Relativism confused as Christianity is gaining Muslims converts.

[Ella]

Allow me to clarify.

If you have only sons, and they have sex outside of marriage, they suffer the same fate as women who have sex outside of marriage do.

I am sad that anyone would say they only want sons,
as this is an excuse used in China to justify abortions.

 

[KindredSoul]

The OP has said several times that it’s sad that the Christians of the West don’t display the proper Fruits of Christianity. In fact, the OP has stated that “You shall know them by their fruits” a direct quote from the Bible…

You’ve answered your own question: If the “Christians” of the West don’t display the proper Fruits, and “You shall know them by their fruits”, then those “Christians” aren’t Christians! Plainly and simply!

Perhaps you will counter that the Muslim countries live up to Muslim ideals more so…well, that’s very simple. Muslim countries do not separate Church from state the way that we do. Some Catholics, from what I gather, actually mourn the separation between Church and State having reached it’s massive extent. Now, it would never be good for Christianity to inflict harsh, physical, death punishments upon sin…but our separation between Church and State has gone so far as to make our Country secular. Yes, Christian ideals spurred the “Free West’s” ideas…but you’d be surprised how many Deists (who are by definition not Christian, and include Jefferson among several other founding fathers) had a hand in the “Free West’s” formation. Thus Christianity is not the source of our current dilemma…secularism is. Deism was almost identical to secular ideals…in Deism, no one is judged by what they believe so much as by trying to be “good” to people. Being “good” has a different meaning in different centuries, and is a very questionable grounds upon which to base morality…non-the-less, it is Deism upon which our “Free West” ideals mostly come from. Don’t ignore that the “Free” immoral world as we know it was spawned mostly by doubt in religion, not by Christians, and especially not by Catholics. Had, for instance, the Reformation not occured, most would have shared a common faith, and Separation between Church and State would’ve been nearly impractical! Therefore, your premise that the “Christian” (by which you seemingly include Catholic) West spawned such an immoral atmosphere is a flawed premise. It is the Deist, Humanist, Dissenting West that spawned that atmosphere. Many modern Western Catholics who behave no differently–and therefore by their fruits are false Christians, mind you-- have lost their Christian identity in the admittedly devilish and decadent culture that has come upon us as a result. Christian and willfully immoral are, in fact, contradictory phrases. It’s an oxymoron. (…To be Continued)

 

[KindredSoul]

(…Continued)
You might also counter that all the US muslims you see are moral, in spite of the corrupt society, whilst US Christians are not. For one thing, we’ve already established that the US “Christians” who live immorally are not truly Christians. That point quite aside (assuming that your real point is that there are more true Muslims in the US than true Christians), Muslims are just easier to identify. Muslim women–and often men–wear very distinct dress. Christian women, even if dressed modestly, don’t wear something outrageously distinct from society. You may pass a Christian woman in your local grocery store who is well modestly dressed…you only see her once, and you may assume that that’s just her on a good day, and that she will tomorrow be showing as much skin as any immoral woman. However, that’s not fair. You may meet countless true Christian women like this; they just don’t wear such distinctive dress that you realize they are Christian upon merely encountering them. You shall, after all, know them by their fruits, not by distinctive dress (by which I mean special coverings, not modesty). If this is possible, and I know I see countless modestly dressed females every time I venture out, it’s unfair to assume that there are hardly any True Christians out there.

Finally, even if you were right, and there were very few True Christians in the West, refer back to the beginning of my point and you’ll realize that this is no flaw of Christianity, much less of Catholicism…it is instead a flaw of the Hyper-Separation between Church and State which came as a result of Deism, Dissent, and other distinctly UnCatholic, in many cases Un-Christian (period) sources. So, Western Decadence cannot be blamed on Christianity (particularly Catholicism) nearly so much as on those who have rebelled against it, and who (such as some of the unChristian founding fathers, etc.) just happened to get in a good position to make their beliefs into the basis of all of Western Society.

I hope this helps, and God bless!

 

[inJESUS]

well, the solution is : CHRISTIAN SHARIA…can you apply it Saint Michael? can you oblige American people with religion? we are trying to tell you it’s NOT Christianity that causes it.it is the CONTRARY…when all you seem to do is blaming Christianity.

 

[exoflare]

Islam is incompatible with free society, and separation of church and state. They are not capable of understanding it.

When Muslims are forced to live as the minority in a “kafir” country they will put up with it, but believe me as soon as they grow enough in number they set out to change things!

 

[KindredSoul]

The OP has said several times that it’s sad that the Christians of the West don’t display the proper Fruits of Christianity. In fact, the OP has stated that “You shall know them by their fruits” a direct quote from the Bible…

You’ve answered your own question: If the “Christians” of the West don’t display the proper Fruits, and “You shall know them by their fruits”, then those “Christians” aren’t Christians! Plainly and simply!

I got to thinking, and I just wanted to clarify that this statement applies to men every bit as much as women. I should hope you know this, OP, but I just want to be sure (if not for your sake then for any other reader). Men having a higher sex drive (which is not always true…people are all different, and no sweeping statement can be made based on gender, no matter how commonly true) doesn’t mean that God will break His Word and let you be tempted beyond that which you can bear. Sin is sin (not only sexual sins, but that’s our focus here it seems)…and if it’s unrepented then no male can say “But I had a higher sex drive” on the Day of Judgment and expect everything to come up roses…he can expect the exact same judgment as would befall an unrepentant, fornicating female.

This is unrelated to the topic at large, and my previous posts above are more important to the topic, but I sensed this sub-topic running under the current, very strongly…so I wanted to point that out.

 

[Saint_Michael]

The OP seems to blame women an awful lot. Stating lack of virginity of women he has known. It’s ok to exceed the bounds of decency when it comes to women…but men get a free pass. What about the men? Is it ok for the men NOT to be chaste until they get married? .

I said several times it’s not O.K. for men, and men are even worse. Just because you refuse to hear that, or ignore it so you can wrongly put words in my mouth isn’t my fault, that’s your deal. I don’t know how much more plainer I can say it than I already have.

Plus men dress normal, everyday fashion isn’t skin tight pants with cucmbers down our pants. That’s what would be equivalent to the way women dress with necklines down to their belly button and push up bras. It’s pathetic, women in our culture have no respect for themselves. They act like sex objects desire mens gazes, it’s disgusting.

I’m an English speaking American, where canI go? Europe? It’s even worse, gve me a break. I would rather fix the society I live and served five years of my life defending, thanks.

Here’s the deal, women stop dressing like slts and sex objects,a nd maybe men will stop treating you like slts and sex objects? Not that hard a concept, put some loose fitting clothes on already…

 

[inJESUS]

** I would rather fix the society I live and served five years of my life defending, thanks.**
…

great…do you think you’ll achieve this in a secular country?

 

[KindredSoul]

Here’s the deal, women stop dressing like slts and sex objects,a nd maybe men will stop treating you like slts and sex objects?

While I agree that it’s wrong for women (and, as you admit, men) to dress provocatively, I must say the following: If a man is a good man, he wouldn’t even treat a scantily clad stripper like a sex object. The mark of a good man is that he will not take advantage of the woman who presents herself as a sex object. If he takes the bait, he cannot say “Well if she only hadn’t acted like a little harlot,” because she might just as easily say “Well if you’d only acted with half a brain and not given in…”

For the record, I’m a male. That’s why the attitude that today’s sexual atmosphere rests more so on women’s shoulders (which is what one asserts when he blames men’s treatment of women on how they–the women–dress) offends me. I’m not an animal. When I see a scantily clad woman, it offends me. Yes, it may attract me on some level, but I’m not a beast…I can refuse to take advantage, to give in to urges, or to dwell on them. To deny this is to say that God will allow us to be tempted beyond what we can bear, and I don’t buy into that at all.

The truth is, if males were all that they should be, scantily clad women would still be sinning by not being considerate…but they’d be sinning alone. If a male treats any woman like a sex object, he does so of his own free will, no matter how she is dressed. He is the one who then chooses to join her in her sin. You admit he too is a sinner…but you do not seem to admit that he cannot in any way blame the woman when he could have said no. God can and does blame the woman…but God can and does blame them both. Each of them can only blame themselves, and that’s the point I think others are trying to make here.

 

[undeserving]

Regarding Muslims, well i see them in Mary’s shrines more than i see Catholics !

Regarding clothes, i do agree on decency obviously. But i cannot blame non-Christians and secular “Christians” if they chose their freedom. After all, you can’t impose God on people. God will not reward a woman who was decent despite herself…that is, did not do it out of free-will but because there is a man on the street waiting to flogg her if he saw some skin. You only need to see Saudi women when they leave Saudi Arabia !! i see them everyday wearing tight jeans or skirts, full make-up, very colourful high heels and obviously no veil…before going back to SA, they become different persons. I cannot blame these women since flogging is the result in their country. But i would NOT say these are decent women even if they are veiled with all that black thing.

Do you think the arabic countries have a high level of morality? believe me they don’t, their politicians are as corrupt as anywhere in the world, their people as materialistic and they have as many adultrous liasons as they please. the trick is in not being caught, and if you are caught you better have plenty of money for bribes and good influential contacts… I should know many people I know live and work in the middle east.

 

[TheGarg]

"The number one benefit of the muslim way, in my eyes, is the fact that moslim women seem to be way more chaste than Christian women or unbelievers. They tend to refrain from engaging in premarital sex (zina); and the low divorce rate of muslim marriages is certainly highly praiseworthy.

To tell you the truth, if I ever convert, it would be in an attempt to seek a muslim wife and reduce the risk of a horrible family life with an unbeliever or with a Christian wife. Another advantage would be the fact that muslims seem to be more successful at keeping the children within the creed, while children born to Christian parents become almost systematically atheists, and that would be horrible in my book."

What do I say to the guy, I’ve also had the same thoughts (not converting to Islam though). How is our way the right way when the fruit we bear is rotten?

How about , ANY RELIGIOUS belief centered about personal gain, or the benefits to self is the WRONG religion. This guy is willing to burn in Hell for a woman??? he is basing his religious beliefs in what suits him…

“ask not what Jesus can do your you, but what you can do for Jesus”

 

[Booklover]

I think those cases are very rare and sensationalized by the press. If I had to give an honest assertion of Muslim women it’s that they are much more respectful of chastity and how they conduct themselves, Christian girls parade around in make-up tight pants, high heels, and their boobs showing and the Muslim women are always covered pushing a stroller and tending to their kids. I live in an area of Brooklyn that has a very high contrast of Muslims and Christians, it also has a lot of bars (you Brooklyn folks probably can figure out where I live), and the bars are lined with drunks and none of them are Muslims. I** work with a Muslim man and he as well as his wife were both chaste their entire lives, **in the West this is unheard of now. Our fruit is rotten and I have absolutely no retort when contronted with Jesus own words.

It’s easy to remain chaste when you’re not allowed to be alone together before marriage! Muslims do this so as to remove the temptation! Is this true virtue???

 

[Booklover]

That may be true but I don’t see their women dressed like hookers on the R train, and the men drunk at 2:00 in the afternoon on Sunday. I live amongst many Muslims, and I have to admit they carry themselves with much more dignity, especially the women. The young women sit quietly talking amongst themselves, while the Christian kids are loud and rude, the women hanging out all over the place, it’s no comparison. And in Brooklyn the women aren’t killed, in fact I believe that is a tiny fraction in the Muslim world.

So which is it? Have Christians lost their moral compass? Or was there a precipitous decline in actual practicing Chrsitians from two generations ago?

Is this the sort of thing you want to see: Very modest on the outside and full of hate on the inside! http://www.faithfreedom.org/Gallery/cartoon-protest1.jpg

 

[inJESUS]

While I agree that it’s wrong for women (and, as you admit, men) to dress provocatively, I must say the following: If a man is a good man, he wouldn’t even treat a scantily clad stripper like a sex object. The mark of a good man is that he will not take advantage of the woman who presents herself as a sex object. If he takes the bait, he cannot say “Well if she only hadn’t acted like a little harlot,” because she might just as easily say “Well if you’d only acted with half a brain and not given in…”

For the record, I’m a male. That’s why the attitude that today’s sexual atmosphere rests more so on women’s shoulders (which is what one asserts when he blames men’s treatment of women on how they–the women–dress) offends me. I’m not an animal. When I see a scantily clad woman, it offends me. Yes, it may attract me on some level, but I’m not a beast…I can refuse to take advantage, to give in to urges, or to dwell on them. To deny this is to say that God will allow us to be tempted beyond what we can bear, and I don’t buy into that at all.

The truth is, if males were all that they should be, scantily clad women would still be sinning by not being considerate…but they’d be sinning alone. If a male treats any woman like a sex object, he does so of his own free will, no matter how she is dressed. He is the one who then chooses to join her in her sin. You admit he too is a sinner…but you do not seem to admit that he cannot in any way blame the woman when he could have said no. God can and does blame the woman…but God can and does blame them both. Each of them can only blame themselves, and that’s the point I think others are trying to make here.

Jesus said to heal the mind and heart first…this will control the way you look at another human being. If you are a beast who cannot control his urges because he saw some skin, then the problem lies in his mind which is not pure enough to look at the other as a human being .

 

[inJESUS]

Do you think the arabic countries have a high level of morality?

no.

believe me they don’t, their politicians are as corrupt as anywhere in the world, their people as materialistic and they have as many adultrous liasons as they please. the trick is in not being caught, and if you are caught you better have plenty of money for bribes and good influential contacts… I should know many people I know live and work in the middle east

 

[inJESUS]

How about , ANY RELIGIOUS belief centered about personal gain, or the benefits to self is the WRONG religion. This guy is willing to burn in Hell for a woman??? he is basing his religious beliefs in what suits him…

“ask not what Jesus can do your you, but what you can do for Jesus”

He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it. (Matt 10:34-39)

 

[TheGarg]

Jesus said to heal the mind and heart first…this will control the way you look at another human being. If you are a beast who cannot control his urges because he saw some skin, then the problem lies in his mind which is not pure enough to look at the other as a human being .

easy there, you are talking as is we are not fallen creatures…this is no excuse to make our brethern stumble by dressing inappropiately

 

[KindredSoul]

That’s true enough, TheGarg, but in context of the fact that the message you’re quoting was a response to my message (which explicitly says there’s no excuse for either side, the female or the male, in this issue), I don’t think it was intended to say there was an excuse for inappropriate dress; instead, I believe that post was agreeing that inappropriate dress on the women’s behalf was likewise no excuse for the brethren to stumble. There’s no excuse either way…not for the inappropriately dressed female, but not for the guy who allows himself to sin because of her either. Excuses are dangerous indeed; they lead to sin without the proper repentance. So you’re right: women should not let the male responsability be an excuse for them…but nor should the men let the female responsability be an excuse for them.

That’s something you are likely well aware of; I just wanted to get this message out quickly, before someone else (not you, but anyone who might misunderstand) decided again that women bear the responsability when a man sins by lusting…each person is guilty of their own sins, ultimately. Only God can blame others who may or may not play a role in our sins; we can blame only ourselves. To blame others is in itself making excuses; and as you rightly imply, making excuses is never a good thing.

 

[TheGarg]

That’s true enough, TheGarg, but in context of the fact that the message you’re quoting was a response to my message (which explicitly says there’s no excuse for either side, the female or the male, in this issue), I don’t think it was intended to say there was an excuse for inappropriate dress; instead, I believe that post was agreeing that inappropriate dress on the women’s behalf was likewise no excuse for the brethren to stumble. There’s no excuse either way…not for the inappropriately dressed female, but not for the guy who allows himself to sin because of her either. Excuses are dangerous indeed; they lead to sin without the proper repentance. So you’re right: women should not let the male responsability be an excuse for them…but nor should the men let the female responsability be an excuse for them.

That’s something you are likely well aware of; I just wanted to get this message out quickly, before someone else (not you, but anyone who might misunderstand) decided again that women bear the responsability when a man sins by lusting…**each person is guilty of their own sins, **ultimately. Only God can blame others who may or may not play a role in our sins; we can blame only ourselves. To blame others is in itself making excuses; and as you rightly imply, making excuses is never a good thing.

the highligted is more the train ofthought i have. we can be guilty of others sins as well, if we cause them to sin. …
ex…a recovering sex addict either sex] is walking down the street, and a scantily clad person the sex the first one is attracted to] appears and the sex addict is immediately overwhelmed with tempation…try as he/she might, but later that day , they abuse themselves…that sin woudl also lay on the shoulders of the scantily clad person.

my “big picture” being… were are always doing one of two things: either we are leading people to Christ…or we are leading people away from Christ…there is no inbetween, no fence to ride on, no gray area.

how do you feel abou that?

 

[Orionthehunter]

I post on a Muslim message board because the religion intrigues me, and I find myself curious even drawn to it. In reading the story of a poster who is a Catholic considering converting to Islam he wrote this:

*"The number one benefit of the muslim way, in my eyes, is the fact that moslim women seem to be way more chaste than Christian women or unbelievers. They tend to refrain from engaging in premarital sex (zina); and the low divorce rate of muslim marriages is certainly highly praiseworthy.

To tell you the truth, if I ever convert, it would be in an attempt to seek a muslim wife and reduce the risk of a horrible family life with an unbeliever or with a Christian wife. Another advantage would be the fact that muslims seem to be more successful at keeping the children within the creed, while children born to Christian parents become almost systematically atheists, and that would be horrible in my book."*

I found myself both flabbergasted and unable to refute what the poster wrote. Fact is most western Christian women have been with several men by the time they marry I would guestimate ~90-95% of western Christian women are not virgins by marriage . I would assume the Muslim percentage is far lower. How do you argue with something like this? What do I say to the guy? Yeah Christianity is great even though 95% of the West doesn’t abide by its precepts???

What do I say to the guy, I’ve also had the same thoughts (not converting to Islam though). How is our way the right way when the fruit we bear is rotten?

I had to read the entire thread to make sure that the OP was serious.

No matter how many statistics that are twisted to “prove” that Islam is superior, I can twist as many to prove it is inferior. But you know what statistics are inferior as compared to what we believe- the Truth.

And God gave us the ability to reason to discern the Truth. Any religion that have teachings that contradict the nature of God who loves perfectly and infintely can’t be from God or the Truth. Just a few examples:

I was made in the image of God. God made me because He chose to love me perfectly and infinitely. The same applies to my daughter. What do you think God thinks of a teaching that treats women as chattel? Certainly doesn’t seem to be very respectful of my daughter’s/wife’s divine nature.

And I don’t even want to get into a discussion about their entire teaching that they can kill Muslims who freely convert to Christianity. God didn’t make us to be forced to love Him. He wants us to choose to love Him. This entire teaching is an anathema to God.

Finally, this whole “fruit” argument is ludicrous. Hey, if having a slave for a wife is your idea of matrimony, having daughters you can sell for more money if they stay a virgin is your idea of a loving father/daughter relationship, there is really little that I can do to convince you. Heck, do something big and die doing it and get yourself 72 virgins.