So if the requirement is perfect obedience… then we are not saved by faith alone?
I took a look at James 2 as you suggested. But this only brought up more questions with regards to your statement
If we’re in heaven only because of Christ and our being in Heaven has nothing to do with works.
This seems to state that without works our faith is not fully complete. Wouldn’t this mean that in order to have faith … a complete and saving faith or “living faith” as you put it, that we must also have works of obedience?
I don’t think you can find a scrap of scripture to support such a statement.
I think you will find that love has very little place in Reformed Theology. I have had reformed members of CAF tell me that they are not obligated to love anyone unless they believe as they do (they don’t consider Catholics Christians, so we are not of the family of Christ, and therefore, not objects of the obligation to fulfill the Law of Love.)
You will find Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and tradition about the Jewish religous leaders. They were quite devout in their religion. Start with the Apostle Paul and Nicodemus. The elect pharisees were mighty servants of God as converted Christians.
I agree, but you said they were “righteous”. Jesus said the opposite. Lot’s of times!
Reformed, are you not confusing the self-righteousness of the Pharisees, with true righteousness which comes from God? The pharisees were indeed “righteous” in themselves…which is why their works were filthy rags. The jews who turned to Christ, were “God-righteous” because their works were done through the love and grace which comes from God.
No faith in itself is not what saves us. Faith is simply the instrument that we receive the grace of God. We are saved by grace alone through faith alone by the work of Christ alone. Grace is actually merited or purchased for us by the work of Christ. Faith is just the conduit which the grace flows from. Picture a light bulb for a second. The electricity (grace) travels through the conduit (wire) which turns on the light bulb. Grace is the power that powers the bulb. The switch needs to be turned on for the grace to flow through the wire and light up the bulb. God enables the hand to turn on the switch. The wire (faith) is just the pathway that the electricty (grace? travels. The Bible is specific revelation pointing to Christ, and it reveals the great good news of God about His Son. Please consider Romans 10. Do you think you would know about Jesus Christ and the gospel of God’s grace without the Bible?
There are simply two forms of righteousness. Which form of righeousness are you banking on for your ticket to Heaven?I agree, but you said they were “righteous”. Jesus said the opposite. Lot’s of times!
Being religiously devout does not make a person “righteous”. Being righteous is about being in right relationship to God, and one’s neighbor. They clearly were not.
Again, I’m confused by your statement about faith alone. If it is only Jesus’s works which merit any the saving grace, and we can only have claim to be associated with Jesus’s works through our faith alone in Him, why is obedience and works of love required? Why does James 2:21-22 indicate that works can complete faith? Isn’t faith alone sufficient?
You are a Protestant in the making. Your insights appear to be from God Himself.Reformed, are you not confusing the self-righteousness of the Pharisees, with true righteousness which comes from God? The pharisees were indeed “righteous” in themselves…which is why their works were filthy rags. The jews who turned to Christ, were “God-righteous” because their works were done through the love and grace which comes from God.
St. Therese speaks of the “little way” of following and loving Christ. You could say, that self-righteousness is living as if we were BIG and important to God… but it is by becoming LITTLE and allowing God’s grace to work through us, acknowledging that we are as little Children to God, that we avoid self righteousness, and God’s righteousness may flow through us
But back to the origninal questions at hand… You still have yet to reply to the previous posts
I really like that light bulb analogy. Yes, I learned about the Gospel of God’s grace from my parents years before I ever read a bible.
If you are trying to support that the Pharisees were righteous according to the Law, then you will have a lot of Jesus’ comments to dispatch about how they failed to keep the Law, as well as leading others to fall as well. I don’t think they fit either category of righteousness, by the Law of Moses, or by the Law of Christ.
Before I answer your question, I want to asked if we discussed before under a different screen name. I just wonder if I know you from another assumed screen name.
Well, you are a covenant child! The gospel that you heard from your parents, did it come from the Bible, or did it orginate from another from an extra-bibilcal source? Did it come from golden plates from up state New York…LOL! I only trust gospels that come from Holy Scriptures with either 66 books or 73 books.I really like that light bulb analogy. Yes, I learned about the Gospel of God’s grace from my parents years before I ever read a bible.
Of course not… I believe Old Testament Saints were saved by the person and work of Christ applied to their account before the incarnation. How do you think Old Testament Saints weresaved, by being righteous men… All the Old Testament heros of the Faith in Hebrews 11 were wretched sinners who happen to be vessels of God’s mercy and transforming grace.I really like that light bulb analogy. Yes, I learned about the Gospel of God’s grace from my parents years before I ever read a bible.
If you are trying to support that the Pharisees were righteous according to the Law, then you will have a lot of Jesus’ comments to dispatch about how they failed to keep the Law, as well as leading others to fall as well. I don’t think they fit either category of righteousness, by the Law of Moses, or by the Law of Christ.
That wasn’t my insight, though… it was a lesson I hold dear, given to us by the little flower, Therese. She is considered a doctor of the church
I would refrain from this if you wish to remain on CAF, Reformed. It is not a venue for you to encourage Catholics to leave their faith.
Yes.
I was brought into the New Covenant when I as baptized as an infant.At my baptism, my parents, Godparents and Church community promised to bring me up in the faith.
It is clear that you have a serious trust issue.
Your statement can be embraced by Reformed Christians too. As you know, many Reformed communites baptize their infants as being part of the covenant community. Do you think you were regenerated as an infant, or were you converted later in life? Do you remember having faith in Christ as an infant?Yes.
At my baptism, my parents, Godparents and Church community promised to bring me up in the faith.
Well, we read it differently.
Yes.
Both.
I don’t remember anything of my infancy to my knowledge. I was baptized on the basis of my parents faith. Jesus regenerated me according to His grace.Do you remember having faith in Christ as an infant?
So, what is the basis of salvation for Old Testament Saints. I believe Job stated that He knew His redeemer lived. Do you think that Job believed in another redeemer than Jesus Christ? If you say Old Testament saints were saved by grace through faith, is God unjust for fogiving Old Testament saints apart from the work of Christ…the answer is found in the book of Romans. Did you know that the New Testament is full of Old Testament Scripture?Well, we read it differently.
It is interesting that you would say that people can be saved before the incarnation, but Mary cannot be saved when she is conceived.
Anyway, We believe that “transforming grace” actually does transform people. They are no longer “wretched sinners” but shine as lights to the world in the kingdom of our Father. They are not snow covered dunghills, but embody the righteousness of God.
I agree, though , God’s method of salvation has not changed. All those before the incarnation were saved by grace, through faith also.
“In the days of King Herod of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly order of Abijah. His wife was a descendant of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 Both of them were righteous before God, living blamelessly according to all the commandments and regulations of the Lord.”
Luke 1:5-7
Ol’ Zachy and Ma Beth were righteous before God because they lived by grace, through faith. It is this grace that enables us to be obedient and follow the commandments.
The pharisees did not have this kind of righteousness, or any other kind of righteousness before God. As Jesus said, they were children of their father.