Regarding if Jesus is God

  • Thread starter Thread starter garycouch
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Have you even read the Revised Nicene Creed of 381? It is the basic profession of faith in Christianity (with the Filioque in Latin Rite, without in Eastern Rite Christianity). It (or the Apostles Creed) is recited at almost every Mass (Easter is an exception, for example, where you renew your Baptismal Vows). This is the Latin Rite version with the Filioque (the words “and the Son” in English re: Procession of the Holy Spirit)

Printer Friendly

I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,

and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
 
Canvas said:
Have you even read the Revised Nicene Creed of 381? It is the basic profession of faith in Christianity (with the Filioque in Latin Rite, without in Eastern Rite Christianity). It (or the Apostles Creed) is recited at almost every Mass (Easter is an exception, for example, where you renew your Baptismal Vows). This is the Latin Rite version with the Filioque (the words “and the Son” in English re: Procession of the Holy Spirit)

Printer Friendly

I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,

and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
Click to expand...
Once again, nothing in there prevents the view of relational subordination within the trinity
 
You are really presenting an apologetic argument AGAINST Trinitarianism because inherent in your argument is the idea that Gd is divided into three gods. Jesus is submissive to the Father only in terms of His humanity NOT His divinity. He cannot be, because otherwise Gd would not be one but three separate Persons or beings. The Trinity is a challenging concept for all of us, but one thing it does not represent is the idea that Gd is three separate beings. Three distinct Persons, yes, but one nature and thus one Gd.
 
meltzerboy2 said:
You are really presenting an apologetic argument AGAINST Trinitarianism because inherent in your argument is the idea that Gd is divided into three gods. Jesus is submissive to the Father only in terms of His humanity NOT His divinity. He cannot be, because otherwise Gd would not be one but three separate Persons or beings. The Trinity is a challenging concept for all of us, but one thing it does not represent is the idea that Gd is three separate beings. Three distinct Persons, yes, but one nature and thus one Gd.
Click to expand...
once again I have not once said I believe God is divided into three gods, I have specifically said those are not my arguments despite other posters refuting arguments I have repeatedly said I don’t hold!
 
You are correct that you have not explicitly said so, but implicitly, based on the idea of obedience or submission, there is an implication that the First Person of the Trinity (the Father) is superior to the Second Person of the Trinity (the Son). Catholics and Christians in general do NOT believe this.
 
meltzerboy2 said:
You are correct that you have not explicitly said so, but implicitly, based on the idea of obedience or submission, there is an implication that the First Person of the Trinity (the Father) is superior to the Second Person of the Trinity (the Son). Catholics and Christians in general do NOT believe this.
Click to expand...
Right, but we need to distuingish relational an ontological (heresy) subordination . A view of relational subdorination is permitted and has been expressed by many saints
 
Last edited:
Such discussion is beyond my knowledge. Maybe a learned Catholic can tap into this.
 
thedweh said:
wow! this has been a very interesting thread to read. thetrinitysaves, your understanding of the trinity, which i fully support, is more in line with what the LDS Church believes than with what the Catholic Church teaches. you were right to quote the early church fathers on this, they were i fact subordinationalists.
Click to expand...
I appreciate the support
 
Wesrock said:
Again, the Trinity is one Intellect, one Will, not three
Click to expand...
You say that the Trinity has one will.
Scripture seems to say the will of Jesus is not the will of the Father.
Luke 22:42
42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
Matthew 26:39
O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
Mark 14
36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
 
No one is going to convince TrinitySaves that Jesus is God. This will go on and on. I agree with edward_george1, GOD BLESS
 
Last edited:
AlNg said:
You say that the Trinity has one will.
Scripture seems to say the will of Jesus is not the will of the Father.
Click to expand...
No. That was Jesus’ human will. Not the divine will of God the Son which is the same as God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. From Haydock’s Commentary for Matthew 26:39:
" Father, if it is possible. Which is the same, says S. Augustin, as if he said, if thou wilt, let this cup of sufferings pass from me. — Nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. He that was God and man, had both a divine and a human will. He was pleased to let us know what he naturally feared, as man, and in the sensitive part of his soul; yet shews his human will had nothing contrary to his divine will, by presently adding, but not my will, but thine be done."
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
@(name removed by moderator) would it be appropriate to post the diagram you posted under the thread about How Can God Be Three Persons?
 
Fauken said:
That was Jesus’ human will.
Click to expand...
So Jesus had two different wills? His human will was not the same as his divine will? then one Person of the Trinity has two wills. So if one person of the Trinity has two wills, how can it be true that the Trinity has one will?
 
Last edited:
AlNg said:
40.png
Fauken:
That was Jesus’ human will.
Click to expand...
So Jesus had two different wills?
Click to expand...
Yes.
His human will was not the same as his divine will?
Click to expand...
Correct.
then one Person of the Trinity has two wills.
Click to expand...
Christians profess that there is one divine will, not three divine wills.
So if one person of the Trinity has two wills, how can it be true that the Trinity has one will?
Click to expand...
The human will is not part of or intrinsic to the divine nature, and previously I was focusing simply on the divine nature itself. But yes, there is a human will united to the divine nature and in submission to the one divine will. Speaking of the Trinity, there is only one divine will.

The human will of Jesus is not divine or God, but the person of Jesus as a whole is. This kind of gets into the whole Nestorian debate.
 
Last edited:
TheTrinitySaves said:
John 14:28
Click to expand...
John 14:28 You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I am coming to you.’ If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I.

here Jesus humanity is speaking ,as a representation of and on behalf of man,he his giving due reverence and respect to the Father, as an example for all of us to follow, Philippians 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited,7 but emptied himself,taking the form of a slave,being born in human likeness.
And being found in human form,8 he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death—
even death on a cross.9 Therefore God also highly exalted him and gave him the name that is above every name,10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend,in heaven and on earth and under the earth,11 and every tongue should confessthat Jesus Christ is Lord,

John 3:35 The Father loves the Son and has placed all things in his hands.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being , 10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through him; yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to what was his own and his own people did not accept him. 12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood or of the will of the flesh or of the will of man, but of God.14 And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father’s only son, full of grace and truth.
John 17 After Jesus had spoken these words, he looked up to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son so that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all people, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4 I glorified you on earth by finishing the work that you gave me to do. 5 So now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had in your presence before the world existed.10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine; and I have been glorified in them.

John 10:30 30 The Father and I are one.”
 
Last edited:
TheTrinitySaves said:
Right but the son is perfectly obedient to the father
Click to expand...
yes because man (humanity are disobedient ) so Jesus true God and true Man, gave an example for us to follow as in Hebrews 12:2 looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the sake of the joy that was set before him endured the cross, disregarding its shame, and has taken his seat at the right hand of the throne of God

John 10:30 The Father and I are one.” This is an important aspect of the trinity is in it!
 
Last edited:
TheTrinitySaves said:
but he is not the same as the father who is the creator
Click to expand...
John 10:29 What my Father has given me is greater than all else, and no one can snatch it out of the Father’s hand. 30 The Father and I are one.” Jesus is equal to the Father in all thing’s, and he create ,and give life and created and gave eyes to the blind even though they where no eyes balls born blind
CCC 262 The Incarnation of God’s Son reveals that God is the eternal Father and that the Son is consubstantial with the Father, which means that, in the Father and with the Father the Son is one and the same God.
John 5:22 The Father judges no one but has given all judgment to the Son,

John 5:27 and he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man.

John 5:25“Very truly, I tell you, the hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
 
Jn 1:1 – the Word was God

Jn 1:14-15 – glory of Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth

Jn 8:19 – if you knew me, you would know my Father

Jn 8:58-59 – I assure you, before Abraham was, I AM

Jn 10:30-33 – the Father and I are one (see Ex 3:14, 20:7; Lev 19:12, 24:14-16)

Jn 10:38 – the Father is in me and I am in the Father

Jn 12:45 – whosoever sees me sees the one who sent me
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top