Religious affections and love for God

[Reformed]

I love this passage

So, you would agree, that even if someone has faith and believes in Christ, that is not enough to enter heaven? “The one who does the will of my father who is in heaven.” This seems to imply to me, that faith is not enough.

That’s a good comment! So, who perfectly does the will of the Father all the time? I think all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God, because we do not do the will of the Father all the time as Christians. Do you agree with me? Here is a relevant Bible passage in discerning the will of God. Please try to answer my direct questions in your next post, okay?

Romans 12

I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

 

[AshleyBelle]

That’s a good comment! So, who perfectly does the will of the Father all the time? I think all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God, because we do not do the will of the Father all the time as Christians. Do you agree with me? Here is a relevant Bible passage in discerning the will of God. Please try to answer my direct questions in your next post, okay?

Romans 12

I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

I tie this passage together with what he says in Galatians. We are to unite ourselves to the cross of Christ…so that we are transformed into a new creation. Our works done through the grace of Christ, working through us, become pleasing to God.

And I also agree, that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. But the fact remains, we fall short even after we have been given grace… So then, what are we to do when we choose sin over the works of the father which are made pleasing to God, because of Christ?
How do we make our works pleasing to God once more, when we have chosen sin?

 

[Reformed]

I tie this passage together with what he says in Galatians. We are to unite ourselves to the cross of Christ…so that we are transformed into a new creation. Our works done through the grace of Christ, working through us, become pleasing to God.

And I also agree, that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. But the fact remains, we fall short even after we have been given grace… So then, what are we to do when we choose sin over the works of the father which are made pleasing to God, because of Christ?
How do we make our works pleasing to God once more, when we have chosen sin?

Would you please go back to my posting and answer my questions in relation to our conversation of two or three posts before we continue? You were responding that only those who does the will of the Father will enter Heaven. We both agree that nobody does the will of the Father all the time. Therefore, do we conclude that nobody will be in Heaven?

 

[AshleyBelle]

That’s a good comment!** So, who perfectly does the will of the Father all the time?** I think all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God, because we do not do the will of the Father all the time as Christians. Do you agree with me? Here is a relevant Bible passage in discerning the will of God. Please try to answer my direct questions in your next post, okay?

Romans 12

I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

I would say Christ perfectly does the will of the father, because He perfectly follows all of God’s commands. Also, we know that Mary, because of her immaculate conception, is the perfect model for us of loving Christ, and thus the perfect model of obeying her son “Do everything he tells you.” She said. Notice, not “believe and have faith in my son…but DO everything that he tells you.”

 

[Reformed]

I would say Christ perfectly does the will of the father, because He perfectly follows all of God’s commands. Also, we know that Mary, because of her immaculate conception, is the perfect model for us of loving Christ, and thus the perfect model of obeying her son “Do everything he tells you.” She said. Notice, not “believe and have faith in my son…but DO everything that he tells you.”

We can at least agree that Jesus perfectly did the will of the Father. But how about us in light of Matthew 7?

I Never Knew You - Mat 7

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

 

[AshleyBelle]

We can at least agree that Jesus perfectly did the will of the Father. But how about us in light of Matthew 7?

I Never Knew You - Mat 7

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

I would say that this passage is referring to those who do mighty deeds "in the name of the Lord" but only perform those deeds EXPECTING Christ to allow them into heaven because of their works. God does not "owe" us anything.. But we owe God our love. Our works only merit salvation, when we acknowlege our littleness, and that it is not us working, but Christ working through us, in love:)

 

[fhansen]

I tie this passage together with what he says in Galatians. We are to unite ourselves to the cross of Christ…so that we are transformed into a new creation. Our works done through the grace of Christ, working through us, become pleasing to God.

And I also agree, that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. But the fact remains, we fall short even after we have been given grace… So then, what are we to do when we choose sin over the works of the father which are made pleasing to God, because of Christ?
How do we make our works pleasing to God once more, when we have chosen sin?

Sinners will not enter heaven. 1Cor 6:9-11 God in His mercy and by His grace will see to it that those who persevere in faith, love, and obedience will be perfected by that time. Why would He, or us, expect anything less? His purpose is to restore fallen man to wholeness.

 

[MerickOWA]

Would you please go back to my posting and answer my questions in relation to our conversation of two or three posts before we continue? You were responding that only those who does the will of the Father will enter Heaven. We both agree that nobody does the will of the Father all the time. Therefore, do we conclude that nobody will be in Heaven?

I agree that doing the will of God perfectly is impossible, most (if not all) absolutes are impossible for us, only God can" absolutely do" as his Will is perfect. This is why Jesus must be God in order for his sacrifice to be perfect. However, If we cannot or have no way of perfectly doing, why would God even mention works.

If we interpret Matt 7:21 as meaning “…but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven” to mean only Jesus (for only He could do so perfectly). Are all bible passages refering to works only refering to Jesus’s work? Then again, why do we need to love? It is Jesus’s love that matters not ours.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Sinners will not enter heaven. 1Cor 6:9-11 God in His mercy and by His grace will see to it that those who persevere in faith, love, and obedience will be perfected by that time. Why would He, or us, expect anything less? His purpose is to restore fallen man to wholeness.

Yes I am asking reformed, however…how do we once more, become capable of performing works which are pleasing to God, after we have failed? Is there a means by which we can re-enter this state of grace for Christ to work through us once more?

 

[Reformed]

Yes I am asking reformed, however…how do we once more, become capable of performing works which are pleasing to God, after we have failed? Is there a means by which we can re-enter this state of grace for Christ to work through us once more?

It is only through our vital union with Jesus Christ that are works or anything that we do is pleasing to God. Romans 8 reveals that those who are in the flesh (united to Adam) cannot please God in all that they do (including apparent good works done in Adam).

 

[AshleyBelle]

I agree that doing the will of God perfectly is impossible, most (if not all) absolutes are impossible for us, only God can" absolutely do" as his Will is perfect. This is why Jesus must be God in order for his sacrifice to be perfect. However, If we cannot or have no way of perfectly doing, why would God even mention works.

If we interpret Matt 7:21 as meaning “…but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven” to mean only Jesus (for only He could do so perfectly). Are all bible passages refering to works only refering to Jesus’s work? Then again, why do we need to love? It is Jesus’s love that matters not ours.

I think this bears re-posting.

 

[AshleyBelle]

As I see it theres 3 views of justification.

Justification by Works apart from Faith: Your good deeds allow you to attain the sanctifying grace for eternal life. Jesus’s sacrifice was not the only way to receive God’s sanctifying grace.

Justification by Faith apart from Works: Your faith in Jesus Christ allows you to connect yourself to Christ’s perfect sacrifice and thus to the sanctifying grace given freely by God for that perfect sacrifice. Nothing further is required for this process to take place after the initial proclamation of faith.

Justification by Faith Working in Love: Your faith and following baptism into Jesus Christ connects you to him, but your continued good deeds allows God to effect the freely given sanctifying grace.

And this:thumbsup:

It seems there is more than just “faith or works” concerning doctrines of justification. Which one is correct?

 

[Reformed]

As I see it theres 3 views of justification.

Justification by Works apart from Faith: Your good deeds allow you to attain the sanctifying grace for eternal life. Jesus’s sacrifice was not the only way to receive God’s sanctifying grace.

Justification by Faith apart from Works: Your faith in Jesus Christ allows you to connect yourself to Christ’s perfect sacrifice and thus to the sanctifying grace given freely by God for that perfect sacrifice. Nothing further is required for this process to take place after the initial proclamation of faith.

Justification by Faith Working in Love: Your faith and following baptism into Jesus Christ connects you to him, but your continued good deeds allows God to effect the freely given sanctifying grace.

Would you agree with these formula?

The Catholic formula for justification is: Faith + Good Works = Justification

The Protestant formula for justifiction is: Faith = Justification + Good works

The deficient Protestant theology of Antinomianism formula for justification is" Faith = Justification - Good Works

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Would you agree with these formula?

The Catholic formula for justification is: Faith + Good Works = Justification

The Protestant formula for justifiction is: Faith = Justification + Good works

The deficient Protestant theology of Antinomianism formula for justification is" Faith = Justification - Good Works

Catholic forumula:

Grace x (faith + works) = Justification

Grace comes first and makes faith and good works possible.

Faith is useless unless it is a living faith.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Would you agree with these formula?

The Catholic formula for justification is: Faith + Good Works = Justification

The Protestant formula for justifiction is: Faith = Justification + Good works

The deficient Protestant theology of Antinomianism formula for justification is" Faith = Justification - Good Works

The catholic formula is NOT faith + works = justification.

It is faith THROUGH works It implies a LIVING, breathing faith. A faith full of LOVE! What does “faith alone” mean, and how does it apply to what Christ asks of us?

How does the protestant theology imply that faith is made manifest? If works come after justification, then what is faith? What do you make of the passage “faith without works is dead?”

If you move works to the other side of the equation, you are removing an essential part OF faith.

 

[Reformed]

The catholic formula is NOT faith + works = justification.

It is faith THROUGH works It implies a LIVING, breathing faith. A faith full of LOVE! What does “faith alone” mean, and how does it apply to what Christ asks of us?

How does the protestant theology imply that faith is made manifest? If works come after justification, then what is faith? What do you make of the passage “faith without works is dead?”

If you move works to the other side of the equation, you are removing an essential part OF faith.

I think the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Council of Trent would support my view of Cathoilc justification and not yours. Did you know that the Catholic Catechism states that you are able to merit your salvation? Protestants proclaim that we are justified by the merit of Christ alone. Catholics do not believe this or teach this. Ashley, did you go through an RCIA class for a year before you converted from Protestantism to Roman Catholicism?

 

[AshleyBelle]

I think the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Council of Trent would support my view of Cathoilc justification and not yours. Did you know that Catholic Catechism states that you are able to merit your salvation.

Then I would have you are reading and inferring only what you want to hear from the catechism.

Please provide the exact reference for “the catechism states you are able to merit your salvation.” Again, I think you are leaving out that we “merit” salvation, not through ourselves but through the GRACE that comes from Christ, in a living, loving, faith

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I think the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Council of Trent would support my view of Cathoilc justification and not yours. Did you know that Catholic Catechism states that you are able to merit your salvation? Protestants proclaim that we are justified by the merit of Christ alone. Catholics do not believe this or teach this.

That is a flat out lie. I’ll assume you posted it out of ignorance, but now you will have no excuse:

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an “adopted son” he can henceforth call God “Father,” in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God’s gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47

 

[Reformed]

Then I would have you are reading and inferring only what you want to hear from the catechism.

Please provide the exact reference for “the catechism states you are able to merit your salvation.” Again, I think you are leaving out that we “merit” salvation, not through ourselves but through the GRACE that comes from Christ, in a living, loving, faith

Before we continue, please answer this question:

Ashley, did you go through an RCIA class for a year before you converted from Protestantism to Roman Catholicism?

 

[AshleyBelle]

If you believe that "Faith = Justification + works,

How does the protestant theology imply that faith is made manifest? If works come after justification, then what is faith? What do you make of the passage "faith without works is dead?

How do you “live by faith” as Paul teaches?