Refuting Reformed Theology on "2 Corinthians 5:21"

[jcrichton]

I’m thinking you and I agree on “we-have-died-to-sin, but have-become-alive-to-God-through-Jesus” (and are now walking in His righteousenss).

I’d bet a million dollars we agree on that, if I had an extra million…

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…it is difficult to argue points which constantly intertwine with each other…

…yes, we do come to a point of congruence… but we also have divergent understandings… while the candidate that is Baptized (ushered into the Body) is a new Creature (dead to sin and Alive, in Christ, to God) the Walk/Sojourn is not completed till the Parousia or personal corporeal death, which ever comes first. The Believer needs to maintain a Life of Righteousness, which on his/her own cannot be accomplished; hence, the Sacraments.

“But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.” 1Cor6:17

There is no water mentioned.
…the congruence further gives to divergence… you cannot see water Baptism because your connect is something other… now throw in v 19, and you got a whole mess of problems:

19 Your body, you know, is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you since you received him from God. You are not your own property;

(1 Corinthians 6:19)

You (non-Catholics) have “Christians” joined to Christ; Scriptures points to the Holy Spirit; but you infer that this happens in the absence of water Baptism… even though Scriptures attest that the Holy Spirit is Given to the Believer when the candidate is United to the Body of Christ… and the One Command Given is not: ‘go and Baptize in the Holy Spirit.’

We have further evidence of the necessary means of water Baptism as Scriptures attest that water Baptism does Save and as St. Peter Commands that those who have been integrated into the Body through an act of the Holy Spirit must be Baptized in water.

Knowing I risk offending someone (and stating that is not my intent), I perceive “authority of Scripture” as superior to any tradition. In that, we pursue solid exegesis, so that it is as if the Apostles themselves have joined the conversation. When their writings are clear, there is no such thing as “private interpretation” – really, any interpretation at all. “Interpretation” only exists where more than one meaning is possible. Titus admonishes us to “exhort with sound doctrine and refute those who contradict” — if any point of doctrine can be dismissed simply by saying “your-private-interpretation”, then there is no such thing as “sound doctrine” or “refuting anyone”…

So that is our solemn charge; to understand Scripture sufficiently so that we overcome the idea of “private interpretation”, whether or not it compliments or conflicts a given tradition…

The flaw to that exegesis is that it purports the splintering of the Body of Christ into myriads of fractions as a Scriptural Command since every “new” and “correct” body claims to have been Inspired by the Holy Spirit to renovate the Body in yet another vision.

Christ Himself when addressing matters of dispute/concern does not Command: ‘when your brother sins against take him to Scriptures, the matter will be solved as you find the correct passages…’ Rather Jesus expressly state that the Church is has the final Authority; that it is the Church that binds and loosens and that God has her back!

…now, Jesus says so… does Scriptures countermand what He states? No!

Scriptures attest that it is the Church that holds the Deposit of Truth… and when the Apostles speak, they do not state: ‘Scriptures have the final word;’ rather, they state: 'as we have Taught/Teach in all the churches (not multitude of divergent faith base theologies–One Faith, One Gospel, One Body, One Spirit (Holy Spirit), One Lord, One God.); there is no reshuffling… there’s no reinvention of the wheel.

So while it is true that some portions of Scriptures are clear cut as "water is wet,’ without an actual body of Authority every man becomes his own authority.

It would seem there are only limited possibilities for the “Seal of the Spirit”.

1. We are sealed with the Spirit, and cannot become unsealed (OSAS #2-3)
2. Those who fall away, did not REALLY have the Spirit in the FIRST place (OSAS “Catch-22”)
3. A truly saved person (who by definition has the Spirit), can turn away from Salvation and discharge Him

I’m not seeing how Eph1:13 “after believing we were sealed with the Spirit” — does not allow that seal to be later broken if a person turns back to unbelief and no longer

has the Spirit… http://elouai.com/images/yahoo/a06.gif
We are mastered/conditioned by our conceptions… if you come from Catholic Doctrine you see that there is more than “and” or “or;” you find that it is “and” and “or.”

Because we do not hold to a “Saved” license/shield/carnet that we carry about, we are able to see the Seal of the Holy Spirit as God’s Action on man: it is the placing of the sheep in the Father’s Hand. While nothing can pry the sheep from the Father’s Hand, the sheep can and does chooses to separate itself from the Father’s Hand. But the Seal has not been removed or lost. The sheep/son/daughter can always come to its senses, realize the futility of existence outside of the Father and Return to the Father… there is no re-regeneration needed!

This is part of Jesus’ Passion… part of His Agony at Gethsemane: that many who would Receive Him would look back in regret of loosing out on the life left behind… and would inevitably forsake the Kingdom of God for a ephemeral moment of pleasure, power, or contentment… the dog, returning to its vomit!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I have this “radical understanding”, that in all the Scriptures which admonish us to “not walk as heathens, darkened in understanding, excluded from the life of God” (or “don’t crave evil things”, or “don’t be immoral” etcetera), they are actually warning us to “be saved”.

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…I think that they are buying into a derivative of OSAS theology… like that mix of Catholicism and dark magic… (‘cause God…’)

There are 3 ½ valid reasons for divorce — all “A’s”.
Adultery (unrepentant)
Abuse (from Malachi)
Abandonment (the believer is not bound)

And the half is more opinion, “addiction” – is one who is addicted NOT abandoning his spouse? Yes he is…

Wow, when did Jesus place in those amendments?

…are you aware that if adultery would be a valid reason all “Christians” would need to do to remove themselves from an unwanted situation is hire a pro or seduce a fourth party and make the adulterous relationship known; then after a few weeks declare that he/she has seen the light and that the Holy Spirit paired him/her with his/her true “soul mate?” (…and repeat as needed, till you find the true, true, true, soul mate)

…the thing is, if a Christian does get a divorce he/she would commit adultery with anyone he/she marries or cohabites with…

…now, as most Bible only Believers rest on the Word, why is it that it is so difficult to accept Jesus at His Word as they seek ways to counter/circumvent Christ’s: “it was not so from the Beginning” and “man marries woman” and “what God has joined together let no man separate?”

Yes — but — the kind of immaturity which permits “willful sin” (like fornication, drunkenness, carousing) does not take years to overcome. It takes only a good sermon…

Actually, the immaturity is in the poor judgment and inability to overcome temptation; what you’ve described is the temerity of man to claim Christ as Lord yet sleep with the devil.

There are two verses Universalists think teach “Universalism” — no one knows who Peter was talking about “in prison”.

…so if we remove content from a passage it does not apply to anything?

Hah! “You cannot move faster than light” — because it would violate the radical:

T’ = Tº √(1-V²/C²)

Time slows down as one approaches the speed of light; if one could reach

the speed-of-light “C”, his time relative to the Universe becomes zero; all eternity passes in an instant. Obviously, if V exceeds C, the radical becomes imaginary, therefore it cannot.

BUT --** the Universe is supposedly 93 billion light years wide, but only 13.7 billion years old; obviously things moved faster than light**! Per people like Alcubierre, although matter cannot move faster than light, pockets of space-time, can. That physicist proposed a space-drive that “can get you to Alpha Centauri in less than two weeks” (traveling at the speed of light it would take 4.3 years!). "There is no known upper limit for the velocity of space-time; it is thought that at the point of cosmic inflation, minimum speed was 30 million billion times faster than light!"

(…which means it all could have “popped into existence” in an instant!)
Aha, the scientific American comes out!

…what you have described is the actual “Big Bang” moment: ‘…and God said, “Let there Be Light!”’

Isn’t is awe inspiring… how man can entertain “space-time,” “light speed,” and “quantum xyz,” but refuse to accept God’s Command to be Holy?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…actually, not; it is far more grievous to turn from God than to have remained in disbelief:
(citation 2 St. Peter 2:20-22)

Excellent citation – point taken. Jesus said (in terms of someone being difficult to convert), “with God all things are possible”. It reads to me that it is worse for them because of their willful apostasy… Similar to Rev3, “I wish you were hot or cold; but because you are lukewarm I will spew you from My mouth!”

…yeah, I missed the “re-” on that one!:

…it should have read as “The person is never re-regenerated.”

How can he not? Clearly when he is “wandered away from the faith”, and his sins uncovered, he’s not regenerated. If he returns (the if 100% implied!), he becomes regenerated.

…again…

We don’t believe in that thing of the Fold but not really or a Believer but not really.

They (Calvinists!) refuse to admit that the “Catch 22”, whoever is disbelieving NOW was never TRULY saved in the FIRST place — prevents them from knowing if they have salvation until their very last breath on Earth!

How can anyone know he’s a FIFTEENER (Luke8:15 — truly elected), and not just a deluded THIRTEENER (Lk8:13 – cruelly rejected!)? Honestly?

This, again, goes to vocabulary… remember what I’ve been trying to convey about “not everything at once?”

Catholic Understanding hooks in the Sacraments because we tie them to the Grace we Receive from the Holy Spirit. The Sacraments are the means by which we are tied to and operate in Christ. So Catholics have no problem understanding that we are Saved by God’s Gift of Salvation, which is Found in Christ, and that we Receive His Grace through the Enactment of the Holy Spirit upon us, and that as we Respond to God, through the Sacraments, we are engaged in that Faith (Believe in God) + Sacraments (Spiritual Obligations/Vows in God and to God) + Works (Loving God through our neighbor and ourselves).

If you are saying that “sacraments perfect our faith” (as James says works does in 2:22), then I have absolutely no disagreement with that.

I concur! …if you recall, at the beginning of our exchanges I intimated that you were in deed Catholic (you just did not know it, yet).

 

[Gadgeteer]

…yeah… kind of bordering on semantics… for the Believer can and does sin… but I’ll give you that one!

…well you have the ones who think that “ignorance” will get them to Heaven–that is, if they do not acknowledge sin/unrighteousness they are in the clear; then there are those who, even thought they heard from Christ’s own mouth (St. Matthew 7:21-23) hold on tight to the “feel good” theology–don’t judge, be charitable, excuse everything, when necessary cite “conscience” and/or “ignorance.”

As Paul says in Rom1:19-20, they can know God even by what He has made; they are therefore without excuse.

Yet, there’s no evading it:

…were we not warned that God cannot be fooled?:

Yes. If only we can promote to each brother and sister that we live life truly hand in hand with a very personal conscious Savior, and Spirit, we would spend less time trying to fool Him, and we would find sin harder to turn to.

…wasn’t he the guy who wrote: ‘I found the God who bit me on my behind?’

Might be; but now, his affairs are really in arrears…

Like the “American Dieter’s College” motto – "Life should not be so fast; it is often desirable to get a little behind…"

…well, there’s this:

…but I don’t think that was the link you were looking “Fore!” (I used the #4 on that one!)

Nicely done! Ever hear Steve Camp’s song, “Fire and Ice”? (…can never live together, it’s day or it’s night, it’s wrong or it’s right, one way or the other, in your life!)

I believe you are looking for the Connection of water Baptism and the Holy Spirit; if I knew how everything worked, I would put God out of His Job (coincidentally, it was once tried and God simply ridiculed him to no end: Job 38:1 thru 39:30); but I’ll offer a narrative:

When a person (adult or child) is Baptized, the element used is water; as the water is poured (or person is submerged/dunked) it is the Holy Spirit that Binds the candidate to Jesus’ Mystical Body–the Faith professed by the candidate (or the parent/s and God-parent/s of the child) as Seals him/her as the new Follower of Christ is ushered into the Faith/Body/Church–the cleansing of that person spirit/soul does not take place because of the pouring or dunking under the water but because of the Fire of the Holy Spirit Purifying the sinner from the sins (Original Sin and personal sin).

I wonder if we’d think any differently if the Pentecost “tongues-of-fire” still happened? That would impress alotta people.

…of course, “it is an evil and adulterous generation that seeks a sign…”

Thank you! …that thought has not occurred to me.

Correct!

This is why the infighting in Christendom is so unproductive; not only does it keep shattering the Body into more and more splinterings but it revels against Christ’s Command to Love one another and to be one in Him–it also serves to confuse those who are not claiming to Christ’s Fellowship as they use Scriptures to point out the discord in Christendom!

Yes, it does. A non-Christian once observed, "Christianity is the only system where members kill their own wounded on the battlefield." Let us not slay our own, but bring them cool water, bandages, encouragement closer to Jesus, and a comforting hug!!!

:grouphug:

 

[Gadgeteer]

…yes, we do come to a point of congruence… but we also have divergent understandings… while the candidate that is Baptized (ushered into the Body) is a new Creature (dead to sin and Alive, in Christ, to God) the Walk/Sojourn is not completed till the Parousia or personal corporeal death, which ever comes first. The Believer needs to maintain a Life of Righteousness, which on his/her own cannot be accomplished; hence, the Sacraments.

“Not completed”; yet, you and I do agree that “we can grasp salvation, as we possess Jesus now”. Such an idea fully fits 1John5:11-13; “you can know you have eternal life”.

And much more than just “sacraments to maintain a life of righteousness”, the secret of Christianity is a true union with a real person; and He is the power He happily wants us to exploit. He is our righteousness; He is our success. Passages like 2Pet1:5-11 and 2Cor13:5, admonish us to judge our position in Christ by the works we do. 1Cor5 also fits this…

…the congruence further gives to divergence… you cannot see water Baptism because your connect is something other…

You (non-Catholics) have “Christians” joined to Christ; Scriptures points to the Holy Spirit; but you infer that this happens in the absence of water Baptism…

(Acts8:16, Acts10:47…)

even though Scriptures attest that the Holy Spirit is Given to the Believer when the candidate is United to the Body of Christ… and the One Command Given is not: ‘go and Baptize in the Holy Spirit.’

We have further evidence of the necessary means of water Baptism as Scriptures attest that water Baptism does Save and as St. Peter Commands that those who have been integrated into the Body through an act of the Holy Spirit must be Baptized in water.

Yes — "(water) baptism saves you as an appeal to God for a clear conscience…"

The flaw to that exegesis is that it purports the splintering of the Body of Christ into myriads of fractions as a Scriptural Command since every “new” and “correct” body claims to have been Inspired by the Holy Spirit to renovate the Body in yet another vision.

Christ Himself when addressing matters of dispute/concern does not Command: ‘when your brother sins against take him to Scriptures, the matter will be solved as you find the correct passages…’ Rather Jesus expressly state that the Church is has the final Authority; that it is the Church that binds and loosens and that God has her back!

It’s balance, brother. The Apostles wrote things that are clear, and inarguable. In my (overused!) example to Calvinists, they assert 1Cor2:14 “proves one has to be regenerated (and given spiritual things) BEFORE one CAN believe and be saved”. No, verse 12 says one has to believe and receive the Spirit, only then are those spiritual things taught. There are no disputes or factions or splinters possible; there is only one meaning, and Calvinists have no defense.

…now, Jesus says so… does Scriptures countermand what He states? No!

Scriptures attest that it is the Church that holds the Deposit of Truth… and when the Apostles speak, they do not state: ‘Scriptures have the final word;’ rather, they state: 'as we have Taught/Teach in all the churches (not multitude of divergent faith base theologies…

So while it is true that some portions of Scriptures are clear cut as "water is wet,’ without an actual body of Authority every man becomes his own authority.

Perhaps; and (yes I know this idea will be rejected by most here) – the balance to that would be when an “accepted body of authority” makes a mistake; any body of believers is comprised of fallible Humans (each of us is), so full balance would be to do as Paul taught Timothy:

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth. 2Tim2:15

Orthotoméō — “to make straight and smooth, to handle aright, to teach the truth directly and correctly”. Divide.

We are mastered/conditioned by our conceptions… if you come from Catholic Doctrine you see that there is more than “and” or “or;” you find that it is “and” and “or.”

Because we do not hold to a “Saved” license/shield/carnet that we carry about, we are able to see the Seal of the Holy Spirit as God’s Action on man: it is the placing of the sheep in the Father’s Hand. While nothing can pry the sheep from the Father’s Hand, the sheep can and does chooses to separate itself from the Father’s Hand. But the Seal has not been removed or lost. The sheep/son/daughter can always come to its senses, realize the futility of existence outside of the Father and Return to the Father… there is no re-regeneration needed!

As I have argued, in Lk15 the “Prodigal Son”, per verses like Heb12:7-9, is not a son (no longer) but has become illegitimate. So too if we are sealed through faith, the seal no longer has anything to stick to if one becomes faithless.

This is part of Jesus’ Passion… part of His Agony at Gethsemane: that many who would Receive Him would look back in regret of loosing out on the life left behind… and would inevitably forsake the Kingdom of God for a ephemeral moment of pleasure, power, or contentment… the dog, returning to its vomit!

Ever argue with RT’s about “a dog ALWAYS returns to vomit, a pig ALWAYS returns to mire”? No, neither dogs nor pigs ever WANT to forsake vomit or mire! It’s the same as in the parable of Luke8; “dogs”, and “pigs”, are only labels applied to someone who dwells in defilements; just as in Lk8 “withering-trees” and “fruitful trees” are only lables applied to someone who falls to temptation/affliction/persecution, or who perseveres.

RT’s don’t understand the label, comes after the fact…

 

[Gadgeteer]

Because we do not hold to a “Saved” license/shield/carnet that we carry about, we are able to see the Seal of the Holy Spirit as God’s Action on man: it is the placing of the sheep in the Father’s Hand. While nothing can pry the sheep from the Father’s Hand, the sheep can and does chooses to separate itself from the Father’s Hand.

Now see – you are “accurately dividing the Word of God”! That is the exact response we make to Reformed Theologians!

“Nothing, NOT EVEN YOURSELF can remove you from God’s hand.” (RT doctrine!)

Jesus did not say “not-even-yourself”, John did not write “not-even-yourself”, it is a complete write-in that no one including Jesus intended.

But the Seal has not been removed or lost. The sheep/son/daughter can always come to its senses,

As I posted above, I connect Lk15 with Heb12:7-9; though we were subject to God’s discipline (Heb12:8b), if we are now without it (Heb12:8a), then WE ARE not sons but ARE illegitimate (Heb12:8c).

Solidified in verse 9 SHALL we not rather CONTINUE to be subject to His discipline, AND LIVE?

The Prodigal (Lk15:11-32) is the third story; verse 4-7 is “a sheep that was lost”, verse 8-10 is “a coin that was lost”. Jesus did not mean that the lost sheep still was owned by the shepherd, nor that the lost coin still was owned by the woman; what happens to us if we lose a valuable coin across town on a sidewalk? Does it still belong to us? No, it belongs to whoever picks it up.

“have become (past tense) subject to God’s discipline; but if we are (now) without, then we are not sons but illegitimate.”

What second interpretation to that is possible?

The sheep/son/daughter can always come to its senses realize the futility of existence outside of the Father and Return to the Father… there is no re-regeneration needed!

At the end of Luke15, the son became alive AGAIN. The son was nekros-dead, but now is zaō-alive. He was illegitimate and not a son, now he is a son (again).

This is part of Jesus’ Passion… part of His Agony at Gethsemane: that many who would Receive Him would look back in regret of loosing out on the life left behind… and would inevitably forsake the Kingdom of God for a ephemeral moment of pleasure, power, or contentment… the dog, returning to its vomit!

By returning to the vomit, they become a dog again. Violating RT’s view of Peter’s words (2:2:20-22), there was a time when they were NOT dogs and pigs, a time when they were escaped through the epignosis-true-saved-knowledge of Jesus.

 

[jcrichton]

Excellent citation – point taken. Jesus said (in terms of someone being difficult to convert), “with God all things are possible”. It reads to me that it is worse for them because of their willful apostasy… Similar to Rev3, “I wish you were hot or cold; but because you are lukewarm I will spew you from My mouth!”

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…yeah, in God all things are possible… there’s no sin greater than God’s Mercy; so there’s no sinner that God would not invite to Reconciliation. But by the same token, there’s no person that God would force to remain in His Love and Justice.

How can he not? Clearly when he is “wandered away from the faith”, and his sins uncovered, he’s not regenerated. If he returns (the if 100% implied!), he becomes regenerated.

…again…

yeah, we hit it again!

Catholic Understanding of regeneration is that one time while under the hold of Original Sin; man is regenerated, by Baptism, only once. He becomes part of the Fold/Body/Church only once through this means of regeneration. If a Believer sins he/she is not re-Baptized in order to re-regenerate him/her; the Believer must Reconcile him/herself with God through the Sacrament of Confession (Reconciliation). The Believer who sins loses Grace and remains in that state until he/she Reconciles him/herself with God. The Sacrament of Confession allows the Repentant sinner to regain God’s Grace.

They (Calvinists!)

refuse to admit that the “Catch 22”, whoever is disbelieving NOW was never TRULY saved in the FIRST place — prevents them from knowing if they have salvation until their very last breath on Earth!

How can anyone know he’s a FIFTEENER (Luke8:15 — truly elected), and not just a deluded THIRTEENER (Lk8:13 – cruelly rejected!)? Honestly?
…it’s similar to the Jehovah Witnesses being the 144K–I think that they have stopped using that one.

If you are saying that “sacraments perfect our faith” (as James says works does in 2:22), then I have absolutely no disagreement with that.

We see them as more than just perfecting our Faith; each one is an element of our Faith:

Baptism – Initiates (ushers) our Fellowship; Confirmation – reinforces our Faith; and so one; with each Sacrament we Receive a particular portion of the Holy Spirit’s Grace or Unfolding of Grace).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

]

Yes. If only we can promote to each brother and sister that we live life truly hand in hand with a very personal conscious Savior, and Spirit, we would spend less time trying to fool Him, and we would find sin harder to turn to.

Hi, Gadgeteer!

If people don’t heed Christ’s Own Command (St. John 15:1-10), I don’t know how to compel others to “do the right thing!”

I wonder if we’d think any differently if the Pentecost “tongues-of-fire” still happened? That would impress alotta people.

…of course, “it is an evil and adulterous generation that seeks a sign…”

There’s nothing wrong with a sing–as long as it Serves God’s Purpose and it is He Who Determines the Sign:

14 The Lord himself, therefore, will give you a sign. It is this: the maiden is with child and will soon give birth to a son whom she will call Immanuel.

(Isaiah 7:10-14)
Pentecost Signs happened because they were signaling the prophecy about the Holy Spirit and God’s Abode with His people:

27 And you shall know that I am in the midst of Israel: and I am the Lord your God, and there is none besides: and my people shall not be confounded for ever. 28 And it shall come to pass after this, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy: your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions.

(Joel 2:27-28)
…once God has made His Point; Jesus Words kick in (St. John 20:21).

Yes, it does. A non-Christian once observed, "Christianity is the only system where members kill their own wounded on the battlefield."

Let us not slay our own, but bring them cool water, bandages, encouragement closer to Jesus, and a comforting hug!!!
I pray that the Holy Spirit Convict all Christians into His Understanding and Way!

Maran atha!

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…yeah, in God all things are possible… there’s no sin greater than God’s Mercy; so there’s no sinner that God would not invite to Reconciliation. But by the same token, there’s no person that God would force to remain in His Love and Justice.

You know – you really have a heart for God; and have His heart in you. It is a blessing to know you.

yeah, we hit it again!

Catholic Understanding of regeneration is that one time while under the hold of Original Sin; man is regenerated, by Baptism, only once. He becomes part of the Fold/Body/Church only once through this means of regeneration. If a Believer sins he/she is not re-Baptized in order to re-regenerate him/her; the Believer must Reconcile him/herself with God through the Sacrament of Confession (Reconciliation). The Believer who sins loses Grace and remains in that state until he/she Reconciles him/herself with God. The Sacrament of Confession allows the Repentant sinner to regain God’s Grace.

Okay. I still perceive we are not that far apart.

…it’s similar to the Jehovah Witnesses being the 144K–I think that they have stopped using that one.

I wasn’t aware they had. Still – even if our goal is “paradise Earth”, the whole thing to be resolved (okay, things – two) — is that Jesus is God and not Archangel Michael, and salvation is not by works. Convince them of these two truths (especially “Jesus-is-Jehovah”), and they will forsake the cult.

(…uh-oh, did he really say “cult” in public???)

We see them as more than just perfecting our Faith; each one is an element of our Faith:

Baptism – Initiates (ushers) our Fellowship; Confirmation – reinforces our Faith; and so one; with each Sacrament we Receive a particular portion of the Holy Spirit’s Grace or Unfolding of Grace).

And I don’t think that really merits arguing with. You and I are close enough to celebrate Jesus together.

 

[Gadgeteer]

]Hi, Gadgeteer!

If people don’t heed Christ’s Own Command (St. John 15:1-10), I don’t know how to compel others to “do the right thing!”

We can’t; I was speaking of those who assert they are “brothers in Christ”…

There’s nothing wrong with a sign–as long as it Serves God’s Purpose and it is He Who Determines the Sign:

Oh, I was referring to Matt16:

The Pharisees and Sadducees came up, and testing Jesus, they asked Him to show them a sign from heaven.
But He replied to them, " When it is evening, you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red.’
"And in the morning, ‘There will be a storm today, for the sky is red and threatening.’ Do you know how to discern the appearance of the sky, but cannot discern the signs of the times?
“An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and a sign will not be given it, except the sign of Jonah.”

Pentecost Signs happened because they were signaling the prophecy about the Holy Spirit and God’s Abode with His people:

…once God has made His Point; Jesus Words kick in (St. John 20:21).

I pray that the Holy Spirit Convict all Christians into His Understanding and Way!

Amen – I join your prayer with all my heart; and I pray that God changes me into whatever He needs me to be, to reach them.

 

[jcrichton]

You know – you really have a heart for God; and have His heart in you. It is a blessing to know you.

Hi, Gadgeteer!

You do me great honor to place me in such esteem; I plea to God that we celebrate Him in our exchanges so that the Glory Be His (our labor in the Word in mutual cordial respect).

Please understand… I’m not one to take complements well… so if I fail to reciprocate it is not out of lack of respect or that I I do not hold you in high esteem… it’s just me being awkward.

Okay. I still perceive we are not that far apart.

And I don’t think that really merits arguing with. You and I are close enough to celebrate Jesus together.
I fully concur.

Please understand that I must expand on some issues in order to maintain fidelity with my Faith; there are Catholics and non-Catholics who venture in as visitors… if issues of the Faith are left hanging they might take with them a different understanding of Catholicism…

My aim is not to create division but to be as rounded as possible when exploring issues of Faith or the Word of God.

I wasn’t aware they had. Still – even if our goal is “paradise Earth”, the whole thing to be resolved (okay, things – two) — is that Jesus is God and not

Archangel Michael, and salvation is not by works. Convince them of these two truths (especially “Jesus-is-Jehovah”), and they will forsake the cult.

(…uh-oh, did he really say “cult” in public???)


…several years back they came at me with that one–I suspect that their intentions were to demonstrate their authoritative stance (the visible church/people of God); somehow, they did the math and all of the 144K of Apocalypse (Revelation) 7:3-4 turn out to be from their group… of course, as with all their eisegesis, they purposefully ignore/forget things like, “out all the tribes of Israel…” and the sequence which names 12K out of each tribe (and don’t confuse them with 12 being a symbolic number or with the myriads of those who washed their robes in the Blood of the Lamb…); they have to stick to the “script.”

…these, and only these are the ones who are going to Heaven and they are, all 144K, from their group. So I asked, “should we stop striving; since only 144K are going to Heaven and the numbers have already been selected?”

…they never came back after that… though it could have been because, as a parting greeting, I wished them that the Holy Spirit would Bless and Protect them (the big chief among them came back with, ’ what do you mean (or something to that effect)?’ In my fervor for good conduct and well-wishing I forgot that the Holy Spirit to them is (or was, they may have changed their theology… it can be fluid, at times) an “energy” or a “release” from God and nothing more.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

We can’t; I was speaking of those who assert they are “brothers in Christ”…

Oh, I was referring to Matt16:

The Pharisees and Sadducees came up, and testing Jesus, they asked Him to show them a sign from heaven.
But He replied to them, " When it is evening, you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red.’
"And in the morning, ‘There will be a storm today, for the sky is red and threatening.’ Do you know how to discern the appearance of the sky, but cannot discern the signs of the times?
“An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and a sign will not be given it, except the sign of Jonah.”

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…yes, a lot of people don’t get it… the reason why Jesus was so curt and seemingly abrasive with them is because of their disbelief; they were not interested in an actual Sign from God; they wanted to put him out… to see if they could control Him–I meet up with one of those people once in a while… they actually play on “show me” and then “I’ll believe!”

They are quite ignorant of God’s Wisdom as He already has Determined what is found in man’s heart:

31 Then Abraham said to him, “If they will not listen either to Moses or to the prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone should rise from the dead”.’

(St. Luke 16:31)
…but the really worst are the ones who have espoused ignorance of God’s Justice with freedom to engage in the human experience at their whim… they will actually argue that ignorance of sin/unrighteousness (what acts/actions are sin/unrighteousness) meets with a brander Mercy from God (God will not Convict them of their unrighteousness); yet, if you as much as mention Scriptures they would plug their ears so as not to listen (read/learn) what God’s Word has to say… if you warn them that we cannot choose to remain ignorant of God’s Justice (Demands against unrighteousness) they become combatant and quite irate–I find that the Truth not only set us free, but it can irritate those who are seeking soothsayers that would place them in Paradise at the end of the rainbow!

Amen – I join your prayer with all my heart; and I pray that God changes me into whatever He needs me to be, to reach them.

Amen!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[po18guy]

Just checking in. I see the conversation has nothing at all to do with 2 Corinthians 5:21…

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

You do me great honor to place me in such esteem; I plea to God that we celebrate Him in our exchanges so that the Glory Be His (our labor in the Word in mutual cordial respect).

Please understand… I’m not one to take complements well…

It wasn’t a compliment, per se’ — it was a simple statement of fact. You do embody Christ to others, His love and respect.

I’m pleased that I have nearly 400 posts here; imagine, you all tolerating me for so long! I think that says several things. First, I have tried hard to post with kindness and respect, I think I have succeeded. Of course, I’m always open to improvement – if anyone objects to something I say or a tone, please let me know and I’ll try to accommodate. Second, for Catholics to tolerate a Protestant (although we all have shown a good deal of agreement), says much about the people here. Other boards I’ve posted on have not been so respectful. So to everyone – thank you.

so if I fail to reciprocate it is not out of lack of respect or that I I do not hold you in high esteem… it’s just me being awkward.

There’s no need to be awkward. Beyond “denominational perceptions” (including even Protestant vs Catholic), we claim to foremost be brothers-in-Christ; do we manifest Jesus’ love enough so that the world will see Him in us, and will want what we have? There can be no greater success than that. We do have differences; no two people in the world, in or out of any church, agree on everything. We look forward together for Jesus to come, and to remain brothers and sisters — family with Jesus forever. Then our differences will be resolved; and it will be fun to see who was right and who was not-quite about what the Apostles taught.

I fully concur.

Please understand that I must expand on some issues in order to maintain fidelity with my Faith; there are Catholics and non-Catholics who venture in as visitors… if issues of the Faith are left hanging they might take with them a different understanding of Catholicism…

I understand; and I do the same. If I hear anyone saying things like “salvation by faith and works and the sacraments”, I will gently reference Rom11:6 (“if it be by works, then grace is no longer grace”) and Eph2:8 and the like. And if I hear someone talking about “carnal-but-saved”, then I will gently hold up Gal5:19-21, 1Jn3:5-10, and the like. But I hope to have more to contribute than to argue. I first posted here on Calvinist threads desiring to “give information” for future discussions between Catholics and Reformed Theologians…

My aim is not to create division but to be as rounded as possible when exploring issues of Faith or the Word of God.

Yes; admirable goal, same here.

…several years back they came at me with that one–I suspect that their intentions were to demonstrate their authoritative stance (the visible church/people of God)…

Yes — what would be the difference to merit “Heaven” (so few), that the majority can’t achieve but must settle for “Paradise Earth”? Jesus is God, and salvation is by grace and not by anything we do. This is where all religions (including JW, LDS, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, all of them) — where they all diverge from Jesus.

If you all are game, I just added something to my book. Initially I thought I had the “coup-de-gras” — Rev1:8 the Alpha/Omega is JEHOVAH/Almighty. Rev22:13-16 the Alpha/Omega is JESUS. But Watchtower claims a subject-change:
Verse 12 “I am coming quickly (to judge men)”, Jehovah not Jesus.
Verse 13 “I am the Alpha and Omega” again Jehovah, not Jesus.
Verse 16 a sudden subject change, now it’s Jesus!

But “I-am-coming-to-judge” per Matt25:31ff, is Jesus. It’s Jesus in 2Tim4:1, and others.

But what I missed, was Rev22:20 — John writes, “He who testifies, says ‘I AM COMING QUICKLY’ — yes, come Lord Jesus!”

Oops — in no way can verse 12 be denied from Jesus-is-coming; verse 20 says it’s Jesus who is coming, verse 12 says Jesus is coming, verse 13-16 can ONLY intend “I am the Alpha and Omega – I JESUS!”

I don’t see how they have any defense.

• I am coming
• I am the Alpha and Omega
• I Jesus …testify these things
• (He who testifies says) “I am coming” (come, Lord Jesus!)
• I am the Alpha and Omega JEHOVAH THE ALMIGHTY!

It’s absolute. Strengthened by Rev21:6 “I am the Alpha & Omega, I give the water of life”, and Jn4:14 “I (Jesus) give the water of life!” So initially I thought they had no defense; then I found out they just spray-paint verse 16 “different subject” So they would not even consider it “proof-of-Deity”. But now with verse 20 all their spray paint peels off, and it’s BACK to “coup-de-gras”.

Jesus is not some created being, not even Michael the Archangel; Jesus is Jehovah, THE Savior, “there is no Savior but God” Isaiah 43:10-11. Jesus always was the Savior, always will be.

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…yes, a lot of people don’t get it… the reason why Jesus was so curt and seemingly abrasive with them is because of their disbelief; they were not interested in an actual Sign from God; they wanted to put him out… to see if they could control Him–I meet up with one of those people once in a while… they actually play on “show me” and then "I’ll believe!"I think Thomas was kindof an exception. Still – Acts17:26-31 states that His resurrection was proof to all men.

They are quite ignorant of God’s Wisdom as He already has Determined what is found in man’s heart:

 

[Gadgeteer]

Just checking in. I see the conversation has nothing at all to do with 2 Corinthians 5:21…

Hi, Po-guy!

Well, discussions tend to meander. Hopefully we’ve had good discourse on “refuting Reformed Theology”. Imagine perceiving that God causes (ordains and sovereignly purposes) sin! And RT’s are comfortable and happy that “they are elect”, they have it made in the shade with lemonade…

…except they cannot know they are truly elected (like those in Lk8:15), and not just deluded-THINKING-they’re-saved joyful but cruelly rejected like those in Lk8:13 (God is laughing at their joy, they don’t realize He really created them to be wicked and to burn!). RT’s cannot know they’re actually saved, until their very last breath on Earth!

If you can get through the denials and protests, they’ll have no answer; “The Spirit tells me” – yeah, so said the Thirteeners while they believed with joy!

(Sigh…)

Behind it all, Reformed Theology accuses God of “ordaining/conspiring-with evil”, the same accusation which made Jesus furious in Matt12:25-31; no amount of Compatibilism is sufficient rubber-gloves to insulate God’s hands from the wickedness He ordained and ultimately caused!

(Sigh again…)

 

[jcrichton]

It wasn’t a compliment, per se’ — it was a simple statement of fact. You do embody Christ to others, His love and respect.

I’m pleased that I have nearly 400 posts here; imagine, you all tolerating me for so long! I think that says several things. First, I have tried hard to post with kindness and respect, I think I have succeeded. Of course, I’m always open to improvement – if anyone objects to something I say or a tone, please let me know and I’ll try to accommodate. Second, for Catholics to tolerate a Protestant (although we all have shown a good deal of agreement), says much about the people here. Other boards I’ve posted on have not been so respectful. So to everyone – thank you.

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…when I was around 6 or 7 I left Mass hating Jews–they killed Jesus Christ, my Lord and God; no one taught me that erroneous feeling… I picked up all on my own; soon God Taught me my error; I self-corrected and never thought ill of the Jews or anyone else for that matter.

Catholics have been at the receiving end of Protestantism (killing and destruction and propaganda); even after the dust settled, non-Catholics have made it their goal to “liberate” Catholics from the Church… while the Catholic Missionaries placed their lives in danger by seeking to bring the Gospel to all corners (figure of speech–the Cahtolic Church has never taught that the world is square ) of the world, non-Catholics have come right behind *reconverting *those same people (ever heard St. Paul speak about not treading on the work others made?); so it is understandable that “guards” come fully up when non-Catholics begin to “circle” (yeah thought a little visual about sharks would bring the point home ) Catholics.

Yes — what would be the difference to merit “Heaven” (so few), that the majority can’t achieve but must settle for “Paradise Earth”?

Jesus is God, and salvation is by grace and not by anything we do. This is where all religions (including JW, LDS, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, all of them) — where they all diverge from Jesus.

…and they make void Scriptures:

9 After that I saw a huge number, impossible to count, of people from every nation, race, tribe and language; they were standing in front of the throne and in front of the Lamb, dressed in white robes and holding palms in their hands. They shouted aloud, 10 ‘Victory to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!’

(Apocalypse [Revelation] 7:9-10)
While they put full emphasis on their “group” gaining Heaven, they fully dismiss the Scriptures, just a few verses after the 144K, where multitudes from all nations are found in Heaven… once I jokingly suggested that vv 9-10 prove that it is the Catholic Church that is the Visible Church of Yahweh God (Palm Sunday!); they were not amused!

If you all are game, I just added something to my book. Initially I thought I had the “coup-de-gras” — Rev1:8 the Alpha/Omega is JEHOVAH/Almighty. Rev22:13-16 the Alpha/Omega is JESUS. But Watchtower claims a subject-change:
Verse 12 “I am coming quickly (to judge men)”, Jehovah not Jesus.
Verse 13 “I am the Alpha and Omega” again Jehovah, not Jesus.
Verse 16 a sudden subject change

, now it’s Jesus!

But “I-am-coming-to-judge” per Matt25:31ff, is Jesus. It’s Jesus in 2Tim4:1, and others.

But what I missed, was Rev22:20 — John writes, “He who testifies, says ‘I AM COMING QUICKLY’ — yes, come Lord Jesus!”

Oops — in no way can verse 12 be denied from Jesus-is-coming; verse 20 says it’s Jesus who is coming, verse 12 says Jesus is coming, verse 13-16 can ONLY intend “I am the Alpha and Omega – I JESUS!”

I don’t see how they have any defense.

• I am coming
• I am the Alpha and Omega
• I Jesus …testify these things
• (He who testifies says) “I am coming” (come, Lord Jesus!)
• I am the Alpha and Omega JEHOVAH THE ALMIGHTY!

It’s absolute. Strengthened by Rev21:6 “I am the Alpha & Omega, I give the water of life”, and Jn4:14 “I (Jesus) give the water of life!” So initially I thought they had no defense; then I found out they just spray-paint verse 16 “different subject” So they would not even consider it “proof-of-Deity”. But now with verse 20 all their spray paint peels off, and it’s BACK to “coup-de-gras”.

Jesus is not some created being, not even Michael the Archangel; Jesus is Jehovah, THE Savior, “there is no Savior but God” Isaiah 43:10-11. Jesus always was the Savior, always will be.
The problem is that they have determined, through eisegesis, that they are right. On this I bring them to Beginning:

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to make known to his servants the things which must shortly come to pass: and signified, sending by his angel to his servant John, 2 Who hath given testimony to the word of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ, what things soever he hath seen.

(Apocalypse [Revelation] 1:1-2)
I asked them, ‘Who’s giving the Testimony, does Scriptures not identify Jesus?’ ‘So Who is the Active Subject, the Father or the Son?’

‘It is the Son that Speaks, Conveying the Word of God!’

…on the Archangel Michael I take them to Hebrews 1:

5 For to which of the angels hath he said at any time, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith: And let all the angels of God adore him.

(Hebrews 1:5-9)
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I think Thomas was kindof an exception. Still – Acts17:26-31 states that His resurrection was proof to all men.

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…yeah, I think that St. Thomas was the quintessential skeptic… he could not trust the word of others.

Wait – what?

There are NOT gold and leprechauns at the end of rainbows???

uch:

…that’s the art of the soothsayers, they get people to believe in anything–have you noticed how the pot of gold is not for sharing but for luring in the unsuspecting treasure hunters?

The bottom line is that “those who love sin avoid the Light, but those who love righteousness come to the Light.” There is great joy in righteousness; sin may have its pleasure for a season, but the end is terribly bitter. Never forget that "Jesus told us these things that His joy may be in us, and our joy may be made full."

That is our destination; love incarnate, infinite joy and fulfillment. Seeking HIS perfection, giving up selfishness.

…and there’s no escaping that; ever caught a toddler when up to no good… they can hardly put a couple of words together… but when caught doing something wrong their first reaction, well after that split-second freeze, is to cry as though they have been punished or chastised–their conscience Convicts them of the unrighteous behavior.

Still, man chooses to silence his conscience rather than to Obey God.

(I’m adding a paragraph to my book about Paganism – it’s all about hedonism, selfishness and self-gratification. And no matter whether it’s Neo-Paganism, Wicca, Druidry or Gwyddon, it’s all about self and sensuality.

And the symbols they use are the same as in satanism!)
As far as I know they all involve trickery, curses, enchantments, morphing into animals, and the quest for dominance, at all cost–there’s one who has been named father of lies and a murderer… so it is reasonable that Satan is the source of these religions.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…when I was around 6 or 7 I left Mass hating Jews–they killed Jesus Christ, my Lord and God; no one taught me that erroneous feeling… I picked up all on my own;

Ever see the movie, “Hand in Hand”? A Catholic boy befriends a Jewish girl. He stands up to his friends’ taunts “you killed Jesus”. You made me think of the movie…

soon God Taught me my error; I self-corrected and never thought ill of the Jews or anyone else for that matter.

Catholics have been at the receiving end of Protestantism (killing and destruction and propaganda); even after the dust settled, non-Catholics have made it their goal to “liberate” Catholics from the Church… while the Catholic Missionaries placed their lives in danger by seeking to bring the Gospel to all corners (figure of speech–the Catholic Church has never taught that the world is square ) of the world, non-Catholics have come right behind *reconverting *those same people (ever heard St. Paul speak about not treading on the work others made?); so it is understandable that “guards” come fully up when non-Catholics begin to “circle” (yeah thought a little visual about sharks would bring the point home ) Catholics.

There have been crimes by everyone—nowadays some look for the “Fish” symbol in the Yellow Pages, so they know who not to hire (biggest cheaters). Took my car to a shop that has a sign in front proclaiming Jesus, they quoted me $350 for clutch master & slave cylinder change, charged me $780 (I’ll never go back). Mom went to a shop with “Christian” in its name – $2600 to change an oil pump (should have been < $900). Gets back to “never-lose-sight-of-the-goal” (a phrase occurring several times in my book). We claim to follow Jesus; does it really matter who is Catholic and who is Protestant? Rather, do we really follow Him?

…and they make void Scriptures:

While they put full emphasis on their “group” gaining Heaven, they fully dismiss the Scriptures, just a few verses after the 144K, where multitudes from all nations are found in Heaven… once I jokingly suggested that vv 9-10 prove that it is the Catholic Church that is the Visible Church of Yahweh God (Palm Sunday!); they were not amused!

Still, the greatest witness to them is “Jesus is God”, and “salvation is not by works”.

The problem is that they have determined, through eisegesis, that they are right. On this I bring them to Beginning:

I asked them, ‘Who’s giving the Testimony, does Scriptures not identify Jesus?’ ‘So Who is the Active Subject, the Father or the Son?’

‘It is the Son that Speaks, Conveying the Word of God!’

…on the Archangel Michael I take them to Hebrews 1:

Nice – I had that in my book (about “the Father calls the Son GOD”), don’t think I completed it about not saying it to an ANGEL. Excellent point!

Jude 3:9 says Jesus had much more authority over the devil than Michael did; wonder why (if they’re the same)? And I think my argument about “proskyneo” is also good; who decides whether it means “worship”, or “obeisance”? Jesus accepted worship—either He was God, or He committed serious blasphemy. Changing the word into “mere reverence” whenever you wish (Watchtower does!) does not solve the conflict…

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…yeah, I think that St. Thomas was the quintessential skeptic… he could not trust the word of others.

If “thinkers” would join a think-tank, would not “skeptics” join a skeptic-tank???

…that’s the art of the soothsayers, they get people to believe in anything–have you noticed how the pot of gold is not for sharing but for luring in the unsuspecting treasure hunters?

Interesting – never thought of it as “bait”! Makes it all rather — “fool’s gold”, doesn’t it?

Did you hear the joke about the dying rich man? Wanted to take it with him???

…and there’s no escaping that; ever caught a toddler when up to no good… they can hardly put a couple of words together… but when caught doing something wrong their first reaction, well after that split-second freeze, is to cry as though they have been punished or chastised–their conscience Convicts them of the unrighteous behavior.

“Maybe if I cry hard enough Daddy won’t spank me”??? (Yes, you’re right, kids do know right from wrong…)

A small boy was misbehaving in church; after several scoldings, his father marched him up the aisle to the back door. As they passed through the door, the boy cried: “Pray for me! Pray for me!!!”

Still, man chooses to silence his conscience rather than to Obey God.

Scripture does talk about a “seared conscience”; sear it a few times, and it goes away. (Not a good thing!)

As far as I know they all involve trickery, curses, enchantments, morphing into animals, and the quest for dominance, at all cost–there’s one who has been named father of lies and a murderer… so it is reasonable that Satan is the source of these religions.

100%. In the “satanic bible”, the forward urges, “DO AS THOU WILT”. It’s all about selfish gratification and sensuality.

Along with our teaching the world that “God is real”, and that He truly LOVES each person, we also teach that God’s reality also includes justice. Hell is equally real; God may not send anyone to Hell, but their own selfish ambition towards sin certainly does. Rom2:6-11!

Jesus is not just a ticket outta Hell; He is love incarnate, He is peace and joy and eternity – there is no peace or joy through anyone else. But He is also a ticket outta Hell. No one goes to Hell who really believes in it!