Reload this Page BAHA'I thread IV - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[Servant19]

servant19,

i will dignify your questions with a response unlike you who decided not to answer my question but instead asked a chain of questions as though they were sufficient to answer me.

Jesus was born in Bethlehem.

Jesus made Peter His vicar on earth.

i will have to go back and look at your response because i cannot remember your other quetsions accurately.

Yes please go back and answer the Kingdom of God question

As regards Peters successorship:

In the Gospel of Thomas, Jesus names James his successor: “The disciples said to Jesus, ‘We know that you will depart from us. Who will be our leader?’ Jesus said to them, ;Where you are, you are to go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into existence.’”

 

[eddie_too]

prmerger,

thanks for expanding my vocabulary with your use of the word inutile. just goes to prove a person is never to old to learn.

 

[daler]

I suppose if we were waiting for anyone but Jesus to return you might have a valid point. Jesus will return as Jesus, not someone else.

Do you not constantly quote from your “authorities”, daler? Are you telling me that your authorities do not matter and that you should have no trust or confidence in them?

Steve,
. Again, you have posted very well and articulated with precision your thoughts, which are most valid. Let me try to address them with as much precision as yourself.

. As to Jesus returning as “Jesus”, the son of Mary, with the same physical characteristics and identity, height, weight, and all normal human descriptions, this would stand in contrast to the way in which John the Baptist was the Return of Elijah, would it not?

. And what is to prevent the One Who said, “Before Abraham was, I am”, Who existed before the garment (human) of Jesus was woven of God’s will, from appearing in the garb of another mortal, constructed of God’s will, according to His grace and favor, and being born as a babe as every other Prophet gone before Him entered the world. Surely, if it be God’s will that He should “Return” in such a way, He would be subject to that Divine Will once again.

. As to authority, for the Baha’is, all authority is derived from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, Who has established Divine Institutions. for this Day, which comment upon all that was not revealed in His Holy Book. They have no authority to oppose His utterances and that which has proceeded from His Pen. Abdul Baha was given, by Baha’u’llah, conferred authority to interpret the Sacred Writings of Baha’u’llah. People such as myself, or members of the Universal House of Justice, have not the authority to “interpret” any of His Writings.

 

[eddie_too]

servant19,

regarding you misunderstanding of the concept of the kingdom of God as used by Jesus, it results from your refusing to use the aids Jesus gave us to help us make our encounter with Him more fruitful.

repeatedly, you and the other bahai resort to your solitary interpretations of sacred scripture. these intepretations are totally different from the interpretations RCs received from the men whom Jesus spent three years teaching. as pointed out many times, personal interpretations of sacred scripture have been used by thousands of men to justify their teachings. all of them reject the interpretations provided by the apostles and those who created the bible.

it is only natural that those who refuse to use the aids Jesus gave mankind to know Him better would fall in to error regarding the Person and teachings of Jesus.

 

[Servant19]

servant19,

there are a myriad of reasons to believe Jesus was the Messiah, but remember we catholics do not just believe Jesus is the Anointed One. we believe He is our Creator.

reasons: 1) He offered His life for our salvation; 2) He resurrected Himself from the dead; 3) He said He came to draw all men to Himself; 4) He worked miracles; 5) He has the words of eternal life; 5) He frees us from our sins; 6) He established a Church through which He and His teachings might remain present to all mankind until the end of time; 7) He fulfilled the jewish prophecies.

those are what i came up with off the top of my head. i imagine other catholics can continue my list.

now again, from where did bahaullah derive his authority?

Baha’u’llah derived His authority directly from God, nothing more nothing less.

Now you say Jesus was the Anointed One and your Creator.

How does someone sacrificing their lives for your salvation make Him your Creator?
He resurrected Himself, therefore He is your Creator?
Apollonius of Tyana resurrected a girl from the dead. Why is he not the Creator?
He did miracles? My friend there were thousands of miracle workers in that time.

How did He fulfill Jewish prophecies? 2000 years later there are still a nation of Jews.

 

[eddie_too]

servant19, what persuades you that bahaullah derived his authority from God?

 

[SteveVH]

Where was Jesus born Eddie, Nazareth or Bethlehem?

Bethlehem. Why?

Also who was His successor, Peter or James the Just?

Peter. Why?

You also said previously that the Kingdom of God was heralded in by Jesus, it was in the hearts of His lovers and followers. Well now you are making up interpretations to suit your own self.

*"He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:

“The Spirit of the Lord is on me,

because he has anointed me

to proclaim good news to the poor.

He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners

and recovery of sight for the blind,

to set the oppressed free,

to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”

Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”* (Luke 4:16-21)

Ask any Jew at Jesus’ time and there won’t be one who would say that the Kingdom of God was one found in a human heart…it was a literal, physical Kingdom on earth.

“My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders.” (John 18:36)

So, how was Jesus the Messiah? He never claimed it, so how do you know?

*"When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven."* (Matthew 16:13-17)

 

[Servant19]

servant19,

regarding you misunderstanding of the concept of the kingdom of God as used by Jesus, it results from your refusing to use the aids Jesus gave us to help us make our encounter with Him more fruitful.

repeatedly, you and the other bahai resort to your solitary interpretations of sacred scripture. these intepretations are totally different from the interpretations RCs received from the men whom Jesus spent three years teaching. as pointed out many times, personal interpretations of sacred scripture have been used by thousands of men to justify their teachings. all of them reject the interpretations provided by the apostles and those who created the bible.

it is only natural that those who refuse to use the aids Jesus gave mankind to know Him better would fall in to error regarding the Person and teachings of Jesus.

My friend, when we say Baha’u’llah is the return of Jesus in the glory of the Father, you tell us that He must fulfill the CHRISTIAN understanding of what that entails.

In exactly the same manner, therefore, when Jesus says He is the Messiah who will establish the Kingdom of God, then, by your logic He must bring about the JEWISH Kingdom of God, as in, a PHYSICAL ONE, not something in the hearts of all Christians

Does that make sense?

 

[Servant19]

“My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders.” (John 18:36)

In exactly the same manner Steve, Bahaullahs announcement that He is the Return of Christ is “not of this world”, the signs are “not of this world” and this is why Jews rejected Jesus and why you are rejecting Baha’u’llah

 

[Servant19]

So what makes you think that the teachings of the Catholic Church have any more divinity than the words and teachings of Jose Luis?

Also does anyone have an answer to this question please?

God bless and good night to you all dear friends

 

[eddie_too]

servant19, regarding the jewish belief in a physical kingdom of God, without question that was a part of the faith of at least some segment within the jewish population. however, all of Jesus’ apostles and earliest disciples as well as Jesus Himself were jews. consequently, it is safe to conclude that it was not the only interpretation of God’s promises to the jews. i am uncertain as to why you believ it was the only interpretation when it is evident that it was not.

 

[SteveVH]

Steve,
. Again, you have posted very well and articulated with precision your thoughts, which are most valid. Let me try to address them with as much precision as yourself.

. As to Jesus returning as “Jesus”, the son of Mary, with the same physical characteristics and identity, height, weight, and all normal human descriptions, this would stand in contrast to the way in which John the Baptist was the Return of Elijah, would it not?

No. John the Baptist was not a reincarnation of Elijah. John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah in order to herald in the coming of Jesus Christ. He was not Elijah.

And what is to prevent the One Who said, “Before Abraham was, I am”, Who existed before the garment (human) of Jesus was woven of God’s will, from appearing in the garb of another mortal, constructed of God’s will, according to His grace and favor, and being born as a babe as every other Prophet gone before Him entered the world. Surely, if it be God’s will that He should “Return” in such a way, He would be subject to that Divine Will once again.

You misunderstand the very nature of Jesus. Jesus, the second person of the Trinity, assumed human flesh, he did not “absorb” human flesh. Jesus does not possess human beings, using their bodies, as it were. He, himself, became the man, Jesus Christ, and he will for eternity be Jesus Christ and not some other identity.

. As to authority, for the Baha’is, all authority is derived from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, Who has established Divine Institutions. for this Day, which comment upon all that was not revealed in His Holy Book. They have no authority to oppose His utterances and that which has proceeded from His Pen. Abdul Baha was given, by Baha’u’llah, conferred authority to interpret the Sacred Writings of Baha’u’llah. People such as myself, or members of the Universal House of Justice, have not the authority to “interpret” any of His Writings.

Do you not place your confidence and trust in the interpretations of Abdul Baha? Why would you then criticize others for placing their trust and confidence in the leaders of their religion?

 

[eddie_too]

another interesting point is that Jesus came within the jewish tradition. bahaullah did not reside within the christian tradition.

it seems presumptuous to claim that Jesus understanding of His sacred scriptures and traditions supports the idea that bahaullah, coming from outside of the tradition established by Jesus, parallels Jesus in changing the traditions received from Jesus. Jesus was not an interloper into the jewish faith. unlike bahaullah Jesus emerges from within the jewish faith.

 

[Servant19]

servant19, regarding the jewish belief in a physical kingdom of God, without question that was a part of the faith of at least some segment within the jewish population. however, all of Jesus’ apostles and earliest disciples as well as Jesus Himself were jews. consequently, it is safe to conclude that it was not the only interpretation of God’s promises to the jews. i am uncertain as to why you believ it was the only interpretation when it is evident that it was not.

Interpretations, my friend, are always many. Especially when a large proportion of time has lapsed since the Chosen One has spoken.

Often the most “traditionally stable and well founded” interpretation is the wrong interpretation. Just ask that well founded and traditionally sound rabbinic institution at the temple

You can keep sticking to your guns brother, but history has proven again and again that sticking to tradition is not always a good thing

 

[eddie_too]

not always, but sometimes it is a good thing to stick to tradition. it is especially a good thing to stick to tradition when it comes directly from God Himself, Jesus our Lord.

 

[SteveVH]

In exactly the same manner Steve, Bahaullahs announcement that He is the Return of Christ is “not of this world”, the signs are “not of this world” and this is why Jews rejected Jesus and why you are rejecting Baha’u’llah

Excuse me, Servant, but did you not just state the following:

Originally Posted by **
Ask any Jew at Jesus’ time and there won’t be one who would say that the Kingdom of God was one found in a human heart…it was a literal, physical Kingdom on earth**.

Are you now agreeing that the kingdom of God is not of this world, rather than your previous statement that it is a “literal, physical Kingdom on earth”?

I would also be interested in your comments concerning the rest of that post. You were proven wrong, by Christian Scripture, on each and every assertion you made. How do you respond?

 

[eddie_too]

also, we should always remember that Jesus never spoke about men being manifestations of God. that is something on to which bahaullah hangs his hat, so to speak.

of course, bahaullah’s use of manifestations of God are present in other non-christian religions besides bahai. it is nowhere present in either judaism or christianity.

it seems bahaullah gets this concept from other non-christian religions. it is neither new nor unique to bahaullah.

 

[Nick44]

servant19,

regarding you misunderstanding of the concept of the kingdom of God as used by Jesus, it results from your refusing to use the aids Jesus gave us to help us make our encounter with Him more fruitful.

repeatedly, you and the other bahai resort to your solitary interpretations of sacred scripture. these intepretations are totally different from the interpretations RCs received from the men whom Jesus spent three years teaching. as pointed out many times, personal interpretations of sacred scripture have been used by thousands of men to justify their teachings. all of them reject the interpretations provided by the apostles and those who created the bible.

it is only natural that those who refuse to use the aids Jesus gave mankind to know Him better would fall in to error regarding the Person and teachings of Jesus.

Faith and belief is a gift from God.

Jesus was asked why he spoke in parables and He answered:
“…Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given”. (Matthew 13:11)

Baha’u’llah said: “Be thankful to God for having enabled you to recognize His cause.” (The Dawnbreakers pg 586)

 

[eddie_too]

in at least one real sense, all men are manifestations of God. i realize that the bahai use that term in a manner that restricts its meanings to certain men in history. i am not sure how the bahai definition results in only those the bahai want to include being included and all others excluded.

according to the RCC, all of creation is made in God’s image (that includes humans), but only mankind is made in God’s likeness. that is why i wrote that in at least one sense, all men are manifestations of God.

 

[SteveVH]

Steve,
. Thank you for your concise response in which you have articulated your position well, for it brings us, I think, to the crux of the matter and focusses with precision the difficulties we face, and may provide a means for examining the areas of which we differ.

. As I understand you, and please correct me if I am wrong in this analysis, one of the essential characteristics and the pillars of your faith upon which it stands is your belief in the unerring ability of the leaders of “His Church” to discern when and where the “Return” shall take place, and until “they”, the leaders of His Church, who have unerring authority, tell you, Steve, that “He has come”, you will not believe in Him, whether He presented Himself to you whether directly or indirectly.

We will not have to depend upon anyone to discern when Jesus returns. The entire world will know the moment it happens, believers and unbelievers alike. It will be an instantaneous world event.

. Please correct me if I am wrong here, for I am being utterly serious and sincere in wanting to understand your position which is, if I am following what you are saying, that “He Himself” appearing before you would not be a sufficient proof for you without the accompaniment of, and the support of, the leaders of the Church to acknowledge Him first.

Not at all. See above.

. Is this your position and, if so, how would this differ from the human fallibility of the Pharisees and leaders of the Jewish Church who, at the time Jesus, the Lord of the Vineyard, appeared before them 2000 years ago? For they, too, regarded themselves as the unerring leaders, preserved from error, who would indeed be the first to recognize. Yet having failed to recognize John the Baptist as the promised Return of Elijah, this justification alone was sufficient for them to reject Jesus as the Messiah.

No, that is not my position. The Jews expected exactly what you expect. A Messiah who will come to set up an earthly kingdom.

. If you will kindly examine the major topics and answer them one by one I would be most appreciative and then we can proceed from there. Thank you so much for the clarity with which you posted.

You are more than welcome.