Religious affections and love for God

[guanophore]

I think Protestants and Catholics alike understand salvation to be a process of past, present and future tenses. However, I still cannot understand how Catholics can see salvation from a past tense. Do you mind helping me understand how you are able to view the salvation process in a past tense in Roman Catholic theology?

When we are baptized, all of our sins are washed away. Both original and personal sins are cleansed and we are made adopted children of God, sealed by the HS, transferred from the kingdom of darkeness into the kingdom of light, separated from Adam by the merits of Christ on the Cross and joined with Him into his death, burial, and resurrection. We are infused with eternal life, and are seated with Him in the heavenly places where He is at the right hand of God. We are made into prophet, priest, and king - born again from above. It is a done deal, complete in that moment.

That’s a good point. I believe you see baptism as being in a justified state. But with mortal sin, don’t you loose that intital justified state?

Yes, we believe mortal sin removes us from the state of grace that we are placed in by God at baptism. In baptism, we have died, and our life is hidden with Christ in God. However, the nature of sin has not changed. Sin still separates us from God. When we choose to depart from Him by sinning, we are no longer hidden in Him.

 For the Roman Catholic, final justification is received upon death or purgatory, right?  Therefore, there isn't a past tense for a Roman Catholic Christian (IMO). Please see Romans 8:1 for the past tense of salvation for the Protestant Christian.

Catholicism is not “Roman”. We believe that justification is complete at the moment of baptism. If a person were to die after baptism, they would have a straight ticket. If they don’t die, then they will partake of sanctification and finally, glorification.

The only way you can say there is no “past tense” for us is to deny all that we believe happens in baptism. However, it seems that you are very fond of denying what we actually believe, and favor subsitituting your erroneous ideas of what we believe.

Just a reminder, I decided not to discuss things with you anymore, and I think you know that. I don’t think we have an ignore feature on this forum site, do we?

I have not forgotten. You never did discuss anything with me, so I have not experienced a loss.

Yes, you can block all my posts. Go to your profile, and put my username in, and the system will prevent you from having to see them. That way, you can do what that chimp was demonstrating.

 

[guanophore]

The Roman Catholic really doesn’t believe in the complete free will of man. The free will of man needs the influence of God the Holy Spirit, correct? If God the Holy Spirit is influencing your will, then your will cannot be completely free from outside influences.

This is absurd. That is like saying, “my will is influence by what I hear on the political talk show. Since what I am hearing may influence how I vote, I no longer have free will”.

We believe that free will is the image and likeness of God by which we are created. In His sovereignity, He has ordained that we should be permitted to choose. He sets before us life, and death, and urges us to choose life. But if we choose death, He allows it.

I’d rather have the Protestant veil than the Satanic veil. Check out this verse!

Are you so sure there is a difference?

 

[Reformed]

This is absurd. That is like saying, “my will is influence by what I hear on the political talk show. Since what I am hearing may influence how I vote, I no longer have free will”.

We believe that free will is the image and likeness of God by which we are created. In His sovereignity, He has ordained that we should be permitted to choose. He sets before us life, and death, and urges us to choose life. But if we choose death, He allows it.

Are you so sure there is a difference?

I will break my silence with you because I want to hear your view on how God the Holy Spirit works in the life of the Christian (Rom 8).

[/QUOTE]

 

[twb1621]

Do you still deny Christ as your Lord and Savior? I consider catholics that are united to Christ as my brothers and sisters who have been purchased by the blood of Christ.

our salvation was purchased by the blood of Christ but until death we have free will to choose to follow Him or go our own way. God doesn’t take away our free will.

Reformed, when we discussed issues in the other thread did I understand you correctly that your original faith is Catholicism or am I wrong?

 

[Ag_not]

Reformed will you please answer my question in #157 - to what specifically are you referring to when you say you would rather have the veil of protestanism than the veil of satan. Is the veil of satan in the context of your satement the catholic church?

 

[Love_is_Patient]

That’s a good point. I believe you see baptism as being in a justified state. But with mortal sin, don’t you loose that intital justified state? **For the Protesant, justification is a legal declaration received at conversion. We are pardoned because of the righteousness of Christ is credited to our account at conversion. We receive that eternal verdict of not guilty because we are credited or imuptued the righteousness of Christ. ** For the Roman Catholic, final justification is received upon death or purgatory, right? Therefore, there isn’t a past tense for a Roman Catholic Christian (IMO). Please see Romans 8:1 for the past tense of salvation for the Protestant Christian.

Romans 8

8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. …
Heirs with Christ
12 So then, brothers, [4] we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons [5] of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him

Why do you believe that justification is a legal state? Why do you believe that God “credits” your account? Where do you find that in Scripture? Where do you find imputation of righteousness?

As far as mortal sin is concerned, how exactly do you understand the effect of mortal sin on your relationship with God?

I ask because I would be able to better respond if I understood why you believe what you do.

God bless,

Love is Patient

 

[Reformed]

Reformed will you please answer my question in #157 - to what specifically are you referring to when you say you would rather have the veil of protestanism than the veil of satan. Is the veil of satan in the context of your satement the catholic church?

Hi Ag_not

I’m just responding to the sarcasm with sarcasm. I don’t think you need to settle the Protestant or Catholic issue right now. But, I really believe you need to settle what you believe in regards to the person of Jesus Christ. He was a historical person who made some wild claims about Himself. We can say that Jesus was either a liar, lunatic, or He is who He claims to be. Both Roman Catholics and Protestant believe that Jesus is God incarnate and Savior for those who believe in Him. Joining the Catholic Church or a Protestant Church will not save you from the wrath of God and the coming day of judgment. Only Jesus Christ can save you from your sin. How can we all help you believe in Him? You do need to receive Him personally as Lord and Savior.

John 14:6

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 3

You Must Be Born Again
3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus [1] by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again [2] he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [3] 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You [4] must be born again.’ 8 The wind [5] blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you [6] do not receive our testimony. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. [7] 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. [8]

For God So Loved the World
16 “For God so loved the world, [9] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

John the Baptist Exalts Christ
22 After this Jesus and his disciples went into the Judean countryside, and he remained there with them and was baptizing. 23 John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because water was plentiful there, and people were coming and being baptized 24 (for John had not yet been put in prison).

25 Now a discussion arose between some of John’s disciples and a Jew over purification. 26 And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, he who was with you across the Jordan, to whom you bore witness—look, he is baptizing, and all are going to him.” 27 John answered, “A person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven. 28 You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ, but I have been sent before him.’ 29 The one who has the bride is the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is now complete. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease.” [10]

31 He who comes from above is above all. He who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven is above all. 32 He bears witness to what he has seen and heard, yet no one receives his testimony. 33 Whoever receives his testimony sets his seal to this, that God is true. 34 For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure. 35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand. 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

 

[Love_is_Patient]

Hi Ag_not

I’m just responding to the sarcasm with sarcasm. I don’t think you need to settle the Protestant or Catholic issue right now. But, I really believe you need to settle what you believe in regards to the person of Jesus Christ. He was a historical person who made some wild claims about Himself. We can say that Jesus was either a liar, lunatic, or He is who He claims to be. Both Roman Catholics and Protestant believe that Jesus is God incarnate and Savior for those who believe in Him. Joining the Catholic Church or a Protestant Church will not save you from the wrath of God and the coming day of judgment. Only Jesus Christ can save you from your sin. How can we all help you believe in Him? You do need to receive Him.

I think she does need to settle the “Protestant or Catholic issue” because truth matters.

But, God be praised, she is becoming Christian. You need not badger her.

Love is Patient

 

[Reformed]

I think she does need to settle the “Protestant or Catholic issue” because truth matters.

But, God be praised, she is becoming Christian. You need not badger her.

Love is Patient

She’s here for a reason. Faith comes by hearing. If you do not want to share the gospel with her, just pray for her.

Romans 10

10:1 Brothers, [1] my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. [2]

The Message of Salvation to All
5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 or “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? [3] And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for

“Their voice has gone out to all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the world.”

19 But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says,

“I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation;
with a foolish nation I will make you angry.”

20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say,

“I have been found by those who did not seek me;
I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.”

21 But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”

 

[twb1621]

our salvation was purchased by the blood of Christ but until death we have free will to choose to follow Him or go our own way. God doesn’t take away our free will.

Reformed, when we discussed issues in the other thread did I understand you correctly that your original faith is Catholicism or am I wrong?

 

[Love_is_Patient]

She’s here for a reason. Faith comes by hearing. If you do not want to share the gospel with her, just pray for her.

Oh yes, God’s grace led her here. It’s a beautiful story. You should ask her to share.

But, might i suggest, sharing the Gospel is more than copying and pasting verses.

Love is Patient

 

[Ag_not]

She’s here for a reason. Faith comes by hearing. If you do not want to share the gospel with her, just pray for her.

Reformed - first off, I want you to understand that what Im writing is written with all honesty, no sarcism, and a genuine gratitude for your obviously heart felt concern about me.

Now, I cant get into the whole Do you believe in Jesus as your personal Lord and Saviour jingoism. Im not at that stage in my journey into faith. That just sounds too jingoistic and reminds me of all those guys on the tv that usually end their broadcasts with oh and send me 10 bucks and I GUARANTEE your salvation.

I went to a catholic mass on Sunday. It was awesome. I had a longing in my soul and heart and in the pit of my stomach to receive the Eucharist. Something I have never ever in my life experienced. What was driving that was the Spirit inside me yearning to recieve the Body Blood Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. I couldn’t. I must wait to be Baptised. So I shall. But I was told about making a spiritual act of communion, which I will next week.

So on that basis, and without tons of scripture in my head, I already know of the truth of the Eucharist, and my absolute need to partake in it.

I have a problem with the way you work on these forums, and please understand I say this with all charity to you. Your style is to answer a direct question with 4 of your own. You distract and divert from issues it is really clear to the reader you dont want to answer. When you are presented with information from a catholic perspective you simply dismiss it and then cut and paste reems and reems of scripture. Look at your posts. There’s usually one line of text from you and 500 lines of scripture. There’s no dialogue and no discussion. Just questions and cut and pasted scripture.

I cant learn anything from that approach. It’s like listening to a Bible thumping lunatic in an old black and white movie. I appreciate its your style. I just cant get anything from it thats all. But God Bless you for your intergity and consistency. I just think you have another agenda here - and that’s to proselytize Catholics. I apologise profoundly if Im wrong as I know how serious an accusation that is to make, but having read all your threads here, Im left with no other impression. Sorry.

 

[MerickOWA]

The question still ends up being a question of authority. How can we answer questions of salvation until we answer the question of Truth. When you hear something how do you know it to be Truth? If the Holy Spirit is to lead you and tell you what is truth and what is not truth, how do you know when the Holy Spirit is speaking?

The statement of faith we make is ultimately a statement of faith in the authority of the one who teaches us. We are stating that we believe in them and what they teach.

How can the Holy Spirit be leading you Reformed if you have only yourself to verify it? You can point to the Scriptures but you lean unto your own understanding of them, you have no authority who is backing your statements.

 

[Reformed]

Originally Posted by twb1621
our salvation was purchased by the blood of Christ but until death we have free will to choose to follow Him or go our own way. God doesn’t take away our free will.

Reformed, when we discussed issues in the other thread did I understand you correctly that your original faith is Catholicism or am I wrong?

No, I was never Catholic.

 

[Reformed]

Oh yes, God’s grace led her here. It’s a beautiful story. You should ask her to share.

But, might i suggest, sharing the Gospel is more than copying and pasting verses.

Love is Patient

Well, this is the Internet version of sharing of Christ and Him crucified on behalf of sinners. It is quite addicting too. I’ve been blessed to share Christ with people around the world through many Internet tools, such as Yahoo Chess and all religion websites. What’s the worst thing that can happen? All they can do is ban you from their sites for sharing Christ. It beats going door to door as a ministry. Copy and paste witnessing of our great God and savior is fun!

 

[twb1621]

Those of us who have a love of our Savior want nothing more than to learn about him and know the Truth. The problem is at times we forget we are limited, very limited in our capacity to understand Him as we want to. We look for what is sensible and understandable to us with our finite minds but infinity can not be grasped with our limitations. Stepping outside of theology and just simply researching the history of Christianity will provide the answer to which Church is that of Jesus Christ and for anyone to say that the Catholic Church was it until this time or that time is to claim outright our Savior is wrong or deceived us. Many of us with our devoted beliefs can recite scripture on one hand and yet disregard scripture in the same sentence but never see what we have come to. If one is to recognize the Catholic Church as ever in the past being the Church Jesus founded we better think long and hard about claiming it lost that for any reason at any time because you then blaspheme the very Word, Jesus Himself. Let’s start thinking about what we are saying, the desire is rich but the path we are being taken down is distorted and corrupt. Those “Christian Faiths” that are once and twice and three or more times separated from the Catholic Church are climbing in number upwards of 60000. That is because so many claim they know the truth but how many splinters will there be before we actually realize who is behind the splits.

 

[Reformed]

Reformed - first off, I want you to understand that what Im writing is written with all honesty, no sarcism, and a genuine gratitude for your obviously heart felt concern about me.

Now, I cant get into the whole Do you believe in Jesus as your personal Lord and Saviour jingoism. Im not at that stage in my journey into faith. That just sounds too jingoistic and reminds me of all those guys on the tv that usually end their broadcasts with oh and send me 10 bucks and I GUARANTEE your salvation.

I went to a catholic mass on Sunday. It was awesome. I had a longing in my soul and heart and in the pit of my stomach to receive the Eucharist. Something I have never ever in my life experienced. What was driving that was the Spirit inside me yearning to recieve the Body Blood Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. I couldn’t. I must wait to be Baptised. So I shall. But I was told about making a spiritual act of communion, which I will next week.

So on that basis, and without tons of scripture in my head, I already know of the truth of the Eucharist, and my absolute need to partake in it.

I have a problem with the way you work on these forums, and please understand I say this with all charity to you. Your style is to answer a direct question with 4 of your own. You distract and divert from issues it is really clear to the reader you dont want to answer. When you are presented with information from a catholic perspective you simply dismiss it and then cut and paste reems and reems of scripture. Look at your posts. There’s usually one line of text from you and 500 lines of scripture. There’s no dialogue and no discussion. Just questions and cut and pasted scripture.

I cant learn anything from that approach. It’s like listening to a Bible thumping lunatic in an old black and white movie. I appreciate its your style. I just cant get anything from it thats all. But God Bless you for your intergity and consistency. I just think you have another agenda here - and that’s to proselytize Catholics. I apologise profoundly if Im wrong as I know how serious an accusation that is to make, but having read all your threads here, Im left with no other impression. Sorry.

Thanks for your honesty. The gospel isn’t really proclaimed if there is not a strong reaction against or for it. This is an all Catholic Forum site. I’ve stated from the begining that I believe the official Roman Catholic gospel is a false gospel. But I believe that there is a remnant inside the Catholic Church in-spite of the official Roman Catholic gospel that is contrary to the Biblical gospel that saves sinners. I hope that you do indeed will one day know God through the living Christ. Many many people profess Christ as Roman Catholics and Protestants who are still dead in their sins and trespasses. The true gospel is an offense and foolishness to those who are perishing. It isn’t a message that you can receive apart from being born from above. Nobody can judge the heart and conversion of another. However, a true conversion is marked by repentance and a deep conviction of being a sinner. I may have missed it, but your testimony seems to be lacking repentance for your sins.

John 3

You Must Be Born Again
3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus [1] by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again [2] he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [3] 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You [4] must be born again.’ 8 The wind [5] blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you [6] do not receive our testimony. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. [7] 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. [8]

For God So Loved the World
16 “For God so loved the world, [9] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

 

[AshleyBelle]

The question still ends up being a question of authority. How can we answer questions of salvation until we answer the question of Truth. When you hear something how do you know it to be Truth? If the Holy Spirit is to lead you and tell you what is truth and what is not truth, how do you know when the Holy Spirit is speaking?

The statement of faith we make is ultimately a statement of faith in the authority of the one who teaches us. We are stating that we believe in them and what they teach.

How can the Holy Spirit be leading you Reformed if you have only yourself to verify it? You can point to the Scriptures but you lean unto your own understanding of them, you have no authority who is backing your statements.

:clapping:

 

[Reformed]

Originally Posted by MerickOWA
The question still ends up being a question of authority. How can we answer questions of salvation until we answer the question of Truth. When you hear something how do you know it to be Truth? If the Holy Spirit is to lead you and tell you what is truth and what is not truth, how do you know when the Holy Spirit is speaking?

The statement of faith we make is ultimately a statement of faith in the authority of the one who teaches us. We are stating that we believe in them and what they teach.

How can the Holy Spirit be leading you Reformed if you have only yourself to verify it? You can point to the Scriptures but you lean unto your own understanding of them, you have no authority who is backing your statements.

The gospel of God’s grace is quite uniformed. Here are some sites uniting Biblical Christians.

alliancenet.org/

reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reformed.org/documents/cambridge.html

monergism.com/

 

[Ag_not]

I may have missed it, but your testimony seems to be lacking repentance for your sins.

You have indeed missed it. I cried me a river for all the pain and suffering I caused God. I have still not stopped saying sorry. I have turned away from my previous work, I have turned away from my lifestyle, I have turned away from my habits and personal practices. Im an empty vessel waiting to receive my baptism into the catholic church.