Refuting Reformed Theology on "2 Corinthians 5:21"

[Gadgeteer]

Gadget:

What if justification is complete, and was complete for Abraham, but is not fully received until one’s faith is complete? Therefore works are part of “completing one’s faith”, but are not actually part of the justification. Doesn’t that make sense of all of the verses?

Not to me.

I guess I’m still not completely understanding how you perceive Scripture.
Gadget:

Jesus either completed our justification on the Cross, or we have something of our own to add to what He did to justify us.
De Maria:

Yes. We have something to add.

And that is exactly my confusion. To me, “we-have-something-to-add”, by definition means that Jesus’ sacrifice was insufficient. And that sounds opposite to Rom4:
De Maria:

Not the way we read it.

Verse 4:2 says “If it was works, Abraham could brag”. And 4:3 “Abraham’s belief was credited as righteousness/justification”. How do you read that?

But then you replied:
DeMaria:

Gadget:

Exactly right. James2:19 “You believe God is one; you do well, (but) even demons believe and shudder.”… Works make our faith complete; and completed faith receive Jesus’ justification, finished for us on the Cross!

Do you agree, disagree, gadget-has-hit-the-bull’s-eye, or gadget is off base?

Soooo — I am confused about which understanding you perceive?

So, is he asking, “Examine yourselves, test yourselves to see if you are justified. Do you not realize that Christ died for you, unless you fail the test?”

Welllll, Paul is saying to “look at your works, your works will expose if you are in Christ (justified and sanctified and regenerated), or not”.

It sounds to me as though he expects everyone to add something to their justification.

I don’t see that (you knew I was gonna say that!). We are either “in Christ” (and will display good works/deeds), or we are “in sin” (and ungodly works will manifest).

In fact, he uses the words, “add to your faith”, doesn’t he? In addition, he is speaking to people who are already justified.

Ohhh, this is a sore point with me – I’m glad you brought it up! From blueletterbible, the Greek is:

παρεισφέρω/pareispherō (applying)
πᾶς/pas (all)
σπουδή/spoudē (diligence)
ἐν/en (in)
σύ/sy (your)
πίστις/pistis (faith)
ἐπιχορηγέω/epichorēgeō (supply)

[list of godly qualities]

New American Standard, “supply in your faith”. You see, if we read “ADD to your faith”, there is an implication that there is a saved faith which LACKS these qualities! No, they’re not optional; plainly stated Peter says “he who lacks these is blind/shortsighted/FORGOTTEN-former-purification-from-sins”! Then Peter continues, "as LONG as these godly qualities are yours you are useful and will not stumble/ptaio/BECOME-WRETCHED, in this way the gates of eternal life will be provided (and in no other way!).

And that is my “sore-spot”, the implication that we ADD TO our saved faith, the godly qualities. No, we “supply-IN-our-faith” — that is, we make sure we have the (saved!) kind of faith which HAS these qualities…

Does James “jump ship” and declare that justification is in some part by our own works of righteousness?

I don’t think so. He is merely using a shorthand way of speaking. Like we do when we say, “the sun rose”. We know the sun doesn’t actually rise, but the earth spins on its axis until the sun is again, visible. But its easier to say, the sun rose. So, its easier to say, “by works we are justified.” Because we assume that someone doing good works is doing them from faith.

And that is what I said, "works do not justify us directly, but they justify us indirectly because they perfect our faith so that we are THEN (consequently!) justified.

…but I can’t fit that in with your statement, “we have something to add to what Jesus did on the Cross to justify us”.

They are all saying the same thing. This I know. We can compare two verses which are rarely compared but which show that St. James and St. Paul are saying the same thing:

Jams 1:22 Be doers of the word and not hearers only, deluding yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his own face in a mirror. 24 He sees himself, then goes off and promptly forgets what he looked like. 25 But the one who peers into the perfect law[l] of freedom and perseveres, and is not a hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, such a one shall be blessed in what he does.

Romans 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.

Those say the same thing, right? In any case, Romans 2:13 again shows that God justifies those who do good and righteous deeds. But not those who don’t.

You’re right. And to make that fit all of the “not-by-works” verses (Rom11:6, Eph2:8, Rom4:3 etcetera), it means that God justifies those who have the faith which produces those good and righteous deeds…

As everyone already knows, I perceive “works-are-our-measure”, not part of justification. Does anyone disagree?

No. I don’t.

You do not disagree?
(Reminds me of a line from “Corpse Bride” — “No, I do not not want to be married! I mean, I do want to be married!”) :hypno:

Two reasons.

1. Because if one has works to measure, one has faith and works.
2. It shows that we are justified again, after we’ve already been justified before. Thus, continual justification.

…or, perhaps, we continue in justification…
(and you knew I was gonna say that too!!!)

 

[jcrichton]

Yes. Provisionally, and conditionally. 1Tim4:10, "He is the Savior of all men, malista-chiefly (above-all, effectively for) believers!"

Salvation and justification for all, provision by God; saved and justified for those who believe, each of us chooses…

Sigh — it says He forces us to the DOOR. Jesus said, "If I be lifted up I will helkuo-draw/drag-forcibly ALL MEN to Myself."

This mirrors Acts17:26-31, where God puts all men when and where each can seek God and can find Him, He’s not far from anyone; all are commanded to repent, Jesus’ resurrection is proof to all.

So — each is forcefully drawn to the door, but each person fully volitionally chooses to enter in or to turn away. Jn10:9, Jn3:18-19, etcetera…

100% yes, fully Scriptural.

It’s a question of what “works”, affect; it reads to me that works only affect our faith, and it is a certain kind of faith that receives salvation.

But which comes first? “righteousness TO salvation”? Or "salvation and Jesus indwelling changing our hearts to HIS righteousness"? (I know you, and you understand the latter same as me…)
Reformed Theology is “double-predestination” — I don’t know how many times I’ve said, “There is no predestination (predestined-election) except double-predestination”.

You and I understand many things in Scripture, alike. And that furthers what I said about “Scripture often asserts as only one possible meaning, so that there is no such thing as ‘interpretation’. When only one meaning exists, we can establish spiritual absolutes by what they wrote.”

Hi, Gadgeteer!

Faith Comes from Hearing… we Confess with our mouth and we Believe in our Heart… it is by the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit that we are Convicted to pay heed (Listen and Obey) and to Witness (Confess Jesus Christ as the Risen Lord and Savior)… the whole process originates and completes (is fulfilled) in Christ:

2 Let us not lose sight of Jesus, who leads us in our faith and brings it to perfection:

(Hebrews 12:2a)
…our Faith is established on the Gospel (Word of God) that is presented to us; our Faith Calls (Move us) to Fellowship with God; the Holy Spirit Convicts us, in Fellowship, to Walk in Humble Obedience… this then causes us to become good servants (Stewards) and produce good fruits both for our own benefit and the edification of the Body:

1 So far then we have seen that, through our Lord Jesus Christ, by faith we are judged righteous and at peace with God, 2 since it is by faith and through Jesus that we have entered this state of grace in which we can boast about looking forward to God’s glory. 3 But that is not all we can boast about; we can boast about our sufferings. These sufferings bring patience, as we know, 4 and patience brings perseverance, and perseverance brings hope, 5 and this hope is not deceptive, because the love of God has been poured into our hearts by the Holy Spirit which has been given us.

(Romans 5:1-5)
…our good fruits complete our Faith and brings Justification!

Tangent
…I must apologize… as I read through your reply I saw some edges that could have been smoothed out… I hope that you understand that I am not making this a personal issue (the use of the term “you” is meant as an inclusive of non-Catholic understanding–I am not intent on putting words/terms into your post/expression).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Why does Scripture say?

John 15:
The Vine and the Branches. 1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine grower. 2 He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and every one that does he prunes so that it bears more fruit. 3 You are already pruned because of the word that I spoke to you.

Sounds as though God the Father dispatches all those who don’t produced good works.

You’re right. Yet our approach is not “focusing on doing more good works” (that’s what all religions do), but rather on drawing near to God that better works result. In Jn15 the implication is that “those who do not bear fruit, are not really abiding in Him”.

Have you studied Islam? They really believe we stand before God with our teeth clenched, knuckles white, while our good deeds are placed on a scale opposite our bad deeds! The scale swings back and forth, the pointer rocking between “live”, and “die”!

That’s not what Jesus brought at all; we stand before God and we’re asked, “WHY SHOULD YOU BE LET IN?” The right answer, is: “Because I have been bought with a price, I am not my own but belong to JESUS; the good works that I did, were because I was surrendered to Jesus and He did them through me!”

No. Just ask for forgiveness in the Sacrament of Confession.

2 Corinthians 5:20 So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

You and I are parallel on that.

Such a person who “wanders-away”; is he still “born/begotten from above”? No way. If he’s led back, is he born-again-again? Has to be.

1st. The Catholic Church Teaches otherwise. All that is needed is repentance and Confession.
2nd. Has to be? Says who? I don’t see any such thing in Scripture.

Establish that he’s talking to “brethren” – several times in chapter 5. (Some OSAS’ers claim “He was talking to unsaved lurkers AMONGST brethren, who wandered away from faith they never had, and came back to where they never were!”)

Uh, huh.

Then establish that “wandered-away”, is “psuche-soul thanatos-dead” — the Greek “thanatos” is physical death with implication of eternity in Hell. Finally establish that they are RESTORED TO life, “soul saved from thanatos-death, and sins forgiven”.

Hebrews 12:7 Endure your trials as “discipline”; God treats you as sons. For what “son” is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are without discipline, in which all have shared, you are not sons but bastards. 9 Besides this, we have had our earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them. Should we not [then] submit all the more to the Father of spirits and live?

To me, this says the same as Mark 16:16:

Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.

In other words, if you don’t believe and yet are baptized, its a form of sacrilege. It’s like the son who says he will obey the Father but then disobeys. He isn’t unborn. But he is disowned.

Again, establish what is really being said. First, he’s talking to “saved”, including himself “we”.

Establish that in the PAST, he says “all were partners of God’s discipline”. Not all-the-world, clearly he’s still speaking to the same presumed-saved audience. Then establish that he 100% conveys movement — “but if you are NOT disciplined, then you are not children but are illegitimate!” In no sense can it be talking to those who were NEVER disciplined — no, he’s talking to “you-who-were-amonst-all-that-WERE-SUBJECT”!

Verse 15 “do not fall short of God’s grace!”
Verse 25, “WE will not escape (if we) turn away from God!” (Again including himself!)

This is a powerful refutation of all views of OSAS; most will say, “You can’t become unborn!” Oh yes we can, if the saved can become UNSAVED, then we can become unborn; and “becoming-unadopted/illegitimate” is precisely what the writer said!

KEEP submitting to God’s discipline so that you do NOT become illegitimate, so that you live!

Correct. Nothing there about being unborn. But like illegitimate children, are born under false circumstances.

Above I listed “four established-points” — are they not established? Is he talking to the NEVER-WERE-saved? Is he talking to those who “were never partners” (in spite of verse 8)? Is he somehow not conveying “possible movement from WERE-SUBJECT, to NOW-NOT-SONS”?

What OSAS person can deny “yes-talking-to-saved”, and “yes-talking-to-WERE-PARTNERS”, and “yes-talking-to-those-who-moved-to-illegitimate/not-sons”?

What came out of Jesus side when He was crucified?
What does Scripture say we are washed with? (Eph 5:26).
Yes, we are cleansed by Jesus’ blood? Where do you get it? We get it in the Eucharist.

That’s another discussion; I promised I would not argue this with you!

 

[jcrichton]

**May not be perfected; the “Thief-on-the-cross” is perfect example of “sufficient faith”.**Close.

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…actually… “the good thief” did in deed produce good works:

• he was Christ’s first apologist
• he rightfully divided himself and the other sinner from Christ, the Just One
• he Confessed himself unworthy
• he recognized Christ’s Divinity
• he pleaded for God’s Mercy
• he Hoped for Salvation

…his Faith was not empty–it was backed up with tremendous Confession and Witnessing.

…what is quite interesting is how the parable of the laborers (St. Matthew 20:1-16) is fully brought to its bearings by this poor sinner’s embracing of the Faith–being Convicted by the Holy Spirit, he opens his heart and mind to God and understand clearer than Israel’s religious the event that is Unfolding in his presence.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Same thing. God pours out His mercy on those who keep His Commandments. God pours out His mercy on those who do righteous deeds. God’s Commandments are righteous deeds.
Gadget:

His mercy is poured out on all men, Rom11:32.

Not the same thing.

His mercy is universal in provision; truly “all men”. RT’s read Rom9:15 and think God is exclusive/wicked. No, mercy to all, and each chooses to accept or refuse. Have you held out Deut30:11-20 (especially 12-14), and the connected Rom10:6-10 to Calvinists? Deut30:14 is a foundational refutation of “Monergism”, the basis of Calvinism! But clearly God PUTS the “word-of-faith” in every heart, both in those who confess believe and are saved, and in those who disobey turn away and perish.

In context, St. Paul is talking about the gift of the Holy Spirit. All men do not receive this gift.

The Spirit, and God’s mercy, are optional. But to discourse with RT’s, we first have to establish that every last person is availed His mercy. Romans5:17-19 is also very powerful; an exact equality "SO THEN (came condemnation to all), EVEN SO (came justification to all). There’s no way to recognize “all-everyone-condemnation”, but then deny that justification also came to the same all, as to whom came condemnation!

That’s true. But mercy, in Rom 11:32, is not equivalent to the Holy Spirit.

His mercy, and the Spirit, are poured on all; and – each decides to receive or to reject.

At this point, I think we need to talk about “authority”. You see, I don’t interpret Scripture privately:

2 Peter 1:19 Moreover, we possess the prophetic message that is altogether reliable. You will do well to be attentive to it, as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20** Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation,** 21 for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God.

When what they wrote is stated clearly, there is no “interpretation” possible. διὰ λουτροῦ παλιγγενεσίας — “by washing (of) regeneration”.
Robertsons Word Pictures:

Through the washing of regeneration (dia loutrou palingenesia). Late and common word with the Stoics (Dibelius) and in the Mystery-religions (Angus), also in the papyri and Philo. Only twice in the N.T. ( Matthew 19:28 with which compare apokatastasia in Acts 3:21 , and here in personal sense of new birth). For loutron, see Ephesians 5:26 , here as there the laver or the bath. Probably in both cases there is a reference to baptism, but, as in Romans 6:3-6 , the immersion is the picture or the symbol of the new birth, not the means of securing it.

biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/titus/titus-3-5.html

When he says “probably” he is asserting an opinion; the Greek simply says “washing-of-regeneration”, and Robertson concedes “the immersion is the symbol of the new birth not the means of securing it”.

Immersed in JESUS, same as in Romans6:3-5. We’ve established that Rom6 uses five words interchangeably, died, buried, crucified, immersed, united — “baptizo” meaning only “immersed”, tied to Lk12:50 (where Jesus’ baptism-of-death has nothing to do with water), and Mark10:38 (where we are to be baptized with His baptism-of-death, and to drink His cup-of-death — again nothing to do with water). In Titus3 Paul did not write “washing and regeneration through waterbaptism”, he wrote “washing-OF-regeneration”. Regeneration spiritually cleanses us. Respectfully, if we go to an “authority” to add an idea into the text that the writer did not write, then we cannot take the text as “authoritative” and cannot argue any theology, Reformed or not.

If you feel strongly against these points, it’s all right if we disagree.

Do you (interpret Scripture privately)?

No. Again, when the writing says something simply, I object to adding in something external. Such as — Reformers read John10:26-28, as: “No one, not even YOURSELF can snatch you out of Jesus’ hand!” And it simply does not say “not-even-yourself”! That is an add-in!

Indwelling only occurs at water Baptism. That’s not in Scripture. That is Catholic Teaching. Authority.

Okay — then you and I have to dismiss Acts8:16 (baptism-before-Spirit), and Acts10:47 (Spirit-before-baptism) — by thinking something like, “special circumstances; does not apply to us.” We’re not saved the same was as Cornelius’ group was? The same as the Apostles were? (Acts11:15, 17!)

Again – if this is a strong point with you, it’s okay if we disagree. We are brother and sister, and desire to be family with Jesus forever; there is a time to fight, and a time to lay aside differences until Jesus returns. Then we will “know fully even as we are fully known”…

 

[Gadgeteer]

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”

Everyone is to submit to Christ’s Church.

Did you see the discussion on 1Cor3:1-3? The USCCB (an accepted authority) took the “carnal-Christians”, as saved; even though Paul says they had “jealousy and strife”, which in Gal5:19-21 plainly states “shall-not-inherit”. If the Bishops are right, then Paul is wrong; or there is some way to stamp “NOT REALLY” on one or the other passage, which is what I was complaining that Reformers do (stamp many verses with “not really”!).

In that discussion I warned, “If any reader decides the Bishops were not right, that is NOT a reason to storm into any assembly, Catholic or otherwise, combatively!” We are not to be sowing disputes factions and dissensions, but rather studying Scripture, and unearthing what the writers meant. If we establish something that someone else opposes, it’s just a good idea to keep an open mind towards the Apostles; they’re probably more authoritative than anyone who followed.

And?

And — Scripture was agreeing with you.

And yet:

Hebrews 6:10 For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love you have demonstrated for his name by having served and continuing to serve the holy ones.

I like Isaiah61:10 — “He has clothed me with garments of salvation, He has wrapped me with a robe of righteousness”. All my righteousness, is HIS — in and through me because He indwells me.

…without Him I am nothing, I have nothing; “none are righteous not one, ALL have sinned and fall short of God’s glory.”

We’ve already agreed that “once saved always saved” is a false doctrine. So, unless you’ve changed your mind, no need to revisit.

This is a thread on “refuting Reformed Theology” — I hope I have something of value to impart to other members, wisdom that RT’s cannot refute.

We just call it “reconciled”.

Reconciled – who? One who WAS in a place he could fall away from, a place where he could come back to. Zero of “OSAS”…

I’ll see what you say with the father daughter graduation car example I provided.

Why did she accept the car? How would you feel if she handed you some money for the car? It was a gift, and though she was wise to receive such a nice gift, the gift was all of you, given by grace; she made the decision to accept it.

It’s the same with us and God; all religions (every one) are based on works — Christianity is the only one which is NOT any works, it’s a gift of grace received by faith. AND, that gift changes our hearts, Jesus truly walking in union with us, so that we consequently do good works. Religion’s cause-and-effect is “you are what you do!” Please God by working hard against sin.

Christianity’s cause-and-effect is “You do what you are!” God changes us, and THEREFORE we do good.

Religions view us as “arrogant” to think that we deserve eternal life; they don’t understand – it would be arrogant if it was because of something we MERITED. But it’s not arrogance, it’s love — greater love has no one than to lay down his life for a friend; and God so loved the WORLD, that Jesus died so that whosoever believes (is believing!) should not perish but have eternal life.

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

Faith Comes from Hearing…

Yes — so “take care how you LISTEN!” (Lk8:18!)

we Confess with our mouth and we Believe in our Heart… it is by the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit that we are Convicted to pay heed (Listen and Obey) and to Witness (Confess Jesus Christ as the Risen Lord and Savior)… the whole process originates and completes (is fulfilled) in Christ:

It is not an exclusive inspiration — we need to use Acts17:26-31 more often against Reformed Theology. Blatantly stated by Paul, “God puts each when and where he can seek God and can find Him, He’s not far from anyone; He commands all men everywhere to repent, having furnished proof to all by raising Jesus from the dead.”

100% non-predestined-salvation, every syllable of Paul’s words…

…our Faith is established on the Gospel (Word of God) that is presented to us; our Faith Calls (Move us) to Fellowship with God; the Holy Spirit Convicts us, in Fellowship, to Walk in Humble Obedience… this then causes us to become good servants (Stewards) and produce good fruits both for our own benefit and the edification of the Body:

'Zactly. Jesus “helkuo-draws/drags-forcibly each to the door” (overcoming “total depravity” sufficient for belief), and then we decide. This is the response to charges of “PELAGIANISM” (or Semi-Pelagianism) — it is not our own inherent good, it is GOD who hauls every person to the door. Note well Deut30:11-20, tied with Rom10:6-10 — the “word-of-faith” is in EVERY heart and mouth, it is not too far nor too difficult; it is not in Heaven that one must go GET it and give it to us to MAKE us hear it, so that we can obey it (complete ruination of “Monergism”!). If we confess and believe we’re saved; if we turn away and disobey we perish.

…our good fruits complete our Faith and brings Justification!

Well said!

Tangent
…I must apologize… as I read through your reply I saw some edges that could have been smoothed out… I hope that you understand that I am not making this a personal issue (the use of the term “you” is meant as an inclusive of non-Catholic understanding–I am not intent on putting words/terms into your post/expression).

You post with great kindness and honor; I pray that I exhibit the same qualities.

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…actually… “the good thief” did in deed produce good works:

• he was Christ’s first apologist
• he rightfully divided himself and the other sinner from Christ, the Just One
• he Confessed himself unworthy
• he recognized Christ’s Divinity
• he pleaded for God’s Mercy
• he Hoped for Salvation

Touche’.

…his Faith was not empty–it was backed up with tremendous Confession and Witnessing.

Yes, it was. But he did not feed the hungry, clothe the poor, visit those in prison, minister to the sick (Matt25)…

…what is quite interesting is how the parable of the laborers (St. Matthew 20:1-16) is fully brought to its bearings by this poor sinner’s embracing of the Faith–being Convicted by the Holy Spirit, he opens his heart and mind to God and understand clearer than Israel’s religious the event that is Unfolding in his presence.

Yes – again, well said.

 

[jcrichton]

Yes — so “take care how you LISTEN!” (Lk8:18!)

It is not an exclusive inspiration — we need to use Acts17:26-31 more often against Reformed Theology. Blatantly stated by Paul, “God puts each when and where he can seek God and can find Him, He’s not far from anyone; He commands all men everywhere to repent, having furnished proof to all by raising Jesus from the dead.”

100% non-predestined-salvation, every syllable of Paul’s words…

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…yes, yes, and YES!:

20 Ever since God created the world his everlasting power and deity – however invisible – have been there for the mind to see

in the things he has made. That is why such people are without excuse: (Romans 1:20)
…for the mind to see–the mind of man, all of mankind!

…and what is it that people (these) have not an excuse (a claim to ignorance)?:

6 You are one of these nations, and by his call belong to Jesus Christ.

(Romans 1:6)
…that they belong to Christ Jesus because of God’s Calling!

…but who belongs to Christ, the “saved” or “predestined?”:

5a …all pagan nations in honour of his name.

(Romans 1:5b)
…it is my estimation that even Israel falls into this category because while it claimed the One and True God as its God, she disobeyed and follow the Pagans and their practices and their gods… so, by default, this passage speaks to all nations in the world.

…yet, are there some “elect”/“predestined?”

…yes!, these are elect and predestined to fulfill God’s Salvific Plan:

5 Through him we received grace and our apostolic mission to preach the obedience of faith

to all pagan nations in honour of his name. (Romans 1:5)
…and what is the goal/end result of Yahweh God’s Plan?:

7 To you all, then, who are **God’s beloved **

in Rome, called to be saints, may God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ send grace and peace. (Romans 1:7)
…that we all (humanity) become God’s children (Beloved) and Live in Grace (Salvific Plan) and Peace (Unity).

'Zactly. Jesus “helkuo-draws/drags-forcibly each to the door” (overcoming “total depravity” sufficient for belief), and then we decide. This is the response to charges of “PELAGIANISM” (or Semi-Pelagianism) — it is not our own inherent good, it is GOD who hauls every person to the door. Note well Deut30:11-20, tied with Rom10:6-10 — the “word-of-faith” is in EVERY heart and mouth, it is not too far nor too difficult; it is not in Heaven that one must go GET it and give it to us to MAKE us hear it, so that we can obey it

(complete ruination of “Monergism”!). If we confess and believe we’re saved; if we turn away and disobey we perish.
Yes! Through Divine Decree we are Ushered to the Narrow Gate (Jesus); yet, Divine Love and Mercy Compels God to allow man the choice (freewill) to take (make his) God’s Gift of Life or to reject it:

19b …I set before you life or death, blessing or curse. Choose life, then, so that you and your descendants may live,

(Deuteronomy 30:19b)

You post with great kindness and honor; I pray that I exhibit the same qualities.

I like to Believe that this is God’s acknowledgment of our quest for Jesus–bringing us to the Unity of the Body and placing His Word of Peace in our hearts and minds.

…with a humbled heart I thank you for your generous words; the feeling is reciprocal!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Touche’.

Yes, it was. But he did not feed the hungry, clothe the poor, visit those in prison, minister to the sick (Matt25)…

Yes – again, well said.

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…this again goes to “vocabulary.”

One of my brothers, once he left the Church, and quite out of the blue, during a visit to mom, started to preach to her about the “salvation” outside of the Catholic Church… he ended with the issue of images…
…being the youngest I remained silent throughout the ordeal… but as he left mom’s apartment I engaged him (out of mom’s earshot) letting him know that if he wanted to share Scriptures with mom he was very much welcomed but that he could not espouse it with a conversion agenda–which brought us back to the issue of images…

Scriptures speak, rightfully so, against “graven images.” A misunderstanding of “vocabulary” often pits non-Catholics against Catholics…

“Works” are not just “good deeds” done in certain manner which can be physically demonstrated by the act itself (giving “alms” to the poor; feeding the hungry, visiting the sick/imprisoned…); works are all of our deeds which are done in response to Jesus’ Gift of Salvation:

13 A man can have no greater love than to lay down his life for his friends.

(St. John 15:13)
Christ is both demonstrating His Love for man and simultaneously requiring that man extends himself to humanity in the very manner in which God has extended Himself.

…so while the “good thief” may not have fed the hungry or minister to the sick or clothed the naked, he Witnessed to all that Christ Jesus Is the Lord and Savior of humanity.

The issue is not so much the “works” (as in what “good deeds” we perform) as the purpose of the “works:”

16 In the same way your light must shine in the sight of men, so that, seeing your good works, they may give the praise to your Father in heaven.

(St. Matthew 5:16)

5 Through him we received grace and our apostolic mission to preach the obedience of faith to all pagan nations in honour of his name. (Romans 1:5)

12 Always behave honourably among pagans so that they can see your good works for themselves and, when the day of reckoning comes, give thanks to God for the things which now make them denounce you as criminals. (1 St. Peter 2:12)
…as Christ’s ambassadors we are Called not only to Witness through Preaching the Word but to Witness through Obedience to the Word–part of this means, as Christ, extending ourselves to both the Believers and the non-Believers.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[De_Maria]

Our rebuttals are getting a bit contorted. Let me see if I can cut to the chase.

…

No, I perceive that we must be “fully committed”. That we truly have to die to sin, and walk with Christ alive in us (Gal2:20).

If I were a Protestant, I would say that YOU don’t think that Christ’s sacrifice was sufficient.

Paul said in Rom4 “if Abraham was justified by works, he would have something to brag about”. We boast about nothing, except Jesus. (Eph2:9, Gal6:14)

Does this sentence make any sense to you?

Works don’t justify. God justifies those who do good works.

I haven’t been able to find your response to this example.

I told my daughter that if she graduated, I would give her a car. She graduated. I gave her the car. Who paid for the car? Did my daughter’s graduation add any value to the car? If my daughter took her diploma to the car dealer, would he exchange the diploma, which represents her works, for the car?

Can you see the relationship between our works and salvation? God doesn’t exchange our works for salvation. But He only saves those who obey His will and do good works.

 

[De_Maria]

…
(and you knew I was gonna say that too!!!)

That reminds me of this verse.

Revelation 22:11 Let the wicked still act wickedly, and the filthy still be filthy. The righteous must still do right, and the holy still be holy.”

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…yes, yes, and YES!:
20 Ever since God created the world his everlasting power and deity – however invisible – have been there for the mind to see in the things he has made. That is why such people are without excuse: (Romans 1:20)
…for the mind to see–the mind of man, all of mankind!

…and what is it that people (these) have not an excuse (a claim to ignorance)?

Nicely done! In fact, if GOD decided everything from before Creation, then those who perish have the best excuse of all time!

"God, I had no choice, YOU ORDAINED my wickedness! Are you going to JUDGE me when I absolutely had no other choice?!?!"

(Sigh.)

…that they belong to Christ Jesus because of God’s Calling!

Well, because of God’s calling and their answering. Remember Isaiah65:12? "I called, but you DID NOT answer, you did evil in My sight, and chose that in which I did not delight!"

Over and over I’ve said, “It takes a bunch of effort to believe in Reformed Theology.”
Effort, and resisting Clear Scripture.
…ironic that virtually all RT’s spout, "I used to believe as you; but then I (matured, learned, was led by the Spirit, etc.)

…but who belongs to Christ, the “saved” or “predestined?”:

…it is my estimation that even Israel falls into this category because while it claimed the One and True God as its God, she disobeyed and follow the Pagans and their practices and their gods… so, by default, this passage speaks to all nations in the world.

…yet, are there some “elect”/“predestined?”

…yes!, these are elect and predestined to fulfill God’s Salvific Plan:

…and what is the goal/end result of Yahweh God’s Plan?:

…that we all (humanity) become God’s children (Beloved) and Live in Grace (Salvific Plan) and Peace (Unity).

Yes! Through Divine Decree we are Ushered to the Narrow Gate (Jesus); yet, Divine Love and Mercy Compels God to allow man the choice (freewill) to take (make his) God’s Gift of Life or to reject it:

You know, the saddest thing about Reformed Theology, it completely fails to understand “LOVE”. In 1Cor13:5 “love does not demand its own way”; in what Universe would God deciding who loves Him back, not be “demanding His own way”?

I like to Believe that this is God’s acknowledgment of our quest for Jesus–bringing us to the Unity of the Body and placing His Word of Peace in our hearts and minds.

…with a humbled heart I thank you for your generous words; the feeling is reciprocal!

You and I are brothers; there is no doubt.

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…this again goes to “vocabulary.”

One of my brothers, once he left the Church, and quite out of the blue, during a visit to mom, started to preach to her about the “salvation” outside of the Catholic Church… he ended with the issue of images…
…being the youngest I remained silent throughout the ordeal… but as he left mom’s apartment I engaged him (out of mom’s earshot) letting him know that if he wanted to share Scriptures with mom he was very much welcomed but that he could not espouse it with a conversion agenda–which brought us back to the issue of images…

Scriptures speak, rightfully so, against “graven images.” A misunderstanding of “vocabulary” often pits non-Catholics against Catholics…

Yes; I’ve heard discussions about Catholic positions like “it is acceptable to worship images, they are placed there for that purpose”. I don’t know the Catholic position, but I suspect it’s similar to penance – not to pay for sins, but to encourage a contrite heart. As long as images direct us to God, what harm is there? Plenty of Protestant churches have images like in stained glass windows!

“Works” are not just “good deeds” done in certain manner which can be physically demonstrated by the act itself (giving “alms” to the poor; feeding the hungry, visiting the sick/imprisoned…); works are all of our deeds which are done in response to Jesus’ Gift of Salvation:
13 A man can have no greater love than to lay down his life for his friends. (St. John 15:13)
Christ is both demonstrating His Love for man and simultaneously requiring that man extends himself to humanity in the very manner in which God has extended Himself.

…so while the “good thief” may not have fed the hungry or ministered to the sick or clothed the naked, he Witnessed to all that Christ Jesus Is the Lord and Savior of humanity.

The issue is not so much the “works” (as in what “good deeds” we perform) as the purpose of the “works:”

…as Christ’s ambassadors we are Called not only to Witness through Preaching the Word but to Witness through Obedience to the Word–part of this means, as Christ, extending ourselves to both the Believers and the non-Believers.

It is as James said, “I by my works will show you my faith.”

I was touched by news of a group of American doctors working in Afghanistan. They repaired children’s cleft lips, performed surgeries on young and old, did many things. The villagers have heard anti-American rhetoric all their lives, but to them “America”, is laughing whole children, healed adults and brothers and sisters. This they know by direct experience.

And so too do the people we touch, know Jesus by our deeds! What damage we would do to Him if our deeds opposed our trying to share the Gospel!

 

[Gadgeteer]

Our rebuttals are getting a bit contorted. Let me see if I can cut to the chase.

If I were a Protestant, I would say that YOU don’t think that Christ’s sacrifice was sufficient.

Of course it’s sufficient; and — it is received by faith. As Paul eloquently said in Rom1:15-16, “the righteousness of God is revealed from beginning faith to ending faith; …the righteous shall live BY faith.”

Does this sentence make any sense to you?

Works don’t justify. God justifies those who do good works.

Yes — but — (you just knew I was gonna say “but”???)

His justification is not because of the works, but because of the faith which causes those good works. Betchya’ we agree on that…

I haven’t been able to find your response to this example.

I told my daughter that if she graduated, I would give her a car. She graduated. I gave her the car. Who paid for the car? Did my daughter’s graduation add any value to the car? If my daughter took her diploma to the car dealer, would he exchange the diploma, which represents her works, for the car?

I responded; among other things, I asked "what would you do if your daughter handed you a stack of money for the car? You’d be pretty chapped!

Can you see the relationship between our works and salvation? God doesn’t exchange our works for salvation. But He only saves those who obey His will and do good works.

Why do they do good works? To be saved? Nay, that’s the approach all religion has – “if you’re good you’ll go to Heaven, if you’re bad you’ll go to (other-place)”…

Rather, your and my understanding is that we draw near to GOD, and the good works are consequential.

 

[Gadgeteer]

Two reasons.

1. Because if one has works to measure, one has faith and works.
2. It shows that we are justified again, after we’ve already been justified before. Thus, continual justification.

Gadget:

…or, perhaps, we continue in justification…
(and you knew I was gonna say that too!!!)

That reminds me of this verse.

Revelation 22:11 Let the wicked still act wickedly, and the filthy still be filthy. The righteous must still do right, and the holy still be holy.”

Again, how I understand James2, along with Rom4, is that “we are not justified by works, else we would have something to brag about”. So when James says “you see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone” (verse 24), but says it in context with citing Rom4:3 (Abraham believed, and it was reckoned as righteousness [justification]) — verse 23 — the only way all that fits is if “true faith produces good works”. And that is what James said — “Abraham’s faith was working with his works, and as a result (his) faith was perfected.”

 

[jcrichton]

In fact, if GOD decided everything from before Creation, then those who perish have the best excuse of all time!

"God, I had no choice, YOU ORDAINED my wickedness! Are you going to JUDGE me when I absolutely had no other choice?!?!"

Hi, Gadgeteer!

Exactly! God would have to be the sickest sadist ever… to force His Creation to wickedness then exact Judgment on their inability to remove themselves from such wickedness… all the while “saving” those who may not even want to embrace righteousness and forcing these to exist, in perpetuity, in His Righteous Presence! :whacky::whacky::whacky:

Well, because of God’s calling and their answering.

Remember Isaiah65:12? "I called, but you DID NOT answer, you did evil in My sight, and chose that in which I did not delight!"
Correct, our Salvation is dependent upon our response to God’s Call; yet, the point is that all are Called to Jesus by God–the Will of Yahweh God is that all be Saved; conversely, it is up to man’s will to humbly engage and accept God’s Will.

Over and over I’ve said, "It takes a bunch of effort

to believe in Reformed Theology."
Effort, and resisting Clear Scripture.
…ironic that virtually all RT’s spout, "I used to believe as you; but then I (matured, learned, was led by the Spirit, etc.)
…in Catholic speak, it is the sin of Presumption (believing that one has obtained/gained Salvation on the wrong merits); the Jehovah Witness are kin at this… they rely on their "scholars’ and theologians’ skills rather than in the Word of God.

You know, the saddest thing about Reformed Theology, it completely fails to understand “LOVE”.

In 1Cor13:5 “love does not demand its own way”; in what Universe would God deciding who loves Him back, not be “demanding His own way”?
…and how can Love Condemn to eternal Damnation those who are “predestined” to an unrighteous existence while dangling Christ Jesus over their heads, as the carrot they will never be able to obtain?

…wouldn’t that be the direct and opposite meaning of Love?

…so, basically, Reformed Theology’s pronouncement is that God is Hatred and Vengeance, and Deceit!

I pray that such understanding be removed from man’s heart and spirit!

You and I are brothers; there is no doubt.

…guess I can it an:

Amen, brother!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Yes; I’ve heard discussions about Catholic positions like “it is acceptable to worship images, they are placed there for that purpose”. I don’t know the Catholic position, but I suspect it’s similar to penance – not to pay for sins, but to encourage a contrite heart. As long as images direct us to God, what harm is there? Plenty of Protestant churches have images like in stained glass windows!

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…yeah, the point is that the term missing was “graven;” the same God that forbade "graven: images also Commanded that images and symbols be made part of the Worship experience… so clearly it was “graven” images that were forbidden… interestingly enough, man holds many things above God as he places his attention/love on himself, his family, his possessions, wealth, power, and feelings… all idols; all “graven images.”

…as the Cherubs, the Church uses Sacramentals to bring us closer to God; remember those stained windows… when the majority of people were illiterate, the Church sought a means to convey the pages of Sacred Scriptures and Church history through the depictions on stained glass!

It is as James said, “I by my works will show you my faith.”

Correct! Espousing works to Faith demonstrates that we are in deed Walking in the Light.

I was touched by news of a group of American doctors working in Afghanistan. They repaired children’s cleft lips, performed surgeries on young and old, did many things. The villagers have heard anti-American rhetoric all their lives, but to them “America”, is laughing whole children, healed adults and brothers and sisters.

This they know by direct experience.

And so too do the people we touch, know Jesus by our deeds! What damage we would do to Him if our deeds opposed our trying to share the Gospel!


This is the saddest part of Christendom; too many times in our zealousness to Serve God we lose sight of the righteousness that is demanded from us as we focus on our practices or engage in omissions.

…clearly, the Word of God evade us as we fail to apply it to ourselves:

48 The one who did not know, but deserves to be beaten for what he has done, will receive fewer strokes. When a man has had a great deal given him, a great deal will be demanded of him; when a man has had a great deal given him on trust, even more will be expected of him.

(St. Luke 12:48)

48 But as for the dishonest servant who says to himself, “My master is taking his time”, 49 and sets about beating his fellow servants and eating and drinking with drunkards, 50 his master will come on a day he does not expect and at an hour he does not know. 51 The master will cut him off and send him to the same fate as the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and grinding of teeth. (St. Matthew 24:48-51)
…we may ignore the WARNINGS… but the useless servants will be cut off!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[po18guy]

…yeah, the point is that the term missing was “graven;” the same God that forbade "graven: images also Commanded that images and symbols be made part of the Worship experience… so clearly it was “graven” images that were forbidden… interestingly enough, man holds many things above God as he places his attention/love on himself, his family, his possessions, wealth, power, and feelings… all idols; all “graven images.”

Scriptural references to the “engraver’s art” or workers in clay or copper or bronze is nearly always in relation to the making of idols - false gods or alternatives to the true God. Chapters 14 and 15 of the Book of Wisdom contain a manifold condemnation of idols and their makers. Saint Paul was also opposed by Alexander the copper smith (2 Timothy 4), as that man relied on the making of idols for his income.

 

[jcrichton]

Scriptural references to the “engraver’s art” or workers in clay or copper or bronze is nearly always in relation to the making of idols - false gods or alternatives to the true God. Chapters 14 and 15 of the Book of Wisdom contain a manifold condemnation of idols and their makers.** Saint Paul was also opposed by Alexander the copper smith **(2 Timothy 4), as that man relied on the making of idols for his income.

Hi, PO!

…this is an interesting passage and many people don’t make the financial connection… having one God who rejects graven images vs. multitude of gods and family members and whatever else the whims may conjure… then there were the offerings, the priests, “virgins,” “prostitutes…” idol worship commanded a great purse!

Maran atha!

Angel