not see the simplicity? As long as we walk in Christ we cannot sin; therefore, we must be diligent to walk in Him, our sinning only exposes our weakness towards sin, and our need to always and forever draw closer to Him…

Prominent in that chapter is the reality that a wicked man can turn to God and become righteous, but ALSO a righteous man can turn from God and become wicked!

Here again is clear writing that “is not open to interpretation”. Suppose I walk out and say, “The sky is blue.”
Someone says, “That’s just your interpretation.” No, the sky is blue, there is no other option. Most of Scripture is the same; “when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does wickedness, all his righteous deeds will not be remembered”. Per Reformed Theology, CAN a person BE righteous apart from a real union with God?

No.

CAN a person who truly belongs to God, TURN AWAY so that his wickedness invalidates all the righteousness he has done? No!

So — why are there still Reformed Theology followers?

(I certainly dunno! )

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…it is due to the herd mentality… many animals simply coast through life… they follow what the lead animal does… if you think of it, it is quite favorable… never having to think, never losing a moment’s peace, never having to feel responsible… some births use the thermals (winds) to soar with minimum effort… hot air seems to be the cue here!

…I wish that man would cease seeking shortcuts and comfy zones and engage God and His Salvific Plan head on and on God’s Terms!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

…this is what is perplexing to me… how do people who ascribe to God unrighteousness, callousness and a sadistic spirit do not see the error in their theology?

I don’t know. It’s such a “no-brainer” to me; God can have no part in sinfulness. RT’s do realize this; so they try to “insulate” God from sinfulness, creating sub-doctrines like “Compatibilism”.

“Compatibilism” denies God has causality in sin; it portends that men are corrupt, and justly deserve to perish because of the sinful choices they make, their choices are “FREELY” made. And those who believe, also freely choose to believe. But each person only “freely” chooses within the boundaries of his nature; if left corrupt he can only choose to rebel and perish, but if sovereignly regenerated he finds grace and believing irresistible.

It doesn’t work! There is no such thing as “justly-deserving-to-perish”, if someone can ONLY choose to sin and there’s nothing else he could do! He may as well be punished for having red hair, or blue eyes, or five fingers on one hand! And if God created men so that they will all be corrupt and sinful (the Fall was His sovereign predestined plan!), and then He capriciously chooses a few to irresistibly turn from wickedness, then God still has full causality in BOTH sinful rebellers AND righteous believers! It doesn’t change the fact that such a God would be a fraudulent judge, ultimate hypocrite, and insincere!

And it doesn’t work with so much Scripture; notably Lk8:13 — where some did desire to be saved (so much for unelected unregenerates able to ONLY desire sin and rebellion!) — they believed joyfully! But God didn’t WANT them? What was He doing behind their backs — snickering and laughing at their poor deluded desire for righteousness and eternity, He did not WANT them and they prove their unelectness by falling away from persecution/affliction/tribulation? Is God really that mean???

I’ll offer an opinion; if anyone is offended, please understand I mean no offense — it’s just that — someone who is truly in love with God, who really fellowships behind the veil in God’s presence, they have EXPERIENCED His kindness and love and joy — wouldn’t the idea of a “snickering/sarcastic/mean/vicious God”, grieve them? I’m just thinkin’…
:doh2:

How can anyone believe and preach against Scriptures and blindly follow satan’s lure: ‘surely, you will not die; you will Be as He…’

There are those (again I risk offending someone) — who, desiring a “golden ticket to Heaven”, but NOT desiring intimate union with God, seek solace and comfort in their “assured but undemanding cozy fluffy salvation”…

True Scriptures tell us that it is God’s Will that we all should Live; yet, Scriptures also tell us that it is God’s Will that we Abide in Him so that He (Life) may ABIDE in us! Suggesting/teaching Salvation outside of God’s Means (Salvific Plan) is not only error but an appropriation of damnation.

Above I said “undemanding”; He really does make demands of us. “Abide in Him, so that when He returns we will not shrink in shame (because of sin) at His coming”. And, be diligent to be approved". And, “be diligent to make your calling and election bebaios-steadfast, as long as these fruits are yours you will …not stumble (ptaio-become-wretched!), in THIS way the gates of eternity will BE provided to you!” (…citations to anyone on request!)

Not really demands, but commands – for “all men everywhere to repent”, to "lay aside the old sinful man and put on the new righteous godly man’, to “be perfect even as He is perfect”. These are things God expects of us, they are not optional.

…yet, it is not a dynamic of “knowing” but a dynamic of Being/Doing:
22 But you must do what the word tells you, and not just listen to it and deceive yourselves. (St. James 1:22)

Yes – “be doers, and not hearers only”. Yet, we are not saved by deeds. Jesus said “we are His friends if we do what He commands” (Jn15:14). What is critical to understand, is that we are not “striving to WORK, doing things to be saved”, but rather we receive His gift of grace by faith, which founds on our fellowshiping with His indwelling presence that — what we DO, is really HIM doing THROUGH us. Yes we pick up our feet and move them, but He directs our steps. We don’t focus on “doing-godly-things”, we focus on HIM. And Philip2:12-13 is fulfilled:

“Therefore, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is GOD who is at work in you, both to will and to work according to His good pleasure.”

And, Gal2:20 — which not “a desirable position but not necessary”, it also is central and not optional:

“I am crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me. and the life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the One who loved me and delivered Himself up for me!”

…it is wonderful to know about Christ and God’s Salvific Plan… but it can lull us into a state of falsehood; we must be engaged in Christ, St. John 15:1-27:

Correct – and excellent citations, fully fitting what I just cited above.

We “draw near to God that God draws near to us” — it’s all about intimacy with the real persons of Father, Son, and Spirit! Not our striving or strength or muscle, but His power through our faith.

More than anything, I really want everyone to “enter within the veil”, and experience the real presence of God. To really become acquainted with His personality, to actually fellowship with a conscious, loving, personal, Being!

 

[Gadgeteer]

…vocabulary and content… Scriptures speak on both Baptism (actually three, if we are to get to the nit and grit: water Baptism; symbolic Baptism in Christ, and Baptism of intent); the problem lies when we make the determination to uphold (make mandatory or necessary) one term or another while rejecting (dismissing or disqualifying) the term/s we do not support.

This is a strong issue that must be studied/exchanged in slow and diminutive measures. (The reason why I side stepped it when you first introduced it.)

Well, I don’t want to fight with anyone. I would just like people to consider two passages — Rom6:3-4, and Eph4:5. Linking these with Luke12:50 and Mark10:38, where “the Baptism” is Jesus’ death and resurrection, nothing to do with water, I hope people would at least consider that is what Paul is promoting in the Rom6 passage and the Eph4 passage. “Baptiso-immerse” into Jesus’ death and resurrection.

His “baptism-of-death-and-resurrection” came some time after His waterbaptism; when He says: “are you willing to be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with”, why would that necessarily mean at the moment of waterbaptism?

Clearly Peter ties “salvation” with waterbaptism in 1:3:21. How does that fit with Acts8:16 (where waterbaptism came before salvation and receiving the Spirit), and Acts10:47 (where waterbaptism came after salvation and receiving the Spirit)?

I know that “waterbaptism” is an important sacrament in the world of Catholicism. Our agreement is that “we are saved by grace through faith, not by works”. And whatever we come to believe about it, it must accommodate the above mentioned verses; like Lk12:50, Mark10:38, Acts8:16, and Acts10:47.

No response is necessary; as I said, I don’t want to fight with you or with anyone, but just to give “verses for thought”. And whatever anyone comes to believe, it is not grounds for fighting, especially in any church bodies.

Yes, there are allot of points of convergence between you and I (as well as the various Christian groups/churches); still, there are points of divergence and these are just as important to iron out as the points of convergence are import to exploit and enhance.

If I agreed with you completely, I would be Catholic; and if you agreed with me completely, you would be Protestant. It’s not my goal to “convert anyone” – but to make people think, to encourage them closer to God whom we all claim to serve, and to strengthen each other against worldly attacks.

And to consider each other brothers and sisters in Christ, to teach the words that the Apostles wrote, to build and not destroy, that we remain family when Jesus returns and we will be together with Him!

That is God’s Call (‘I pray not only for them… but also for those who will come to Believe…’):

Yes, absolutely! Good citation. I like more Heb3:12-14; we encourage each other that NONE of us become hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from the living God! We are partners in Christ IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end!

“Partners” – “metochos” (partakers/partners) is in Heb3:1 “in a heavenly calling”, 3:14 “in Christ”, 6:6 “in the Holy Spirit”, and 12:8 “in His discipline”…

…I think this is one of those “unavoidables.” Our ego and our built-in preferences cause us to err on the side of our will and desires… people who we meet are automatically rejected or embraced by our psyche; we make judgments (mostly wrong or based on false/missing qualifiers) for and against others as a matter of “breathing;” and… there’s so much mixed up theology in the world that, I suspect, many people who believe themselves to be Heaven bound will be stopped at the “pearly gates,” and many who we believe “don’t stand a snowflake chance in hell” might be there–even while we scratch our heads followed by a resound: :doh2::doh2::doh2:

We are commanded to “preach the Gospel to the ends of the Earth, to all people”. What do we preach? “Believe (easy!) and be saved”?

Or do we teach an intimate, indwelt union between two very real people — Creator (Jesus!), and creature (each of us!)?

I pray with all I am it’s the second!

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…the problem with them is that they continuously change the meaning/understanding of Scriptures…

Not only that, they rewrite things. In Col1 they add “other” — “Through Him all other things were made”. Someone made Jesus, and then Jesus made everything else.

(Also Heb6:19-7:3 — Jesus had no father, no mother, NO BEGINNING, but became a priest of the order of Melchizadek, and made like a son of God abides a priest forever.)

And they change words like “proskyneo” – accepting it means WORSHIP in Luke4:8 (“You shall worship the Lord your God and Him only shall you serve”). But then when JESUS is worshiped (Matt14:33, Matt28:9 & 17, Jn9:38) they change it into “OBEISANCE” (reverence, but certainly not worship). They try “obeisance” when PETER is worshiped in Acts10:25-26 (“don’t do that!”) — but are forced to admit it’s “worship” when John tries to worship the angel in Rev22:9 (“don’t do that!”).

Unilaterally assigning different meanings to please a doctrine should convict every JW that there is fraud going on!!!

when faced with such indisputable factors they simply give the wheel a spin and apply a different meaning to it… have you ever spoken to them about Christ’s statement: “I Am?”

Yes; for instance, John8:58-59; which when placed alongside Jn10:33, Jesus is absolutely undeniably calling Himself “God” – the Jews there, testified to it!

…“those in the know” simple spin it this way: ‘no, that’s not the same as Exodus’ “I AM;” it truly does not convey that Christ is stating that He Is the I AM… he is just not saying so, do you see?’ (or some other take as weak and convoluted as the Archangel Michael’s theory.)

That’s right. It’s the same error as Reformed Theology, begin with a doctrine and then bend the verses to fit.

Yes! …it is the reason why Christ stated that the devil is the father of all lies and that he was a murderer from the Beginning! Sadly, too many of us read through Scriptures and do not connect the correct dots! Who is the usurper but the one who promises everything that contradicts Christ’s Promise… the one who assures man that traveling through the broad gate and wide path gains him salvation?

“Apathy” and “slothfulness” are effective tools of the deceiver…

…it is interesting how some “Christians” actually seek the comfy Gospel (which does not exist) and embrace what the world offers them with little if any judgment other than “the here and now” self-gratification… satan is the original Pied Piper who is followed by those who eagerly seek the world’s accommodations–it is as though Christian sojourn ends on this side of Eternity.

That is an apt comparison; “Pied Piper”. Paul words it in 2Tim3, “wanting to have their itching ears tickled”.

This is indeed a confused state! Though it is true that St. Paul stated that he became everything that those around were so that he may win them over to Christ… but I doubt that what he meant was that he would join in on their revelry and unrighteousness… rather, St. Paul was speaking to how he would communicate with them, at their level, so as to not seem antagonistic and pious and cause them to flee or reject the Gospel rather than to listen and be convicted… St. Paul is simply saying that, as Christ, he would not judge others as sinners and dismiss them as unfit for the Kingdom of God!

Your grasp of Scripture and intent is excellent, JCR. That is exactly what Paul meant, “I became all things to all men”.

…so yes, we are to not pass judgment;

Why not? The only time “judging” is condemned, is when it is with hypocrisy. “For how can you condemn others when you are DOING the very thing you condemn?” Jesus said in Jn5:24, "Do not judge on appearance alone, but judge with righteous judgment!" Paul says (1Cor2:15) “The righteous man judges all things, but is he himself judged by no one”.

Our judging is the power of righteousness; it is the ability to separate right from wrong, to call evil, “evil”. Wicked forces seek to muzzle Christians with “JUDGE NOT!” While only One has the right to judge, we act as vessels for His judgment, that when we do judge others it is never to injure or destroy, but to convict and lead to Christ.

(Was Hitler “bad”? If we cannot judge, then we cannot say! Yes he was bad, and that’s a judgment!)

yet, we must not join the unrighteous in their deeds as a means to compel them to join us in righteousness:

Nicely said. We associate with the unrighteous, we love them and lead them to Jesus; we do not fellowship with them.

There was an account of a woman who wanted a divorce. Her minister asked her questions, and said; “Your husband does not abuse you, he provides for you, he treats you with kindness and loves you. Your best friend is non-Christian, isn’t she?”

the woman was surprised — “How did you know that?”

The minister said, “Because you associate with wickedness and take counsel of fools!” Her friend was goading her into divorce, because her husband did not meed the friend’s worldly standards!

 

[Gadgeteer]

…it is due to the herd mentality… many animals simply coast through life… they follow what the lead animal does… if you think of it, it is quite favorable… never having to think, never losing a moment’s peace, never having to feel responsible…

There is a saying, “if you ain’t lead dog, the scenery never changes!”

http://www.clker.com/cliparts/6/7/a/b/11971191861968446811johnny_automatic_dog_sled_and_team.svg

some birds use the thermals (winds) to soar with minimum effort… hot air seems to be the cue here!

…I wish that man would cease seeking shortcuts and comfy zones and engage God and His Salvific Plan head on and on God’s Terms!

Amen. Again, it’s “tickle-itching-ears” to pursue not just comfort, but sinfulness, or to pursue God and His righteousness on His terms…

 

[James248]

I don’t know. It’s such a “no-brainer” to me; God can have no part in sinfulness. RT’s do realize this; so they try to “insulate” God from sinfulness, creating sub-doctrines like “Compatibilism”.

“Compatibilism” denies God has causality in sin; it portends that men are corrupt, and justly deserve to perish because of the sinful choices they make, their choices are “FREELY” made. And those who believe, also freely choose to believe. But each person only “freely” chooses within the boundaries of his nature; if left corrupt he can only choose to rebel and perish, but if sovereignly regenerated he finds grace and believing irresistible.

It doesn’t work! There is no such thing as “justly-deserving-to-perish”, if someone can ONLY choose to sin and there’s nothing else he could do! He may as well be punished for having red hair, or blue eyes, or five fingers on one hand! And if God created men so that they will all be corrupt and sinful (the Fall was His sovereign predestined plan!), and then He capriciously chooses a few to irresistibly turn from wickedness, then God still has full causality in BOTH sinful rebellers AND righteous believers! It doesn’t change the fact that such a God would be a fraudulent judge, ultimate hypocrite, and insincere!

And it doesn’t work with so much Scripture; notably Lk8:13 — where some did desire to be saved (so much for unelected unregenerates able to ONLY desire sin and rebellion!) — they believed joyfully! But God didn’t WANT them? What was He doing behind their backs — snickering and laughing at their poor deluded desire for righteousness and eternity, He did not WANT them and they prove their unelectness by falling away from persecution/affliction/tribulation? Is God really that mean???

I’ll offer an opinion; if anyone is offended, please understand I mean no offense — it’s just that — someone who is truly in love with God, who really fellowships behind the veil in God’s presence, they have EXPERIENCED His kindness and love and joy — wouldn’t the idea of a “snickering/sarcastic/mean/vicious God”, grieve them? I’m just thinkin’…
:doh2:

There are those (again I risk offending someone) — who, desiring a “golden ticket to Heaven”, but NOT desiring intimate union with God, seek solace and comfort in their “assured but undemanding cozy fluffy salvation”…

Above I said “undemanding”; He really does make demands of us. “Abide in Him, so that when He returns we will not shrink in shame (because of sin) at His coming”. And, be diligent to be approved". And, “be diligent to make your calling and election bebaios-steadfast, as long as these fruits are yours you will …not stumble (ptaio-become-wretched!), in THIS way the gates of eternity will BE provided to you!” (…citations to anyone on request!)

Not really demands, but commands – for “all men everywhere to repent”, to "lay aside the old sinful man and put on the new righteous godly man’, to “be perfect even as He is perfect”. These are things God expects of us, they are not optional.

Yes – “be doers, and not hearers only”. Yet, we are not saved by deeds. Jesus said “we are His friends if we do what He commands” (Jn15:14). What is critical to understand, is that we are not “striving to WORK, doing things to be saved”, but rather we receive His gift of grace by faith, which founds on our fellowshiping with His indwelling presence that — what we DO, is really HIM doing THROUGH us. Yes we pick up our feet and move them, but He directs our steps. We don’t focus on “doing-godly-things”, we focus on HIM. And Philip2:12-13 is fulfilled:

“Therefore, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is GOD who is at work in you, both to will and to work according to His good pleasure.”

And, Gal2:20 — which not “a desirable position but not necessary”, it also is central and not optional:

“I am crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me. and the life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the One who loved me and delivered Himself up for me!”

Correct – and excellent citations, fully fitting what I just cited above.

We “draw near to God that God draws near to us” — it’s all about intimacy with the real persons of Father, Son, and Spirit! Not our striving or strength or muscle, but His power through our faith.

More than anything, I really want everyone to “enter within the veil”, and experience the real presence of God. To really become acquainted with His personality, to actually fellowship with a conscious, loving, personal, Being!

How then would you interpret James’s statement, “See how a man is justified by works and not by faith alone?”

 

[Gadgeteer]

How then would you interpret James’s statement, “See how a man is justified by works and not by faith alone?”

James, an excellent question. (I see by your “handle” that you love James! His letter really is good.)

"What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? That faith can not save him, can it! (me-dunamai)
If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and by my works I will show you my faith.” James2:14-18

You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected (completed);
and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God.
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." James2:19-24

Now, we know about Rom11:6, "if it be by works then grace is no longer grace!"
And we know about Eph2:8, “by grace through faith are we saved, not by works”.
And, 1Cor6:11, we WERE justified (and washed and sanctified) in the name of Jesus and in the Spirit (done deal, completed for us by Jesus on the Cross!)

So how do we accommodate these verses, with what James said?

Please consider:

"You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
“A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.” Matt7:16-18

And we see that a good tree cannot bear bad fruit (works!), it can only bear good fruit! And that fits exactly what James was saying!

Look at the warnings by Peter in 2:1:5-11, and Paul in 2Cor13:5; we are to test ourselves, to examine our works to expose the genuineness of our faith! And that is exactly what James is saying too, isn’t it?

We do not strive to do good deeds (as all other religions do, trying to “please God” by our righteousness), we strive to grow close to God that good deeds result. That’s the difference between Christianity, and “worldly religions” (all, like Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Buddhism, all of them!).

What do you think about this, James? Did I make the right connections?

As a “homework assignment”, please consider Heb6:7-12; how does “be diligent” connect to whether one produces good fruit (and is blessed) or produces thorns (and is cursed and burned)?

 

[Gadgeteer]

As a “homework assignment”, please consider Heb6:7-12; how does “be diligent” connect to whether one produces good fruit (and is blessed) or produces thorns (and is cursed and burned)?

It’s a question of “cause and effect”. Do we work on producing good fruit in order that we become diligent?

Or are we diligent in Christ in order to produce good fruit?

 

[James248]

James, an excellent question. (I see by your “handle” that you love James! His letter really is good.)

"What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? That faith can not save him, can it! (me-dunamai)
If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and by my works I will show you my faith.” James2:14-18

You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected (completed);
and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God.
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." James2:19-24

Now, we know about Rom11:6, "if it be by works then grace is no longer grace!"
And we know about Eph2:8, “by grace through faith are we saved, not by works”.
And, 1Cor6:11, we WERE justified (and washed and sanctified) in the name of Jesus and in the Spirit (done deal, completed for us by Jesus on the Cross!)

So how do we accommodate these verses, with what James said?

Please consider:

"You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
“A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.” Matt7:16-18

And we see that a good tree cannot bear bad fruit (works!), it can only bear good fruit! And that fits exactly what James was saying!

Look at the warnings by Peter in 2:1:5-11, and Paul in 2Cor13:5; we are to test ourselves, to examine our works to expose the genuineness of our faith! And that is exactly what James is saying too, isn’t it?

We do not strive to do good deeds (as all other religions do, trying to “please God” by our righteousness), we strive to grow close to God that good deeds result. That’s the difference between Christianity, and “worldly religions” (all, like Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Buddhism, all of them!).

What do you think about this, James? Did I make the right connections?

As a “homework assignment”, please consider Heb6:7-12; how does “be diligent” connect to whether one produces good fruit (and is blessed) or produces thorns (and is cursed and burned)?

I see James’s statement as saying that it’s not enough for believers to believe and not obey and love God. I make the connection with Paul’s statement in 1st Corinthians:
If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all my possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast,[a] but do not have love, I gain nothing.

Paul is speaking of three examples of genuine faith, in which that person gains nothing. Why? Because that faith lacked love!

Another question: when was Abraham justified?