Agreed, Why was Jesus’s commandment to his apostles to go out and PREACH the gospel. If the poor people were going to corrupt his teachings (according to the children’s game theory), why not command his apostles to WRITE the gospel?
And as reformed has said, “the gospel” message of the Catholic church today is not the right one… So what were the apostles preaching then that the Catholic church now teaches differently?
There is one true Church. It is not an “invisible” Church within each of us. If that were so, please tell us how to apply the following words of Christ (underlined for emphasis).We have to define the word church. I’m catholic too!I need to get some work done. Have a great morning everyone! May our discussions and debate drive us deeper to know Him better…to the praise of His glorious grace!
For thus says the LORD: Never shall David lack a successor on the throne of the house of Israel, nor shall priests of Levi ever be lacking, to offer holocausts before me, to burn cereal offerings, and to sacrifice victims.This word of the LORD also came to Jeremiah: (Jer. 33:17-18)We have to define the word church. I’m catholic too!
Our desire should be to love honor and serve God, yes glorify him. However it is God’s desire that we make the choice to do that on our own throughout our mortal lives so that what we give to Him is honest, heart felt love and devotion, not just compliance out of fear. That free will continues to our last breath of mortal life and until that last breath is taken, the test is not over. In order to love someone with the respect and devotion that leads one’s heart to that all natural love, a person must have the desire to learn to know that person intimately and it is the continually growing knowledge that strengthens that love which in turn determines the depth of the devotion. It is not enough to claim we know scripture and conclude based on that we know Him. If scripture conflicts with itself you’re interpretation has to be wrong, there is no other reason for it. We see that right here in front of us. Too many of us have too many interpretations of scripture and all but one is within the structure of the Church the Christ, Jesus, founded. Do I say this with ill feelings or prejudice toward others who claim Christianity as their faith? Of course not. It is sad that we cannot see. I say it based on what each of us should be able to see but do not. Through ego and self-pride we take a stance of competition toward each other instead of opening our hearts and minds enough to understand who created this division. And yes Jesus knew it would happen and it is Satan who causes us to be tested because it is he who tries to sway us. That some of us have been scattered like sheep, sifted like wheat and so on. Oh, all the warnings of all the things that would happen have been outlined to us and yet we look at the scriptures and the confusion we brought on ourselves through Satan’s encouragement and debate it amongst ourselves instead of regrouping with the hunger to really know.
The gospel of justification is not biblical but a distortion based on scrupulosity. Luther even added the word ‘alone’ to Eph. Ch. 2 which is no where to be found in the scriptures.
I see your point, MOnkey, but there is one place in scripture where the words “faith alone” are together. It appears in the book that Luther wanted to excise because he said it was “straw”.
I think you may not understand that the Bible is received as the Holy Word of God by a sovereign act of God through the work of God the Holy Spirit. Let me ask this question, why are you able to receive the Word of God as the Word of God? Did you receive this truth in the flesh or in the Spirit? Who is the Apostle Paul thanking that this group of believers received the Word of God as the Word of God? It seems Paul acknowledges that God is the cause that someone is able to believe the Bible to be the Word of God. Somehow, I think many Roman Catholics think that the natural man has the free will ablility to receive the Word of God as the Word of God. Why do you think Jesus spoke in parables? When I share the biblicial Christ with Mormon Christians, do you think I argue with them that the Bible is the Word of God? Of course not, I just reason with them with the Scriptures with the presuppositon that the Bible is the Word of God. This is how the Apostle Paul reasons with the Jews, through the Scriptures. But Paul knew quite well that those who were appointed to eternal life received His gospel. You can’t convince someone in the flesh that the Bible is the Word of God. Try debating that issue with athesists and agnostics through forum sites and see how far you get.
BTW… the Bible never debates the existences of our Triune God. The same is true with the Bible. This written revelation from God presupposes that the Bible is the Word of God and this unknown God chooses to reveal Himself to mankind through written revelation we call the Bible. Do you need the unbelieving Jewish scribes to tell you what the Old Testament reveals, or does the Catholic Church rely on the Holy Spirit instead to understand the Old Testament?Perhaps you misunderstand when paul says they HEARD the word of God and accepted it. No where does paul say they accepted his WRITINGS as inspired by God. Why should we consider paul’s WRITINGS inspired? The question is not, do we consider them inspiried, but on what bases? Obviously there were things written down by others that are NOT accepted. How can we reject those and accept these? Is this something everyone must just accept on blind faith? How can we hope to answer this question if everyone has their own idea of what is inspiried? Why is that any better than (if as you claim) Catholics ask its members to accept Traditions?I think you may not understand that the Bible is received as the Holy Word of God by a sovereign act of God through the work of God the Holy Spirit. Let me ask this question, why are you able to receive the Word of God as the Word of God? Did you receive this truth in the flesh or in the Spirit? Who is the Apostle Paul thanking that this group of believers received the Word of God as the Word of God? It seems Paul acknowledges that God is the cause that someone is able to believe the Bible to be the Word of God. Somehow, I think many Roman Catholics think that the natural man has the free will ablility to receive the Word of God as the Word of God. Why do you think Jesus spoke in parables? When I share the biblicial Christ with Mormon Christians, do you think I argue with them that the Bible is the Word of God? Of course not, I just reason with them with the Scriptures with the presuppositon that the Bible is the Word of God. This is how the Apostle Paul reasons with the Jews, through the Scriptures. But Paul knew quite well that those who were appointed to eternal life received His gospel. You can’t convince someone in the flesh that the Bible is the Word of God. Try debating that issue with athesists and agnostics through forum sites and see how far you get.
1 Thessalonians 2:13
And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.
If you are trying to claim that the Catholic Church gave us the Bible; therfore only the Catholic Church can tell us what is revealed in the Bible. Then, you need the physcial jews to tell you what God reveals in the OT, assuming you are going to say that the Nation of Israel gave us the OT. This is completely a fleshly position and has no weight in spiritual discernment (1 Cor 20. God the Holy Spirit is the true vicar here on planet earth. You must be born again to begin a life-long process of knowing God better and deeper. Those who do not have the Spirit do not know God is not known by God.
8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years! 11 I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain. - Gal 4
My answer was given to you in my long post response to you. The short answer is God the Holy Spirit.
Is Holy Spirit schizophrenic? Did it tells the believers of the mormonism that their extra book is good and tells you its wrong and tells me Tradition is ok but tells someone else its bad?
Reformed,
Indeed, saying the Holy Spirit leads us to this conclusion individually only begs the question, HOW do we know WHEN the Holy Spirit speaks, and HOW do we know that we’re faithfully following ALL it said and not changing the Holy Spirits teachings to us.
Be careful my friend in what you post. God the Holy Spirit is God. The Holy Spirit is not an “it” too!
The Scriptures are God-breathed, therefore we know the will of God through the Spirit through the illuminating work of God the Holy Spirit as we grow in biblical understanding. The Christian life is about glorifying God and enjoying Him forever. This conclusion is found throughout the Scriptures. Do you think the Christian life is about something else? Please do not address God the Holy Spirit as “it”. I will no longer respond to postings who address the Spirit as “it”!
MerickOWA makes a very good point here. All the Catholics have spoken with “one voice” and are of the same mind and judgement in this discussion.
Very well, “He”. Your response, however, doesn’t answer the question. If the Holy Spirit is guiding all Protestants into the “real” truth about the Bible and its sole authority. Wouldn’t you agree that the Bible isn’t your sole authority? You rely on the Holy Spirit’s authority to explain to you the Scriptures. Too bad that no Protestants can seem to agree on EXACTLY what the Scriptures are saying.
Ohh… I have made it clear that not all Protestants and not all Catholics are converted and united to Christ. There are many apostate churches out there. Protestants is too broad of a term with many belief systems. There is a remnant chosen by grace found throughout redemptive history. The true body of Christ is neither Roman Catholic, nor Protestant. The true church is catholic. Your membership to a particular religious community does not save you.
Again you don’t the question. How do those who you claim are true believers and lead by the Holy Spirit KNOW this fact. Even if they are truly being lead, how do they know they’ve properly understood everything they’ve been taught?
That is the most untrue statement ever posted on this forum site. All you have to do is follow the threads on this site to refute your claim.