Remain isolated or restart the economy?

[EssentialBeing]

It will take at least 12-18 months for a vaccine and that’s not even very realistic. Realistically it will take much longer and it is also possible no vaccine will be developed

Yes this seems to be what experts fear the most, but we must give modern medicine a chance because the alternative would suggest that we just let the weak ones die. I guess we must have faith that a medical solution will be found sooner rather than later.

 

[rosejmj]

While a medical solution would be great, it would be stupid to keep the economy shut down until a medical solution is foubd because there is no guarantee of there being one or of how long it would take

 

[LisaB]

For those who favor remaining under lockdown to save lives, how long do you think it’s realistic to allow the lockdown to continue? A year? Two years? Let’s say the curve is flattened and the number of new cases stays consistent week after week, not going up or down too much. How long do we wait for cases to drop before opening back up?

 

[EssentialBeing]

I can see your point of view, however it makes much more sense to minimize the casualties & again comes down to the question of; What do you value more?

YOUR MONEY or YOUR LIFE

I would say that if you are able to re-structure your life to stay home more then do so & if not then you put yourself, friends & family at much greater risk. Its about minimizing the risk to life by not being in physical contact with others if possible

 

[rosejmj]

I value life and believe beginning the process of reopening the economy will be better for lives. I do not think what we are doing now is saving lives in the long run. I think the death rate is muh lower than we originally thought and that many people have already been exposed. I know countless people who think they may have already gotten it within their family, but if course there are not enough tests to see. I think we may see the countries or states that are not as restricting may peak earlier, but in the long run may mot have any more deaths than all the places that shut down, plus the added benefit that they open sooner and hurt their economy less

 

[HomeschoolDad]

He didn’t close everything. How is he going to reopen it?

He’s not. But he could stoke the fires of resentment and restlessness, not to mention all of the people who (with very good reason) want to hurry up and get back to work, and all of this could push things in an unwise direction. On the other hand, if he would urge everyone to err on the side of caution, presidential leadership in this matter could go a long way, and many thousands of people could be saved. It would not take much for the virus to start spreading ten-fold or more.

 

[EssentialBeing]

I value life and believe beginning the process of reopening the economy will be better for lives

Do you mean it will save lives or make no difference?

There are many insightful topics being discussed on CAF & the philosophical will tell you that humanity is being challenged to change its ways which i believe will lead us all to individually face & finally answer the meaning of life

This virus is only really an extension or evolution of humanity’s past encounters with pestilence. The challenges we face are extremely important pivotal moments for humanity where decisions being made at the moment will shape our immediate & distant futures (such as our most recent world changing moment SEP11)

I simply believe that both are important (economy & life itself) just to differing degrees. Even though both are important, humanity still faces the question

How do we proceed with both? Isolation or Economy? a healthy balance for both?

 

[CathBoy1]

Exactly, I’m just not sure that closing everything down was the right course of action and it is doing many, more harm than good.

Influenza has a softer touch. It pushes people who are already on the brink. Covid19 hurts for weeks and when it requires hospitalization it’s ICU.
We can resuscitate the economy.
We can’t bring back the dead.

You ignore the fact that self quarantine is doing more harm than good all you want, the fact is, the CDC has stated ultimately weather we self quarantine or not, we still will contract Covid-19, the only thing self quarantine will do is possibly slow the spread (hence people are going to die with or without quarantine and shutdown), however the massive amount of debt accumulated for those who already struggle to pay bills, the damage to small businesses, people losing their businesses and livelihoods.

Perhaps it is easy for those such as yourself that are in a situation that allows you to enjoy being home for weeks on end like one big vacation, but it is not so for all of us, so don’t speak on things you so obviously no nothing of.

Those who are at highest risk (especially the elderly) should quarantine, however the shutdown on a whole was done out of a panic over a virus that wasn’t fully understood, and continuing on this cours, in my opinion is a mistake.

 

[EssentialBeing]

It is interesting to note the question…How much of the economy could be run in isolation or physical shut down?

 

[EssentialBeing]

Those who are at highest risk (especially the elderly) should quarantine, however the shutdown on a whole was done out of a panic over a virus that wasn’t fully understood, and continuing on this cours, in my opinion is a mistake.

Whilst this sounds like a good solid solution & may be exactly what is already occurring at the moment. This also suggest that only the STRONG & the HEALTHY go to work whilst anyone with an ailment stay home.

I don’t know if this will work from an economic perspective?

 

[CathBoy1]

Whilst this sounds like a good solid solution & may be exactly what is already occurring at the moment. This also suggest that only the STRONG & the HEALTHY go to work whilst anyone with an ailment stay home.

I don’t know if this will work from an economic perspective?

The problem with everybody stay at home is that it is honestly not a solution, the CDC has admitted as much, it will only help to slow the spread, it will not stop the virus, therefore the shutdown/quarantine isn’t saving anyone, only causing harm and panic.

Even their claims that it is helping to slow down the spread are called into question, they estimated at the outset a much higher death count, which in itself calls into question their claims on how fast and how deadly this virus actually is.

 

[EssentialBeing]

it will only help to slow the spread, it will not stop the virus

This could be true but the strategy in question would be to slow it down in the hope of ever finding the vaccine and or cure.

I Agree that ultimately every human will carry the DNA of this virus wether by vaccination or infection, very much like we have done with all of our previous viruses.

Maybe we are to balance the loss of life in comparison to the loss of income & therefore reduced standard of living.

Economy & Life & how they are intertwined seems to be the combination that needs much further thought & discussion for all of us to arrive at an acceptable balance for the majority.

 

[Dr_Meinheimer]

Here are some than cannot:

• barbers
• stylists
• hospitality industry
• Anything with athletics (personal trainers, all sports)
• Grocers
• policemen
• fireman
• all surgeries would cease
• the entire energy sector (oil, coal, nuclear wind, solar, hydro)
• All utilities
• Pharmacies (could go exclusively to mail-order possibly)
• Construction (both new and existing homes would cease)
• any intelligence/defense contracting work classified at Secret or higher
• entire branches of the federal government that handles work classified at Secret or above would disappear (millions of jobs)
• national security would fall close to zero without an intel community

Just off the top of my head with no caffeine yet. There are dozens more.

To change these things is impossible, or would require such an economic overhaul that would take years, at a cost that is untenable (secure, classified networks in the home of millions of personnel who work in defense, for example).

Life is dangerous. Too many people act like this is a simple, no brainer issue of “one restaurant closed = 3 lives saved” and if it were, I’d think a more serious discussion would be warranted. This however, simply isn’t true. We have no right to be glib and knowingly allow folks to die, however we don’t have an obligation or right per se to destroy people’s lives or society for the possibility that we may save some lives, since we cannot say whether this course of action will in fact save more lives in the long run, or end them, or simply not matter.

 

[CathBoy1]

This however, simply isn’t true. We have no right to be glib and knowingly allow folks to die, however we don’t have an obligation or right per se to destroy people’s lives or society for the possibility that we may save some lives, since we cannot say whether this course of action will in fact save more lives in the long run, or end them, or simply not matter.

Exactly, and I think your last line hits the nail on the head, it simply won’t matter.

 

[Anrakyr]

For those who favor remaining under lockdown to save lives, how long do you think it’s realistic to allow the lockdown to continue? A year? Two years?

A few months. We let the pandemic burn out and remain watchful for new pockets of infection. We then locally shut down the sectors with flare ups. This becomes our new normal till a vaccine is devolped.

Till then, the goal is too cripple it’s global random seeming spread.

 

[EssentialBeing]

Exactly, and I think your last line hits the nail on the head, it simply won’t matter .

I believe Dr-Meinheimer is saying

we cannot say whether this course of action will in fact save more lives in the long run, or end them, or simply not matter.

There is no suggestion that IT SIMPLY WONT MATTER it sounds like he is saying that we can NOT say THAT IT WONT MATTER as nobody knows the outcome without actually going through with it.

 

[CathBoy1]

There is no suggestion that IT SIMPLY WONT MATTER it sounds like he is saying that we can NOT say THAT IT WONT MATTER as nobody knows the outcome without actually going through with it.

And we can’t say that it will matter, I believe that to be the thrust of his post.

What we can determine is that thus far, what was originally believed about how deadly and how fast covid-19 was going to be, has been shown to be completely blown out of proportion, and we should take this into consideration moving forward.

I can tell you and I aren’t going to agree on this, however I will say that destroying people’s lives is not the right course of action and that is exactly what this quarantine/shutdown is doing.

 

[EssentialBeing]

I admire your view & respect the opinion you put forward & it is good to see that we can both have a civil discussion coming from totally different views.

I will say that destroying people’s lives is not the right course of action and that is exactly what this quarantine/shutdown is doing.

This statement is TRUE for many but NOT for all, it is totally dependent on how intertwined we as individuals are with capitalism, how much do we rely on our money for security? do we need to work to provide shelter & food? do we have financial debt? etc.

Economic pressure seems to be the main reason we may all feel trapped and helpless without work or income. I must say that not everybody has these restrictions and peoples priority’s are not all aligned with the need to work.

If we feel that LIFE is not worth living without work, then we may all be lacking innovation, imagination & clarity on what it means to be ALIVE.

I certainly DON’T believe that work is the only reason to live.

 

[PetraG]

The problem with everybody stay at home is that it is honestly not a solution, the CDC has admitted as much, it will only help to slow the spread, it will not stop the virus , therefore the shutdown/quarantine isn’t saving anyone, only causing harm and panic.

Even their claims that it is helping to slow down the spread are called into question, they estimated at the outset a much higher death count, which in itself calls into question their claims on how fast and how deadly this virus actually is.

How is there some question how deadly this virus is?

In 2017, the total number of deaths in the state of New York was 155,191 health.ny.gov/statistics/vital_statistics/2017/table31a.htm
That’s 12,933 a month or 425 a day. Look up how many days the total of deceased New Yorkers in a day has gone over 800 or even 1000 for COVID-19 alone! How is that not serious enough for you? You could think they were falsely attributing deaths that were due to some other cause to COVID-19, and you still can’t dismiss those awful numbers!

I live in Oregon, a state that had a first COVID-19 death on Mar. 14, the same day as the first confirmed COVID-19 death in the state of New York. They have had 111.7 COVID-19 deaths per 1,000. We’ve had 2.1 per 1,000.

Do not try to tell me that the transmission of a virus (R-naught) has nothing to do with the number of contacts the average infected persons has. That’s simply false. It is not inevitable that every person in a population is going to be exposed to the infectious agent in a pandemic, particularly not when the agent is relatively difficult to spread (as compared to, say, the measles).

Even when the measles went around–and the measles is far more contagious than SARS-CoV-2–quarantining made a difference. That is why the ability to quarantine and isolate is among the police powers of the States in the US.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

LisaB:

For those who favor remaining under lockdown to save lives, how long do you think it’s realistic to allow the lockdown to continue? A year? Two years?

A few months. We let the pandemic burn out and remain watchful for new pockets of infection. We then locally shut down the sectors with flare ups. This becomes our new normal till a vaccine is devolped.

I couldn’t agree more. Just a wild guess, I would say August, possibly July.

Here are some than cannot:

• barbers
• stylists

I gave up barbers earlier this year. My haircuts consist of shaving down to the bare scalp every 2 or 3 days, cheapest haircut on the planet, no maintenance whatsoever. Shampoo and combs belong to my past.

I have offered to cut my family’s hair but they will have none of it.