Religious affections and love for God

[Reformed]

That is a flat out lie. I’ll assume you posted it out of ignorance, but now you will have no excuse:

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an “adopted son” he can henceforth call God “Father,” in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God’s gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47

Here is the CC on personal merit:

ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=merit&s=SS

I think the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Council of Trent would support my view of Cathoilc justification and not yours. Did you know that the Catholic Catechism states that you are able to merit your salvation? Protestants proclaim that we are justified by the merit of Christ alone. Catholics do not believe this or teach this. Ashley, did you go through an RCIA class for a year before you converted from Protestantism to Roman Catholicism?

Would you agree with these formula?

The Catholic formula for justification is: Faith + Good Works = Justification

The Protestant formula for justifiction is: Faith = Justification + Good works

The deficient Protestant theology of Antinomianism formula for justification is" Faith = Justification - Good Works

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Here is the CC on personal merit:

ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=merit&s=SS

Let’s see a quote.

You claimed the Church teaches that we can merit justification on our own.

You are dead wrong. Will you at least admit it rather than trying to divert attention from your error?

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God’s gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47

 

[GailMac]

If you love God, why not do it His Way? That would be the Catholic Church. We’d love to have you. But if you prefer gambling away your eternity with a bunch of specious arguments, go right ahead.

Peace,

Gail

 

[Reformed]

If you believe that "Faith = Justification + works,

How does the protestant theology imply that faith is made manifest? If works come after justification, then what is faith? What do you make of the passage "faith without works is dead?

How do you “live by faith” as Paul teaches?

Before we continue, please answer this question:

Ashley, did you go through an RCIA class for a year before you converted from Protestantism to Roman Catholicism?

 

[Reformed]

Let’s see a quote.

You claimed the Church teaches that we can merit justification on our own.

You are dead wrong. Will you at least admit it rather than trying to divert attention from your error?

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God’s gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47

Please understand my postings in context of the discussion. Please go back to post 120. I don’t think I posted what you claim that I posted.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Before we continue, please answer this question:

Ashley, did you go through an RCIA class for a year before you converted from Protestantism to Roman Catholicism?

 God worked a long time on my heart, revealing small truths to me my entire live, which led up to my decision to join His church.

I had a conversion of heart long before I completed my RCIA courses. And it was through the course, that God continued to work in my life and affirm the lessons He had been teaching me all along

You stated earlier that you think the catholic church keeps converts from baptism until they finnish an RCIA program…but this is also incorrect. We believe the baptism exists in three forms:
Baptism of blood, when one is martyred and sheds blood for the faith

Baptism by water, when we take part in the sacrament of baptism with water, instituted by Christ Himself.

Baptism of desire, The state in which we are anticipating, and preparing for our official baptism of water.

When going through RCIA, you are transformed by the baptism of desire, until you finally take part in water baptism.

I am stating this information, because of previous comments you’ve made about RCIA members being “held back” from full communion, as a “demonstration” of how “wrong” the church is.

And I posted this on another thread, but I think it will help you in understanding why I choose the Catholic Church. The one true church, founded by Christ Himself.

 *Though there may be tens of thousands of other "ways" I choose Christ's church.

Though there is always a path willing to make the road easier for me, I choose Christ’s church.

Though I may be persecuted, doubted, questioned, hated, scorned, misunderstood or rejected, I choose Christ’s church.

I will follow Christ, I will follow the truth, and the fullness of the truth lies within Christ’s church.

Though even my fellow Christians will mock my faith, and Christ himself, I will choose Christ’s church.

To walk with Christ is to walk the path that Christ walked. Will I step an inch away, and say “no, Lord. please let me step away just a little…I cannot bear to see you wounded so close to me…” Or “No, Lord… If I stand so near you, I will have to walk your path on calvary…” Or… “No Lord… please let me stand in the nearest village, so that I only need to hear the word of your sacrifice… I cannot bear to be around!.”

No… I choose to walk with Christ. To suffer for Him and with Him. To stride, embracing my Lord…so that in the end He may know I truly loved Him.*

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Please understand my postings in context of the discussion.

You lied about the Catholic Faith and I exposed it.

Feel free to admit your error or your ignorance.

I understand that often the Catechism can be misquoted and you might have been told something that isn’t true.

Here is the lie you posted:

Did you know that the Catholic Catechism states that you are able to merit your salvation?

 

[Reformed]

You lied about the Catholic Faith and I exposed it.

Feel free to admit your error or your ignorance.

I understand that often the Catechism can be misquoted and you might have been told something that isn’t true.

Here is the lie you posted:

No my friend. If you read my postings in context, I don’t think what I wrote is incorrect. We all need to understand the limits of discussing these things through forum sites. It is limited with many shortcomings. But apart from forum sites, we could not discuss things as we have. By personal invitation, I have been to an RICA class, Catholic apolgetics debate, and catholic men’s fellowships… and the conversations never go this deep.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

No my friend. If you read my postings in context, I don’t think what I wrote is incorrect. We all need to understand the limits of discussing these things through forum sites. It is limited with many shortcomings. But apart from forum sites, we could not discuss things as we have. By personal invitation, I have been to an RICA class, Catholic apolgetics debate, and catholic men’s fellowships… and the conversations never go this deep.

You wrote:

Did you know that the Catholic Catechism states that you are able to merit your salvation?

You know that it is false, now. I assume you were ignorant before.

I gave you direct quotes from the Catechism to prove my point.

 

[MerickOWA]

No my friend. If you read my postings in context, I don’t think what I wrote is incorrect. We all need to understand the limits of discussing these things through forum sites. It is limited with many shortcomings. But apart from forum sites, we could not discuss things as we have. By personal invitation, I have been to an RICA class, Catholic apolgetics debate, and catholic men’s fellowships… and the conversations never go this deep.

Faith is necessary for our works to have merit does indeed seem scriptural Reformed. However, belief that Faith implies works would mean, according to logic, that with it is impossible to have faith apart from works. It would be a logical impossibility. Does a faith without works not exist? IF it is a logical impossibility, why would the bible use two different terms? Why would the sacred authors use it in the bible using the term works?

You want to say that works comes from faith, and certainly there seems to be some scripture passages which indicate this. How does Jame’s statement in 2:22 be understood.

You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.

If faith comes before works, and is necessary before works, how can works complete the faith?

 

[fhansen]

It’s fairly simple, I think. In Catholic teaching, Gods’ main purpose is to mold/temper/draw us into something of genuine value, restoring us to the original state of man or creating something even better yet out of the mess. This is the reason for creating to begin with and for allowing the fall to occur. Our cooperation is necessary precisely because of this fact. We achieve worthiness by learning the “value of God”-by freely choosing the Good as opposed to Adam & Eves’ rejection of it. In Reformed theology our sin is sort of patched over and then possibly worked on although there’s no necessity of this because, after all, Jesus did it all. In this scenario, the creation and fall seem to be a rather worthless enterprise. God creates us, we fall, and then He saves us. He could’ve avoided the whole drama and all the pain and suffering if He would’ve just forgiven and transformed Adam & Eve to begin with or prevented them from sinning at all. To us, much of Reformed thinking appears hyper-rational, sterile, shallow, legalistic, and relatively loveless.

 

[Reformed]

It’s fairly simple, I think. In Catholic teaching, Gods’ main purpose is to mold/temper/draw us into something of genuine value, restoring us to the original state of man or creating something even better yet out of the mess. This is the reason for creating to begin with and for allowing the fall to occur. Our cooperation is necessary precisely because of this fact. We achieve worthiness by learning the “value of God”-by freely choosing the Good as opposed to Adam & Eves’ rejection of it. In Reformed theology our sin is sort of patched over and then possibly worked on although there’s no necessity of this because, after all, Jesus did it all. In this scenario, the creation and fall seem to be a rather worthless enterprise. God creates us, we fall, and then He saves us. He could’ve avoided the whole drama and all the pain and suffering if He would’ve just forgiven and transformed Adam & Eve to begin with or prevented them from sinning at all. To us, much of Reformed thinking appears hyper-rational, sterile, shallow, legalistic, and relatively loveless.

Thanks for sharing your personal opinion. Would you like to try to support your posting with Scripture?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Thanks for sharing your personal opinion. Would you like to try to support your posting with Scripture?

Phill 3

10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, **14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. ** 15All of us who are mature should take such a view of things.

 

[Reformed]

Phill 3

10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, **14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. ** 15All of us who are mature should take such a view of things.

That is one of my all time favorite Bible passages!

 

[fhansen]

Thanks for sharing your personal opinion. Would you like to try to support your posting with Scripture?

Not right now. I been spending too much time doing it already with others in a thread in the Apologetics forum: How are we saved? The Catholic position is spelled out pretty well there, I think.

 

[Reformed]

Not right now. I been spending too much time doing it already with others in a thread in the Apologetics forum: How are we saved? The Catholic position is spelled out pretty well there, I think.

I never leave the non-catholic religion section since I am a protestant.

 

[MerickOWA]

That is one of my all time favorite Bible passages!

How do you understand Paul’s own statement that he has not yet attained salvation. Why does he not believe that he has been made perfect yet?

Is Paul denying his faith? If he has faith and faith alone gives salvation and causes works, why does Paul not believe this? What could be Paul’s goal? If salvation is the ultimate goal of mankind, how could Paul’s faith not already achieved this?

 

[Reformed]

How do you understand Paul’s own statement that he has not yet attained salvation. Why does he not believe that he has been made perfect yet?

Is Paul denying his faith? If he has faith and faith alone gives salvation and causes works, why does Paul not believe this? What could be Paul’s goal? If salvation is the ultimate goal of mankind, how could Paul’s faith not already achieved this?

I think Protestants and Catholics alike understand salvation to be a process of past, present and future tenses. However, I still cannot understand how Catholics can see salvation from a past tense. Do you mind helping me understand how you are able to view the salvation process in a past tense in Roman Catholic theology?

 

[Love_is_Patient]

I think Protestants and Catholics alike understand salvation to be a process of past, present and future tenses. However, I still cannot understand how Catholics can see salvation from a past tense. Do you mind helping me understand how you are able to view the salvation process in a past tense in Roman Catholic theology?

1 Peter 3:18-22
For Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit. In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.

For Catholics, we would point to baptism as the “past tense.”

Love is Patient

 

[MerickOWA]

I think Protestants and Catholics alike understand salvation to be a process of past, present and future tenses. However, I still cannot understand how Catholics can see salvation from a past tense. Do you mind helping me understand how you are able to view the salvation process in a past tense in Roman Catholic theology?

I can try to explain the best I can.

God’s grace and its working in someone to make them receptive to God’s Word of salvation is the first workings of grace. This helps bring the person closer, but requires their cooperation. Their Baptism into the Church is their statement of faith in His Church. This is how we understand the bible when it says we need faith. Without faith, we have not yet been joined with Him in His Church and thus cannot continue on the path to salvation. But the journey of salvation is not finished by this one act.