Religious affections and love for God

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Love_is_Patient said:
1 Peter 3:18-22
For Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit. In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.

For Catholics, we would point to baptism as the “past tense.”

❤️ Love is Patient
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That’s a good point. I believe you see baptism as being in a justified state. But with mortal sin, don’t you loose that intital justified state? For the Protesant, justification is a legal declaration received at conversion. We are pardoned because of the righteousness of Christ is credited to our account at conversion. We receive that eternal verdict of not guilty because we are credited or imuptued the righteousness of Christ. For the Roman Catholic, final justification is received upon death or purgatory, right? Therefore, there isn’t a past tense for a Roman Catholic Christian (IMO). Please see Romans 8:1 for the past tense of salvation for the Protestant Christian.

Romans 8

8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. [1] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you [2] free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, [3] he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Heirs with Christ
12 So then, brothers, [4] we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons [5] of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him
 
Reformed said:
That’s a good point. I believe you see baptism as being in a justified state. But with mortal sin, don’t you loose that intital justified state? For the Protesant, justification is a legal declaration received at conversion. We are pardoned because of the righteousness of Christ is credited to our account at conversion. We receive that eternal verdict of not guilty because we are credited or imuptued the righteousness of Christ. For the Roman Catholic, final justification is received upon death or purgatory, right? Therefore, there isn’t a past tense for a Roman Catholic Christian (IMO).
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The protestand veil is so fixed upon you, you see the Catholic faith in the darkness of protestanism. I know this may sound rash, but it’s true.

The Church teaches that NO ONE is righteous nor are you worthy before God. The path to holiness is one of surrender, only God is righteous, only God holds the key to salvation. Please don’t pretend to be holy, it makes us all christians look bad.
 
MerickOWA said:
I can try to explain the best I can.

God’s grace and its working in someone to make them receptive to God’s Word of salvation is the first workings of grace. This helps bring the person closer, but requires their cooperation. Their Baptism into the Church is their statement of faith in His Church. This is how we understand the bible when it says we need faith. Without faith, we have not yet been joined with Him in His Church and thus cannot continue on the path to salvation. But the journey of salvation is not finished by this one act.
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The Roman Catholic really doesn’t believe in the complete free will of man. The free will of man needs the influence of God the Holy Spirit, correct? If God the Holy Spirit is influencing your will, then your will cannot be completely free from outside influences.
 
M0nkey said:
The protestand veil is so fixed upon you, you see the Catholic faith in the darkness of protestanism. I know this may sound rash, but it’s true.

The Church teaches that NO ONE is righteous nor are you worthy before God. The path to holiness is one of surrender, only God is righteous, only God holds the key to salvation. Please don’t pretend to be holy, it makes us all christians look bad.
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I’d rather have the Protestant veil than the Satanic veil. Check out this verse!

2 Corinthians 4

The Light of the Gospel
4:1 Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, [1] we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants [2] for Jesus’ sake. 6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
 
Reformed said:
The Roman Catholic really doesn’t believe in the complete free will of man. The free will of man needs the influence of God the Holy Spirit, correct? If God the Holy Spirit is influencing your will, then your will cannot be completely free from outside influences.
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I think it is best to let the Catholic Church speak for itself. While you may wish to dispute it, we believe that it is God’s grace which gives us freedom from original sin when we are Baptized. This gives us freedom to do as he asks without making our works filthy rags. If we choose to rebuild this wall between us and God through mortal sin, then it requires reparations through the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

God can extend his Grace but man still has the free will to reject it. How do you see this as denying free will? Free will is not a will which cannot be influenced, unless you are saying that no one can be influenced by another. Free will means that even when influenced, we are able to reject that influence.
 
MerickOWA said:
I think it is best to let the Catholic Church speak for itself. While you may wish to dispute it, we believe that it is God’s grace which gives us freedom from original sin when we are Baptized. This gives us freedom to do as he asks without making our works filthy rags. If we choose to rebuild this wall between us and God through mortal sin, then it requires reparations through the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

God can extend his Grace but man still has the free will to reject it. How do you see this as denying free will? Free will is not a will which cannot be influenced, unless you are saying that no one can be influenced by another. Free will means that even when influenced, we are able to reject that influence.
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We have to wrestle with Romans 6 and our nature prior to conversion and after our conversion. Our wills were not free prior to conversion or after our conversion. Scripture reveals that before we knew Christ we were slaves to sin, controlled by the flesh and our godless nature. After our conversion and unity to Christ, Paul states that we are bondservants of Christ and slaves of righteousness. Therefore, we have to address what Scripture reveals and not necessarily what you are suppose to believe as a Catholic Christians. Do you think our wills or inclinations are the same before and after knowing Christ?
 
Reformed said:
Would you agree with these formula?

The Catholic formula for justification is: Faith + Good Works = Justification

The Protestant formula for justifiction is: Faith = Justification + Good works

The deficient Protestant theology of Antinomianism formula for justification is" Faith = Justification - Good Works
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No. The Catholic Church teaches that we are justified by grace. It is all grace. Grace is the basis of everything. If faith and works participate, it is because they are moved by grace.

I am amazed that neither of your formulas contains grace, which both the Catholic and Reformed traditions agree is the only basis of salvation. :eek:
 
guanophore said:
No. The Catholic Church teaches that we are justified by grace. It is all grace. Grace is the basis of everything. If faith and works participate, it is because they are moved by grace.

I am amazed that neither of your formulas contains grace, which both the Catholic and Reformed traditions agree is the only basis of salvation. :eek:
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I think the goal is to interchage the words, faith, grace, justification, and works so many times in so many different ways, that nobody understands what they believe anymore.

Then after we are all thoroughly confused, Reformed can clarify our confusion, and bring us to the RIGHT understanding.
 
Reformed said:
I think the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Council of Trent would support my view of Cathoilc justification and not yours. Did you know that the Catholic Catechism states that you are able to merit your salvation? Protestants proclaim that we are justified by the merit of Christ alone. Catholics do not believe this or teach this. Ashley, did you go through an RCIA class for a year before you converted from Protestantism to Roman Catholicism?
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I sent you a link on the Catholic teaching on justification. I wish you would read it. Don’t you think it would make more sense to argue with us about what is really taught, instead of what you erroneously believe is taught?
Reformed said:
Here is the CC on personal merit:

ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=merit&s=SS
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Well, I can’t tell which article you are reading but given that you are calling it “personal merit” it is likely that you are reading something on rewards, which only applies to the justified. No on can earn any eternal rewards in a fallen state. Personal merit, therefore, cannot occur until after one is justified by grace, through faith.
Reformed said:
I think the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Council of Trent would support my view of Cathoilc justification and not yours. Did you know that the Catholic Catechism states that you are able to merit your salvation? Protestants proclaim that we are justified by the merit of Christ alone. Catholics do not believe this or teach this. Ashley, did you go through an RCIA class for a year before you converted from Protestantism to Roman Catholicism?
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You have been wrongly taught about Catholcism.

I think you are misunderstanding both Trent, and the Catechism. I pray that you will open your mind to the Truth, so that you can at least have the intellectual honesty to disagree with what really exists, instead of your fabricated and erroneous conception of what is taught. :byzsoc:
 
Protestants and Catholics agree that salvation is by grace alone!
Therefore, with this agreement, do you agree on the formulas below?

The Catholic formula for justification is: Faith + Good Works = Justification

The Protestant formula for justifiction is: Faith = Justification + Good works

The deficient Protestant theology of Antinomianism formula for justification is" Faith = Justification - Good Works
 
Reformed said:
The Catholic formula for justification is: Faith + Good Works = Justification

The Protestant formula for justifiction is: Faith = Justification + Good works
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An act of faith is already an act of works, i.e., love.
 
Ag_not said:
Do you believe that catholics are under the influence of satan. Yes or No.
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Do you still deny Christ as your Lord and Savior? I consider catholics that are united to Christ as my brothers and sisters who have been purchased by the blood of Christ.
 
Reformed said:
Please understand my postings in context of the discussion. 👍 Please go back to post 120. I don’t think I posted what you claim that I posted.
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I think it is clear that you have posted misinformation. You are misrepresenting the Catholic viewpoint, either from malice, or ignorance. Either way, it is wrong. 🤷
Reformed said:
No my friend. If you read my postings in context, I don’t think what I wrote is incorrect. We all need to understand the limits of discussing these things through forum sites. It is limited with many shortcomings. But apart from forum sites, we could not discuss things as we have. By personal invitation, I have been to an RICA class, Catholic apolgetics debate, and catholic men’s fellowships… and the conversations never go this deep.
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I went back and read the whole thread again, and yes, what you posted was incorrect. You clearly stated that the Catholic Church teaches that we can merit our own salvation. This is not correct.

I am glad you are finally getting some depth into Catholic soteriology, I think this is great. Perhaps now will be an ideal time to let go of your erroneous preconceived notions, and try to have an open mind that what you have been taught may be inaccruate.
 
Reformed said:
Do you still deny Christ as your Lord and Savior? I consider catholics that are united to Christ as my brothers and sisters who have been purchased by the blood of Christ.
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Please state specifically what you were referring to when you said you would rather have the veil of protestanism that the veil of satan. To what does this veil refer in you post?
 
Reformed said:
We have to wrestle with Romans 6 and our nature prior to conversion and after our conversion. Our wills were not free prior to conversion or after our conversion. Scripture reveals that before we knew Christ we were slaves to sin, controlled by the flesh and our godless nature. After our conversion and unity to Christ, Paul states that we are bondservants of Christ and slaves of righteousness. Therefore, we have to address what Scripture reveals and not necessarily what you are suppose to believe as a Catholic Christians. Do you think our wills or inclinations are the same before and after knowing Christ?
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Indeed, before Baptism, we were slaves to sin and free from God’s love as in Romans 6:20
For when you were slaves of sin, you were free from righteousness.
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And when we are Baptized into Christ’s Body we free ourselves from sin and make ourselves slave to Christ’s grace. How is this contrary to the idea of free will? Roman’s 6 seems to say we can freely choose who we wish to call lord, be it truth or sin.

Further more, the Catholic Church teaches that even after Baptism we have free will and can stop cooperating with God’s grace. This is what is meant by mortal sin.
 
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