Republican hopefuls in TV debate

  • Thread starter Thread starter gilliam
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Santorum lost to an Irish Catholic Democrat. Most people in Pennsylvania are either Irish, Catholic, Democrat, or some combination. How could a principled man defeat a man who says yes to everyone on everything? Until now, being a yes man was the easiest job in the world.
True enough, but losing by 18 points seems to imply more than just not having the right religous/party/ethnic combination. And, he is Catholic and Italian himself. If memory serves, Casey, his opponent was one of those “pro-life” Democrats that pro-life liberals fool themselves into thinking they’ll actually vote pro-life.

Ishii
 
We pass judgement all the time, Cmatt - you included. If you wrongly call the tea party movement “extreme right” I will most certainly “pass judgement” on your mischaracterization. The tea party has been demonized by others since they began- usually they are called “racists”, but calling them “extreme right wing” is another attempt to demonize them. The left uses scare tactics against their opponents regularly - as Nancy Pelosi’s recent comments show - she said, “Republicans want women to die on the floor”. (there is another thread on that). Yes, the left routinely demonizes their opponents and engages in scare tactics. I would not want to be associated with such a group.

Ishii
You apparently missed Republicans and Tea Party adherents with their posters of Obama in a Hitler mustache.
 
I like Kucinich. He’s one of the few politicians, let alone liberals, that I respect.
You don’t need to sell me on Kucinich. I voted for him in the 2004 primary after Kerry already had the nomination sewn up by the time my state voted. 👍
 
You apparently missed Republicans and Tea Party adherents with their posters of Obama in a Hitler mustache.
The Bush Hitler posters were much, much more numerous, so the few Obama Hitler incidents are hardly indicative of a more polarized Right.
 
Santorum has a very impressive public record, including national office. He is correct on all the issues (at least from a Catholic pov), and he certainly has far more to offer than does Cain or Romney–yet he has not been crowned by the GOP of the media, so he is out. Of course, if Catholics actually kept their faith when they voted, Santorum would rush to the top, but we know it would take a huge change for that to happen.
I would agree that Santorum would be a good choice (best). But he and most republicans are grossly negligent in applying catholic social teaching. Basically the church is opposed to nuclear weapons and arms races that are not justified. The church puts the family unit at the heart of the economy and not profit and supports a just distribution of wealth while holding to free market principles and a limited government that adheres to the principles of subsidiarity. The church, as shown by B16’s numerous statements supporting a greater level of environmental stewardship, is opposed to our country’s wasteful and environmentally damaging lifestyle.

I think what has happened is that protestant errors on matters of the economy have been unwittingly adopted by conservative catholic politicians.

But the democrats are basically working for satan and aren’t even worth talking about.
 
You apparently missed Republicans and Tea Party adherents with their posters of Obama in a Hitler mustache.
We have seen scare tactics coming from the leadership of the Democrat party - most recently Nancy Pelosi. So who among the leadership of the GOP was carrying the Obama with Hitler moustache sign? A random wacko in the crowd is hardly reflective of the tea partiers. Nancy Pelosi, on the other hand, is the highest ranking Democrat in the House! So your answer falls short. In fact, show me any Republican of note who has said anything remotely similar to Pelosi’s statement “the GOP wants women to die”.

Ishii
 
You don’t need to sell me on Kucinich. I voted for him in the 2004 primary after Kerry already had the nomination sewn up by the time my state voted. 👍
I lost respect for Dennis Kucinich when he abandoned his pro-life position he had held for years so he could be the darling of the NARAL abortion lobby and the far-left. What a shame. If profits a man nothing who gains who gains the world, but loses his soul. Can anyone tell me why its necesary for those on the far left to be pro-abortion?

Ishii
 
I would agree that Santorum would be a good choice (best). But he and most republicans are grossly negligent in applying catholic social teaching. Basically the church is opposed to nuclear weapons and arms races that are not justified. The church puts the family unit at the heart of the economy and not profit and supports a just distribution of wealth while holding to free market principles and a limited government that adheres to the principles of subsidiarity. The church, as shown by B16’s numerous statements supporting a greater level of environmental stewardship, is opposed to our country’s wasteful and environmentally damaging lifestyle.

I think what has happened is that protestant errors on matters of the economy have been unwittingly adopted by conservative catholic politicians.

But the democrats are basically working for satan and aren’t even worth talking about.
How does one reconcile a “just distribution of wealth” and “free market principles” ? Who is going to do the distributing? Also, in what way does the GOP/conservative movement support damaging the environment?

Ishii
 
True enough, but losing by 18 points seems to imply more than just not having the right religous/party/ethnic combination. And, he is Catholic and Italian himself. If memory serves, Casey, his opponent was one of those “pro-life” Democrats that pro-life liberals fool themselves into thinking they’ll actually vote pro-life.

Ishii
I didn’t mean to imply that most people vote on ethnicity, etc. I’m saying that a yes-man politician has a decided advantage when economic times are good. But those days are gone. A practical man who knows he needs to stick to a budget can’t compete with a yes-man. But look at the mess that the irresponsible yes-men created = bankruptcy.
 
I would agree that Santorum would be a good choice (best). But he and most republicans are grossly negligent in applying catholic social teaching. Basically the church is opposed to nuclear weapons and arms races that are not justified. The church puts the family unit at the heart of the economy and not profit and supports a just distribution of wealth while holding to free market principles and a limited government that adheres to the principles of subsidiarity. The church, as shown by B16’s numerous statements supporting a greater level of environmental stewardship, is opposed to our country’s wasteful and environmentally damaging lifestyle.

I think what has happened is that protestant errors on matters of the economy have been unwittingly adopted by conservative catholic politicians.

But the democrats are basically working for satan and aren’t even worth talking about.
In a free market society, corporations which shop for “cheap” (labor) on one side of the coin are no different than you shopping for “cheap” (goods) at the chain big box store on the other side of the coin. Failure to see both sides of the coin is bliss. So, it sounds like you’d rather take the current equality and turn it into an inequality.
 
I would agree that Santorum would be a good choice (best). But he and most republicans are grossly negligent in applying catholic social teaching. Basically the church is opposed to nuclear weapons and arms races that are not justified. The church puts the family unit at the heart of the economy and not profit and supports a just distribution of wealth while holding to free market principles and a limited government that adheres to the principles of subsidiarity. The church, as shown by B16’s numerous statements supporting a greater level of environmental stewardship, is opposed to our country’s wasteful and environmentally damaging lifestyle.

I think what has happened is that protestant errors on matters of the economy have been unwittingly adopted by conservative catholic politicians.

But the democrats are basically working for satan and aren’t even worth talking about.
I strongly disagree that Santorum is grossly negilgent regarding social teachings. He does believe in a our capitalist economy, but that is because he also believes in each person having true liberty (one cannot authentically practice their faith without liberty, at least not without deep dangers).

Liberty in this world is a messy thing. If we desire liberty, than we cannot expect equality of result for everyone–in this fallen world that is NOT possible. So, we either go toward equality of result (in which everyone becomes the same and freedoms and faith are utterly crushed and controlled), or we go toward liberty in which there will be social strata and some people will not be treated as well as others. Santorum understands that well.

Further, the social issues mean nothing if we continue to kill babies through abortion, and if we continue to attack marriage and the family. One must be alive to care about, or receive the benefits of, the major social issues.

Santorum brings a powerful mix of Catholic teaching, faith, family, and real world experience. Yet, he is being nearly wholly ignored.
 
I see no great candidates here. Its a pick you poison situation. However as far as the aspect of “economy” I see no-one who makes more sense than Ron Paul. He is spot-on with his understanding and goal to fix the issue.

With the rest I hear political jargon. Bowls of notes which make no-music. Ron paul is making music. Do I think he’s the best candidate? Personally I like NONE of them. As stated this one aspect I believe he excells in.
 
I see no great candidates here. Its a pick you poison situation. However as far as the aspect of “economy” I see no-one who makes more sense than Ron Paul. He is spot-on with his understanding and goal to fix the issue.

With the rest I hear political jargon. Bowls of notes which make no-music. Ron paul is making music. Do I think he’s the best candidate? Personally I like NONE of them. As stated this one aspect I believe he excells in.
I like much of Ron Paul except the legalization of all drugs. People can’t even handle alcohol and porn, so legalization of drugs is going to further weaken a large portion of the population into dependency. Humanity is not that complicated. Humanity basically seeks pleasure and seeks to avoid pain. The crux is this: when faced with greater numbers of dependents due to legal drugs, what will taxpayers do: vote for higher taxes to pay for the dependency??? OR follow an Ayn Rand style of libertarianism where people are allowed to fail until the pain in their lives demotivates them enough to choose to change from harmful behaviors??? I believe there are too many bleeding hearts who don’t have the guts to allow people to be truly free and responsible for the results of their own choices, which would only sink the country even farther. On the other hand if 51% of Americans are willing to allow people to wallow in the ill effects of poor choices, then Ron Paul could be an answer, but it would be just too easy for the liberal media to show hordes of strung out Americans on the nightly news, followed by why we need to raise taxes to “help” them. There’s a serious risk of making things worse.
 
I like much of Ron Paul except the legalization of all drugs. People can’t even handle alcohol and porn, so legalization of drugs is going to further weaken a large portion of the population into dependency. Humanity is not that complicated. Humanity basically seeks pleasure and seeks to avoid pain. The crux is this: when faced with greater numbers of dependents due to legal drugs, what will taxpayers do: vote for higher taxes to pay for the dependency??? OR follow an Ayn Rand style of libertarianism where people are allowed to fail until the pain in their lives demotivates them enough to choose to change from harmful behaviors??? I believe there are too many bleeding hearts who don’t have the guts to allow people to be truly free and responsible for the results of their own choices, which would only sink the country even farther. On the other hand if 51% of Americans are willing to allow people to wallow in the ill effects of poor choices, then Ron Paul could be an answer, but it would be just too easy for the liberal media to show hordes of strung out Americans on the nightly news, followed by why we need to raise taxes to “help” them. There’s a serious risk of making things worse.
Right, and this is what I mean by pick you poison. All bring something to the table which is of interest. However in some area all seem to have major issues and are lacking.

I agree, we can stop the drug problem, we have never really bothered to. This is an area we can use our military and not to kill. All that needs to be done is coordinated strikes on the cocaine, poppy and marijuana fields. We come, they run. Destroy the make-shift facilitys/fields and hit them where it hurts. In the pocket. You do this long enough they will take their product elsewhere for sale of profit. Quickly this will become an underground small Black Market not a Nation Wide horror show on every corner of every major city. The say no to drugs and real help comes “after” the inability to find the drugs through scarcity comes. Minimize the problem, just like with abortion.

No different than the Golden Triangle. We are there, we don’t destroy their trade, thus we cooperate with it.

Peace
 
Santorum on the issues, from his own site:

Life and Abortion
• No abortions even in cases of rape; one violence is enough. (Aug 2011)
• I’ve not only taken the pledge; I’ve taken the bullets. (Jun 2011)
• FactCheck: Under 1/4 of pregnancies end in abortion, not 1/3. (May 2011)
• FactCheck: No, female suicide & crime not worse under Roe. (Feb 2011)
• Plan B morning-after pill is abortion, and dangerous. (Sep 2006)
• Exception for rape & incest ok, even though they take a life. (Sep 2006)
• There is no federal right to privacy. (Apr 2003)
• Voted YES on notifying parents of minors who get out-of-state abortions. (Jul 2006)
• Voted NO on $100M to reduce teen pregnancy by education & contraceptives. (Mar 2005)
• Voted YES on criminal penalty for harming unborn fetus during other crime. (Mar 2004)
• Voted YES on banning partial birth abortions except for maternal life. (Mar 2003)
• Voted YES on maintaining ban on Military Base Abortions. (Jun 2000)
• Voted YES on banning partial birth abortions. (Oct 1999)
• Voted YES on banning human cloning. (Feb 1998)
Rated 0% by NARAL, indicating a pro-life voting record. (Dec 2003)

Budget and the Economy
• Govt has averaged 18% of GDP and we’re now at 25%. (Aug 2011)
• Audit the Fed; but no gold standard. (Aug 2011)
• Stopping debt ceiling increase is showmanship not leadership. (Aug 2011)
• Voted YES on $40B in reduced federal overall spending. (Dec 2005)
• Voted YES on prioritizing national debt reduction below tax cuts. (Apr 2000)
• Voted YES on 1998 GOP budget. (May 1997)
• Voted YES on Balanced-budget constitutional amendment. (Mar 1997)

Civil Rights
• No polygamy; no gay marriage. (Aug 2011)
• Repeal Don’t-Ask-Don’t-Tell; punish behavior. (Jun 2011)
• Homosexual orientation ok; but homosexual act are sodomy. (Apr 2003)
• Voted YES on recommending Constitutional ban on flag desecration. (Jun 2006)
• Voted YES on constitutional ban of same-sex marriage. (Jun 2006)
• Voted NO on adding sexual orientation to definition of hate crimes. (Jun 2002)
• Voted YES on loosening restrictions on cell phone wiretapping. (Oct 2001)
• Voted NO on expanding hate crimes to include sexual orientation. (Jun 2000)
• Voted NO on setting aside 10% of highway funds for minorities & women. (Mar 1998)
• Voted NO on ending special funding for minority & women-owned business. (Oct 1997)
• Voted YES on prohibiting same-sex marriage. (Sep 1996)
• Voted NO on prohibiting job discrimination by sexual orientation. (Sep 1996)
• Voted YES on Amendment to prohibit flag burning. (Dec 1995)
• Voted NO on banning affirmative action hiring with federal funds. (Jul 1995)
• Supports anti-flag desecration amendment. (Mar 2001)
• Rated 25% by the ACLU, indicating an anti-civil rights voting record. (Dec 2002)
• Issue a commemorative postage stamp of Rosa Parks. (Dec 2005)
 
CATHOLIC Rick Santorum on the issues from his own site (
issues2000.org/Rick_Santorum.htm):🙂

On Corporations
• Cut all corporate tax rates to zero. (Sep 2011)
• Cut the corporate tax to zero, to create jobs. (Sep 2011)
• Cut corporate tax rate to zero & jobs will come back. (Aug 2011)
• Voted NO on repealing tax subsidy for companies which move US jobs offshore. (Mar 2005)
• Voted YES on reforming bankruptcy to include means-testing & restrictions. (Mar 2005)
• Voted YES on restricting rules on personal bankruptcy. (Jul 2001)
• Rated 100% by the US COC, indicating a pro-business voting record. (Dec 2003)

On Crime
• Voted NO on $1.15 billion per year to continue the COPS program. (May 1999)
• Voted YES on limiting death penalty appeals. (Apr 1996)
• Voted YES on limiting product liability punitive damage awards. (Mar 1996)
• Voted YES on restricting class-action lawsuits. (Dec 1995)
• Voted YES on repealing federal speed limits. (Jun 1995)
• Voted NO on replacing death penalty with life imprisonment. (Apr 1994)
• Rated 25% by CURE, indicating anti-rehabilitation crime votes. (Dec 2000)
On Education
• Our education system doesn’t serve the customer. (Sep 2011)
• Expose kids to legitimate debate of evolution & creationism. (Mar 2005)
• Voted NO on $52M for “21st century community learning centers”. (Oct 2005)
• Voted NO on $5B for grants to local educational agencies. (Oct 2005)
• Voted NO on shifting $11B from corporate tax loopholes to education. (Mar 2005)
• Voted NO on funding smaller classes instead of private tutors. (May 2001)
• Voted NO on funding student testing instead of private tutors. (May 2001)
• Voted NO on spending $448B of tax cut on education & debt reduction. (Apr 2001)
• Voted YES on Educational Savings Accounts. (Mar 2000)
• Voted YES on allowing more flexibility in federal school rules. (Mar 1999)
• Voted YES on education savings accounts. (Jun 1998)
• Voted YES on school vouchers in DC. (Sep 1997)
• Voted YES on $75M for abstinence education. (Jul 1996)
• Voted YES on giving federal aid only to schools allowing voluntary prayer. (Mar 1994)
• Rated 27% by the NEA, indicating anti-public education votes. (Dec 2003)
• Make employee educational assistance tax-deductible. (Jan 1993)

• Sagging economy caused by stop sign on oil drilling. (Jun 2011)
• Voted NO on disallowing an oil leasing program in Alaska’s ANWR. (Nov 2005)
• Voted YES on $3.1B for emergency oil assistance for hurricane-hit areas. (Oct 2005)
• Voted NO on reducing oil usage by 40% by 2025 (instead of 5%). (Jun 2005)
• Voted NO on banning drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. (Mar 2005)
• Voted YES on Bush Administration Energy Policy. (Jul 2003)
• Voted YES on targeting 100,000 hydrogen-powered vehicles by 2010. (Jun 2003)
• Voted NO on removing consideration of drilling ANWR from budget bill. (Mar 2003)
• Voted YES on drilling ANWR on national security grounds. (Apr 2002)
• Voted YES on terminating CAFE standards within 15 months. (Mar 2002)
• Voted YES on preserving budget for ANWR oil drilling. (Apr 2000)
• Voted NO on ending discussion of CAFE fuel efficiency standards. (Sep 1999)
• Voted YES on defunding renewable and solar energy. (Jun 1999)
• Voted YES on approving a nuclear waste repository. (Apr 1997)
 
How does one reconcile a “just distribution of wealth” and “free market principles” ? Who is going to do the distributing? Also, in what way does the GOP/conservative movement support damaging the environment?
The church doesn’t spell out how exactly to apply these principles, but it would involve infinitives which would promote micro loans, small/family run businesses over big corporations, local family run farms over giant agricultural companies, clean energy and environmentally sound energy production…, etc. And always, international coordination and oversight to help developing countries and efficient and just use of our natural resources.

It seems most republicans on this forum have never sat down and read or at least tried to absorb the ideas spelled out in catholic social teaching encyclicals but have been instead mislead into believing that the Austrian school of economics somehow can be reconciled with catholic tradition.

Instead of endless arguments over protestant-modernist distortions of free market economics and liberty, read CARITAS IN VERITATE yourself. You will quickly see that what the pope says doesn’t fit nicely with conservative talk radio economics. And guess what, all of these things would involve sacrifice for the common good. Protestants believe that God blesses you with wealth, catholics with suffering–big difference.
 
I like much of Ron Paul except the legalization of all drugs. People can’t even handle alcohol and porn, so legalization of drugs is going to further weaken a large portion of the population into dependency. Humanity is not that complicated. Humanity basically seeks pleasure and seeks to avoid pain. The crux is this: when faced with greater numbers of dependents due to legal drugs, what will taxpayers do: vote for higher taxes to pay for the dependency??? OR follow an Ayn Rand style of libertarianism where people are allowed to fail until the pain in their lives demotivates them enough to choose to change from harmful behaviors??? I believe there are too many bleeding hearts who don’t have the guts to allow people to be truly free and responsible for the results of their own choices, which would only sink the country even farther. On the other hand if 51% of Americans are willing to allow people to wallow in the ill effects of poor choices, then Ron Paul could be an answer, but it would be just too easy for the liberal media to show hordes of strung out Americans on the nightly news, followed by why we need to raise taxes to “help” them. There’s a serious risk of making things worse.
Right, and this is what I mean by pick you poison. All bring something to the table which is of interest. However in some area all seem to have major issues and are lacking.

I agree, we can stop the drug problem, we have never really bothered to. This is an area we can use our military and not to kill. All that needs to be done is coordinated strikes on the cocaine, poppy and marijuana fields. We come, they run. Destroy the make-shift facilitys/fields and hit them where it hurts. In the pocket. You do this long enough they will take their product elsewhere for sale of profit. Quickly this will become an underground small Black Market not a Nation Wide horror show on every corner of every major city. The say no to drugs and real help comes “after” the inability to find the drugs through scarcity comes. Minimize the problem, just like with abortion.

No different than the Golden Triangle. We are there, we don’t destroy their trade, thus we cooperate with it.

Peace
“Legalization” is not Ron Paul’s position. Decriminalization at the federal level is his position. He wants to reduce the federal government’s role in illegal drugs and put it back on the states and local communities that have closer, more rational control over the issue. Saying that he “supports the legalization of all drugs” is a gross misinterpretation of the position. If it is being done out of ignorance, that is one thing, but if the position is being intentionally distorted, it is a form of bearing false witness.

Q: In your 1988 campaign you said, “All drugs should be decriminalized. Is that still your position."
A: Yeah. It’s sort of like alcohol. Alcohol’s a deadly drug, kills more people than anything else. And today the absurdity on this war on drugs has just been horrible. Now the federal government takes over and overrules states where state laws permit medicinal marijuana 1 for people dying of cancer. The federal government goes in and arrests these people, put them in prison with mandatory sentences. This war on drugs is totally out of control. If you want to regulate cigarettes and alcohol and drugs, it should be at the state level. That’s where I stand on it. The federal government has no prerogatives on this.
Q: But you would decriminalize it?
A: I would, at the federal level. I don’t have control over the states. And that’s why the Constitution’s there.
 
The church doesn’t spell out how exactly to apply these principles, but it would involve infinitives which would promote micro loans, small/family run businesses over big corporations, local family run farms over giant agricultural companies, clean energy and environmentally sound energy production…, etc. And always, international coordination and oversight to help developing countries and efficient and just use of our natural resources.
These would seem to be worthy goals. The problem I see is that you will get catholics disagreeing on the size of companies - how big? The size of the farms - how big? The clean energy - How clean? Helping developing countries - how much money? Efficient and just use of our natural resources - who decides? Its great to have lofty goals and profess to be in line with catholic social teaching and the encyclicals and all, but as practical matter, who would implement and enforce all of this? It seems to me that its easy to agree on the goals, but how to get there is another matter.
It seems most republicans on this forum have never sat down and read or at least tried to absorb the ideas spelled out in catholic social teaching encyclicals but have been instead mislead into believing that the Austrian school of economics somehow can be reconciled with catholic tradition.
I have. But what I keep running into is the problem of how to implement all of these ideas.
Instead of endless arguments over protestant-modernist distortions of free market economics and liberty, read CARITAS IN VERITATE yourself. You will quickly see that what the pope says doesn’t fit nicely with conservative talk radio economics. And guess what, all of these things would involve sacrifice for the common good. Protestants believe that God blesses you with wealth, catholics with suffering–big difference.
I don’t think what the Pope says will fit with many - be they conservative talk radio hosts or otherwise. I would say that what the Pope says is probably more challenging to a liberal Democrat who believes in social engineering, welfare state, abortion on demand government than to a small government conservative.

God blesses us with suffering and wealth at different times or even at the same time. To focus only on one or the other is to miss the point. I believe that good catholics can disagree as to the means to implement the goals put forward in cartitas in veritate. The Pope is not necessarily an expert in economics - but he does know what the goals of a just society should be that properly reflects catholic teaching.

Ishii
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top