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latin_rite
Guest
The Church remains a moral compass for me. But the sex abuse cover ups sure did crack the glass on that compass
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rlg94086
Guest
JReducation is a brother not a father.
He is 100% correct. The authority belongs to the bishops and the bishops are going to correct the situation. Certainly, it is our duty as Catholics to inform our bishops of any wrongdoing by our priests and to inform the Vatican if there is wrongdoing on the part of our bishops. However, we must do so in humble obedience to the Church - not as an authority over our bishops. We have no such authority.
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redrosetea
Guest
In this year of the priest we must also pray for them…I have urged all of my friends to offer a prayer every Thurs for our priests
If we all did at least this much, I think it would help them a great deal
If we all did at least this much, I think it would help them a great deal
T
thealtonroute
Guest
Right on point. The Catholic Church in the U.S. has done everything it can to avoid disclosing documents relating to the transfer of abusive priests. In fact the former governor of Oklahoma compared some members of the Catholic hierarchy to La Cosa Nostra. Whether it’s shuffling around pederast priests or closing viable parishes that are far in the black, it’s impossible not to call into question the decisions of the Catholic Church in the U.S. (and Ireland too).
Here in my hometown in Illinois the diocese is closing our churches because of “shortage of clergy” and “expenses.” Yet I know of Polish, Vietnamese and American priests who have been turned away from staffing our parishes in town. After all the money and priests our parishes have given to the diocese and this is how we’re repaid?!? If the Church in Ireland is in tatters, it’s definitely in tatters here too.
Here in my hometown in Illinois the diocese is closing our churches because of “shortage of clergy” and “expenses.” Yet I know of Polish, Vietnamese and American priests who have been turned away from staffing our parishes in town. After all the money and priests our parishes have given to the diocese and this is how we’re repaid?!? If the Church in Ireland is in tatters, it’s definitely in tatters here too.
E
everblooming
Guest
I am a mandated reporter so I would be informing Child Protective Servcies as well. I suggest that anyone else who discovers abuse by a Priest does the same thing. In Ireland the police had been referring the allegations back to the Catholic church and now Ireland is apologizing for that mistake. In America our government-run social servcies department did not have this referral system – Thank God!
Having our bishops handle the wrongdoing by our priests is like asking a wolf to guard a hen house. We trusted the bishops to handle these cases for centuries. “Burnt once, shame on you; burnt twice shame on me.” As church members we need to hold ourselves accountable too. We also need to protect our children.
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redrosetea
Guest
I don’t know anything about centuries…do you mean decades?
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JReducation
Guest
I’m Brother, but that’s ok. I get Father all the time at the diocesan seminary when I teach there in the spring of every year. I guess it’s because the diocesan seminarians are rarely in contact with many religious men who are thoelogians, but are not priests.
Anyway, I am not saying that the issues on the table are not serioius. Nor am I saying that they can easily be wished away. That’s not going to make anything better.
What I am saying is that we, the faithful, including priests and religious, have to remember that we cannot take over our Church, because it’s not for us to take it over. Sometimes, we speak with an authority that we do not have. Only bishops can make decisions on these issues. The rest of us can keep them informed. But we have no decision making power.
People want transparency from the Church. Again, I have to say that this is not the way that the Catholic Church operates. It has never operated that way. It is not a system of government where the leaders are accountable to a constituency. They are only accountable to those above them.
I’ll give you a simple example in my own community. We elect our superiors for six-years. Once they are elected, we have no right to know what they know or speak up on anything without their permission to speak. We can keep them informed of what we see and even share our opinions. But we can’t go any further than that. We would be massacred by St. Francis himself. The Great Franciscan, Padre Pio said it best, “Obedience, obedience, obedience.”
Obedience means that we share what we have to share while we remember the roles and place of every member of the Church. Otherwise, we bring down on one side while trying to build up on the other. We bring down the traditional government of the Church, which has worked for the Church for 2,000 years. The idea is to resolve problems, not to bring down the system or a take over by those who do not have the authority to be in charge. Only bishops have that authority.
My point is that if you stop and think, there is a better way of saying things rather than say “we have to take back our Church.”
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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marci
Guest
I don’t think that the previous poster meant that the laity had any authority over the bishops, but that we need to stand up and fight to right the wrongs in our church. I hate to say this, but considering the pedophilia scandals, the homosexuals in the seminaries, the wacked out women’s religious orders, the CCHD grantees, etc., I don’t hold much faith that the majority of US bishops will do much to guard the church against scandal in their ranks. If the press hadn’t blown the lid off would we even know about it?
Also, I know that child predators exist in different groups in society, but I expect my bishops and priests, to be better than society. I expect that a catholic priest should be the least likely suspect of molesting a child. I expect that when mothers of catholic school children have to sit through hours of sexual awareness classes to volunteer in their child’s classroom, the instructors should at least acknowledge the fact that we are not the problem. I expect that I should never have to worry about my son being an alter boy.
What the laity CAN do is pray, speak up, inform others, report abuse (sexual and otherwise) and close the purse strings. Isn’t it amazing how that last one speaks louder than all the rest.
J
JReducation
Guest
All of us have a moral duty to protect our children and to use whatever systems are in place to do that. We also have to be very careful not to hurt ourselves by taking a position that is less than charitable. Many bishops did a terrible job at handling this problem. We can’t try to cover the sun with a dime. That does not work. The truth is that there was serious mismanagement of the situation. However, we must also remember that this is a very tough situation to deal with. I do not envy any bishop or major superior who gets this bomb dropped on his desk.
I do believe that many bishops did what they thought would help. What happened were two things: 1) It did not help and 2) When something does not help, you dont’ keep trying the same solution. But that’s spilled milk at this point. The course now is to put systems in place that may help. I say “may” because we won’t know for sure until they are tested. Let’s hope and pray that they won’t have to be tested.
I know that many dioceses and many religious orders have adopted the Virtus program. It’s a good move. Will it work? I don’t know. I don’t think that anyone does, until it is tested. But at least it’s an attempt in the right direction.
This is the link in case anyone is not familiar with Virtus and wants to recommend it to their parish and Catholic school.
virtusonline.org/virtus/index.cfm?NextURL=/index.cfm&msg=
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
J
JReducation
Guest
The bold is mine.
This is a good example of what I say we must avoid. Everything that is in this post is very good and helpful. However, the last statement is injurious. This does not improve the image of clergy and religious, either for those who are part of our Church or those who are considering entering the Church. If truth be told, individual priests and religious get very little money from their ministry. Secular priests are paid a very low salary. Religious do not get any salaries. We work for free. All money that enters the ministry stays in the ministry. The people who are hurt when the laity does not support their parish are the parishioners. It is wrong to punish the innocent.
We have to address the issues, but we must also maintain an attitude of charity and hope.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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Darryl1958
Guest
My guess is that about 99 percent of the priests and bishops in the Catholic church are fine, upstanding, totally dedicated people. Chances are, the priests you are going to meet will be people that you can trust just as much if not more than you can trust anybody else you meet. For every one person who has had bad experience with priests, there will be a hundred that have had just the opposite kind of experience.
In times of trouble, a priest is still a pretty good choice for somebody that you can turn to. They will be there for you when others are not.
In times of trouble, a priest is still a pretty good choice for somebody that you can turn to. They will be there for you when others are not.
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marci
Guest
D
DOShea
Guest
Very good point, Bro. JR about the Apostolic succession/power in the Church thing.
I believe the source of frustration, perhaps even what may be fueling the uncharitable suggestions or comments is how this whole situation really calls into question the idea of sanctity and what morals does the Church stand for?
I myself have replied to posts on here about how these problems are not “the Church” acting in some way, but only some individual men. While that is certainly true, it runs into a brick wall at the point where the “some men” are those who, as you say, hold all the legitimate power. It doesn’t seem rational that on one hand the evil is done at the hand of men, and that should not reflect on the Church because the Church is somewhere else morally than the men; yet on the other hand, the same men are the ones in power who are our legitimate (and in some cases immoral) representatives of that very Church.
Analogy: The Chief of Surgery at Happy Hospital and doctors working under him botch several surgical procedures and cover up the mistakes. How can we view this as not a hospital problem if they are the legitimate power of that same hospital? If the hospital isn’t them, who is it? More and more I’m having difficulty making a distinction on this.
While it is true our “power” is limited to appeal to other Bishops and the Holy See as legitimate powers who have the authority to act, one has to wonder why it should even take ANY act of laity, priest, or religious to do anything. Shouldn’t the other Bishops and the Holy Father WANT to act on their own to fix this sorry mess? Really, what does it say if they would not act unless hounded by all those without legitimate power?
This becomes definitely scary when we see the dicasteries have no problem asserting authority when it comes to issues like a small piece of the liturgy or who can receive communion on the tongue, yet in the face of earth-shaking moral failure, the reaction seems to be we don’t want to step on the Bishops’ toes lest we encroach on their Apostolic succession. That seems a very steep price to pay, to keep the authority intact for all when some clearly have dropped the ball. It would seem charitable to me if we elevated the importance of bad shepherding to the same degree the same Bishop would be held to account if his idea of proper vestments for advent was a purple tie-dye tee shirt and purple sneakers.
All the negative said, I know the Church will get through this. It is just frustrating - like watching a great hitter in baseball stand at the plate and let two perfect pitches go by for called strikes with no apparent desire to swing the bat.
I believe the source of frustration, perhaps even what may be fueling the uncharitable suggestions or comments is how this whole situation really calls into question the idea of sanctity and what morals does the Church stand for?
I myself have replied to posts on here about how these problems are not “the Church” acting in some way, but only some individual men. While that is certainly true, it runs into a brick wall at the point where the “some men” are those who, as you say, hold all the legitimate power. It doesn’t seem rational that on one hand the evil is done at the hand of men, and that should not reflect on the Church because the Church is somewhere else morally than the men; yet on the other hand, the same men are the ones in power who are our legitimate (and in some cases immoral) representatives of that very Church.
Analogy: The Chief of Surgery at Happy Hospital and doctors working under him botch several surgical procedures and cover up the mistakes. How can we view this as not a hospital problem if they are the legitimate power of that same hospital? If the hospital isn’t them, who is it? More and more I’m having difficulty making a distinction on this.
While it is true our “power” is limited to appeal to other Bishops and the Holy See as legitimate powers who have the authority to act, one has to wonder why it should even take ANY act of laity, priest, or religious to do anything. Shouldn’t the other Bishops and the Holy Father WANT to act on their own to fix this sorry mess? Really, what does it say if they would not act unless hounded by all those without legitimate power?
This becomes definitely scary when we see the dicasteries have no problem asserting authority when it comes to issues like a small piece of the liturgy or who can receive communion on the tongue, yet in the face of earth-shaking moral failure, the reaction seems to be we don’t want to step on the Bishops’ toes lest we encroach on their Apostolic succession. That seems a very steep price to pay, to keep the authority intact for all when some clearly have dropped the ball. It would seem charitable to me if we elevated the importance of bad shepherding to the same degree the same Bishop would be held to account if his idea of proper vestments for advent was a purple tie-dye tee shirt and purple sneakers.
All the negative said, I know the Church will get through this. It is just frustrating - like watching a great hitter in baseball stand at the plate and let two perfect pitches go by for called strikes with no apparent desire to swing the bat.
J
JReducation
Guest
Please don’t misunderstand my message. I for one would never underestimate the measure of the problem. The problem has been serious and there are several more that are equally serious.
Second, I don’t underestimate the frustration of the laity. If you think that the laity is frustrated, try to walk in my sandals and those of my confreres. We have done nothing worng, but we walk into situations such as these threads and we get bashed for the sins of others. This too is so frustrating to us. I for one do not want to walk down the street feeling ashamed or uncomfortable in my habit. I love being a Franciscan. I get great joy when I can find a home for a pregnant woman who is single and unwanted. When a teen looks at me and says, “Hi Brother or Father”, it’s a wonderful feeling to be there and just talk to them about Jesus.
This hurts us too.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
K
kimmielittle
Guest
emphasis mineI’ll give you a simple example in my own community. We elect our superiors for six-years. Once they are elected, we have no right to know what they know ** or speak up on anything without their permission to speak.** We can keep them informed of what we see and even share our opinions. But we can’t go any further than that. We would be massacred by St. Francis himself. The Great Franciscan, Padre Pio said it best, “Obedience, obedience, obedience.”
Obedience means that we share what we have to share while we remember the roles and place of every member of the Church. Otherwise, we bring down on one side while trying to build up on the other. We bring down the traditional government of the Church, which has worked for the Church for 2,000 years. The idea is to resolve problems, not to bring down the system or a take over by those who do not have the authority to be in charge. Only bishops have that authority.
My point is that if you stop and think, there is a better way of saying things rather than say “we have to take back our Church.”
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
Hiyas Brother JR
Or for this good Father to say the “Church is in tatters”??
He only compounds the problem IMHO
J
JReducation
Guest
I think that to say that the Church is in tatters is to give the Devil and evil too much credit. There is certainly a great deal of work to be done to help people heal, to make sure that this is dealt with in a more effective manner when it happens again, to minimize the possibility of it happening, to discipline those who have failed and everything else that has to be done. There is not denying these things.emphasis mine
Hiyas Brother JR
Or for this good Father to say the “Church is in tatters”??
He only compounds the problem IMHO
But to say that the Church is equivalent to the Titanic, sinking, is to deny or neglect the many good things and good people in the Church today. All that I have to do is turn on EWTN to see how much good is going on. I can visit a local parish and see the good and the beauty of Catholic life. I can reflect on my own life and say with all honesty that I have known hundreds of priests and worked closely with them and only one in several hundred has been involved in a scandal. The one of whom I’m thinking was involved with a woman, not a child. None of the hundreds of priests and religious with whom I’ve been involved have ever been enaged in this kind of behavior.
So, we have to keep those things in mind too or we lose faith in the Church, when the Church is really God’s work. He is still to be foiund in the Church. It will not collapse. We will heal. We will move on. God is good and God will not disappoint.
I have this belief that my father can do all things because he’s a king.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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everblooming
Guest
Dear Brother,I’m Brother, but that’s ok. I get Father all the time at the diocesan seminary when I teach there in the spring of every year. I guess it’s because the diocesan seminarians are rarely in contact with many religious men who are thoelogians, but are not priests.
Anyway, I am not saying that the issues on the table are not serioius. Nor am I saying that they can easily be wished away. That’s not going to make anything better.
What I am saying is that we, the faithful, including priests and religious, have to remember that we cannot take over our Church, because it’s not for us to take it over. Sometimes, we speak with an authority that we do not have. Only bishops can make decisions on these issues. The rest of us can keep them informed. But we have no decision making power.
People want transparency from the Church. Again, I have to say that this is not the way that the Catholic Church operates. It has never operated that way. It is not a system of government where the leaders are accountable to a constituency. They are only accountable to those above them.
I’ll give you a simple example in my own community. We elect our superiors for six-years. Once they are elected, we have no right to know what they know or speak up on anything without their permission to speak. We can keep them informed of what we see and even share our opinions. But we can’t go any further than that. We would be massacred by St. Francis himself. The Great Franciscan, Padre Pio said it best, “Obedience, obedience, obedience.”
Obedience means that we share what we have to share while we remember the roles and place of every member of the Church. Otherwise, we bring down on one side while trying to build up on the other. We bring down the traditional government of the Church, which has worked for the Church for 2,000 years. The idea is to resolve problems, not to bring down the system or a take over by those who do not have the authority to be in charge. Only bishops have that authority.
My point is that if you stop and think, there is a better way of saying things rather than say “we have to take back our Church.”
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
Sorry for calling you Father before. There probably is a better way of saying this than “we have to take our church back”. The priest at my church has preached that the we need to have more ownership. For example, he said that one Sunday he watched as the donation basket was passed from pew to pew and then to someone in the back row who ran out the front door with it. He was saying that we should all treat the Church like it belongs to all of us and that we could have done something. My guess is that no one even noticed that the guy ran off with it, I know I didn’t.
When the scandal broke out here, I was donating even more money to help out the Church. But the more I learned about all the effort to cover up and deny – it’s like re-victimizing the victims all over again. Validation is such an important part of recovery from abuse. I find it kind of strange that on this site and on these threads, it seems like more Catholics have empathy for the priests than the victims.
The only priests who I empathize with are the few who pursued complaints and prosecutions, almost always unsuccessfully, from the 1960s to the 1980s. I hope that someday, after the Catholic Church has made some long overdue changes, that some of these brave priests become canonized into saints.
Amy
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JReducation
Guest
Amy,
I appreciate your feelings. And I ask you to remember that the numbers of abusers are not as large as the media makes it sound. In fact, the number of abusers among Catholic clergy is very small compared to ther segments of society. Why do I post it this way?
One abuse is one too many. I don’t care if it’s by a priest or a next of kin, which is more often the case. That being said, we have to speak about the incredibly large number of religious men and women, priests and deacons, finally bishops, who are good people and are living faithful lives and making great things happen in the Church. All you have to do is turn on EWTN, if you like that station, to see the many great men and women whose lives are deicated to the Church and who are in the priesthood and religious life. Unless we keep this image alive, we can easily fall into the pessimism of the Protestant Reformers of the 1500s. Their weakness was not their concern with errors and abuse in the Church. Their weakness was their inability to see the goodness in the Church and the good people in the Church. As they focussed more and more into the problems, they lost touch with the Church. We can see the result today. They eventually lost touch with the faith and created their own version of the church, with all kinds of errors from which they have been unable to extracate themselves. Instead of a united Christian people, we have multiple Christian communities. But this happens when we do not remember the good.
As I keep saying, we cannot cover the sun with a dime, meaning we cannot cover the truth nor should we try. That being said, the truth is bigger than the abuses. The abuses are part of the truth. There is also goondess and holiness that dominates within the Church. We have to keep that in mind or we become very sour faced saints.
I agree with your pastor about ownership. Ownership implies caring for our Church. That we should all do. It implies making sacrifices and taking some responsibility for our Church. We should all do that too. But you know what, taking ownership means treating the Church as I would my own biological family. I woiuld not present an unbalanced picture of my biological family or tolerate another to do so either.
Finally, as I have told others. If you, the laity, feel badly about this situation, can you imagine what those of us who are priests and religious feel. For me it’s very hard to feel that everyone is going to think that I’m a pervert if I give a kid a hug. It’s very hard when everyone tells us that we can’t be in the parking lot alone with a kid. I’m not talking babies. I’m talkikng high school kids. The situation is such that we are not allowed to be in the parking lot with the teens, even if there is a group of them. There must always be two brothers or a brother and a lay person.
When I go out to do my ministry at the pregnancy centers, I can’t speak to a teenager who is pregnant without another adult in the room. Sometimes these kids do not want to talk in front of an audience. But I’m not allowed to speak to them without another adult, even if the door has a glass. The list of restrictions gets longer by the minute. We can’t even do vocation work with anyone under 18 unless their parent is present.
Many of us religious men and priests feel punished for the sins of the few. In the end, it’s religious men and priests who everyone looks at with disdain. Women religious and deacons don’t get such a bad rap. But we’re being clobbered with bad press and restrictions, while 99% of us are as shocked and helpless as the next guy.
I for one have decided to let it go. Meaning that I can’t change what the media says or what the laity thinks and I’m not leaving religious life because someone else messed up. I’ll have to live with the hard times. Maybe I can offer them up for the life of the unborn, which is my primary ministry.
We have to stick together and pray together. I wish I had a magic wand to make it all go away.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
E
everblooming
Guest
You are a really good writer.
J
Jimmy_B
Guest
**I have no problems with the concerns. I do have a concern of my own. When people who do not have authority make statements about “retaking over their church and holding their leaders accountable” it makes it sound as if we have authority over the bishops, which is not true. Therefore, we cannot retake anything. Because without a bishop, we are not Catholic, regardless of what we think.
Our Catholicism does not flow from our faith, but from our apostolic succession, which comes only through our bishops. Therefore, the only ones who can take hold of the Church are those who are already in power, other bishops and the pope. They are the only ones who have valid apostolic succession. The laity does not have such succession. Therefore, the laity has not authority to claim to take control of “their church”. That’s very Protestant language where the laity are in control, because they deny apostolic succession and the validity of Holy Orders and ordination.
We, as Catholics, believe that our Church exists only because the bishops exist. We who are not bishops, have no authority in this line of succession. We have a right to communnicate our concerns to those who can take over the Church from our bishops, other bishops, not us.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
**907 **“In accord with the knowledge, competence, and preeminence which they possess, [lay people] have the right and even at times a duty to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church, and they have a right to make their opinion known to the other Christian faithful, with due regard to the integrity of faith and morals and reverence toward their pastors, and with consideration for the common good and the dignity of persons.”
**
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