Reputation of Catholic Church ‘in tatters’, says priest

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It has taken me a while to find the words to post on this tread again. I found a number of posts robbed me of words. There seemed to be a desire to quickly move beyond what happened in Ireland. Comments like the church will move in its own time and sorry if that’s not good enough, or that you have a choice to move on or hold on to the anger, that the media will stir it up and we have no power over the Bishops. Paraphrasing I know just to long to quote directly. It just seems to me that there is no real desire to face up to any of this but rather leave it to the hierarchy of the church to fix it, in its own time and its own way and I am reminded of the quote "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing” and that is us if we leave it solely in the hands of Hierarchy because nothing was done and for them to say something will be done is at the moment hollow words.
I think that hopemercy summed it up well in the following.
Hopemercy
Those who are angry are more in hope; and we really need that the truth in all its horror is faced for what it is. Squarely faced and admitted in humility.
And all else based on that then.
Because even one child abused by a priest or religious is an obscenity. to a nation who are family oriented as Ireland is.
Things have to change and they have to change now. One of the things that galls me about all this and its one that people forget is that the Hierarchy did not voluntary start any of these investigations in fact at the start they hindered as much as they could, hiding behind rules and regulations, deliberate misdirection, no real spirit of co operation because lets face it if they wanted to this report could have taken a year not 3 years. But more telling the Hierarchy would have been quite happy to have no reports to leave things as they were. The only way that the church in Ireland can rise from this, is if the whole truth comes out not filtered or watered down. That those in power accept accountability for their actions because at the moment no one fully trusts any bishop because the question at the back of the mind is how much did you know. Unlike America all the Bishops of Ireland had regular meetings and so the question is valid. As long as that doubt remains the churches reputation will remain in tatters.
 
Sorry Brother this is not meant as an attack but I feel I do have to respond.
Let me just give an example. This has never happened among any of my religious brothers in our community. Thank God. It does not mean that it can never happen. There is no way that we can avoid this ever happening. We can minimize the possibility. One way to do so is to be vigilant and to have an effective reporting and correction system in place. But let’s assume that one of my brothers were guilty of such a thing.
After I hand it over the the proper authorities, I’m still bound to obey them, to love them, and to follow them. They may mishandle the whole thing and botch up the investigation. They may cover the sun with a silk drape. None of that changes the fact that my superior is the only legitimate successor of St. Francis and that I owe him obedience and love. I can report his incompetency to a higher superior, but when I get up in the morning and he says to me “You are to do X” I have to do it and I have to love him while I’m doing it. Any resentment on my part, because he messed up and I had to take the matter to the pope, is not allowed. If I did that, I would be excommunicated. Why?
Following your example and I am glad it is an example. So you say you report that one of your religious brothers is abusing kids. Your Superior does nothing about it in fact covers it up so you are saying you would go to the Pope and report it. Well and good but what happens when you find out that Rome has sent an instruction that all abuse complaints are to be reported to Rome only and not to anyone else and also that this instruction is to remain a secret. So in fact your superior is following what he is directed by Rome to do so in turn he tells you that you are not to say anything about this to the civil authorities. So using the tool of mental reservation when the police do come and ask about complaints made against the brother you can mislead them and not be lying therefore you have not been ask to do something that is sinful and maintain your blind obedience at the same time the brother is still abusing children. But you have avoided excommunication.
The same applies to our bishops. I can’t choose to ignore them or doubt them. That’s not an option. I can only report what I believe to be wrong. From there, I have to do what I’m told. To steer from that is to steer away from the apostles, which is to steer away from what Christ revealed. Christ spoke to them and through them. Let’s face it, without them, there would be no Church. Even the bible had to be approved by them. As important as the Church makes the laity, clergy and religious to be, the theological truth is that the bishop is the most important figure. You can have a Church without clergy, religious and laity. But you cannot have the Mystical Body without the bishop. It is the body of Christ, built upon the Apostles.
Often, many of us, religious, clergy and laity, think that we are so important to the Church and the bishops, that we forget this little but essential detail about revelation and salvation. It was revealed to the Apostles and handed down through them, no one else. No religious, deaacon, priest or layman can transmit salvation. Only a bishop can do that. Only a bishop can speak authoritatively on the faith, only a bishop has the authority and the power to sanctify through all of the sacraments, and only a bishop has the authority to govern.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
Just to deal with this in a block. There is no argument about the importance of Bishops. However there is something to be said about a blind obedience to Bishops. The laity are not called to be blindly obedient to the Bishops, nor is the mystical body of Christ dependent solely on the Bishops I would refer you back to MYSTICI CORPORIS CHRISTI no 17

And as for down playing the importance of the laity and others I quote from the CCC.
872 "In virtue of their rebirth in Christ there exists among all the Christian faithful a true equality with regard to dignity and the activity whereby all cooperate in the building up of the Body of Christ in accord with each one’s own condition and function."386
873 The very differences which the Lord has willed to put between the members of his body serve its unity and mission. For "in the Church there is diversity of ministry but unity of mission. To the apostles and their successors Christ has entrusted the office of teaching, sanctifying and governing in his name and by his power. But the laity are made to share in the priestly, prophetical, and kingly office of Christ; they have therefore, in the Church and in the world, their own assignment in the mission of the whole People of God."387 Finally, "from both groups [hierarchy and laity] there exist Christian faithful who are consecrated to God in their own special manner and serve the salvific mission of the Church through the profession of the evangelical counsels."388

I would also remind you that originally a Bishop was chosen from the community of believers one that comes to mind is St Ambrose who was organizing a meeting to choose the next Bishop and himself was elected by popular degree. I am not saying that it is practical to go back to that way but just to show that it wasn’t always the way it is now. So change is possible. And again I will say it Bishops need to be accountable.
 
I like the word “tatters.” It so graphically describes the state of affairs when our moral leaders commit the most inexpressible harm by hiding heinous sins and leaving the most vulnerable unprotected. It also brings a vivid picture to mind of the soul of the child who has been sexually abused – those innocents whose lives have been radically changed forever by the ones they thought they could trust. Really - think about it and then wonder if the reports have any merit that those who hid the sins were instructed by their superiors to do so. It is really beyond imaginable.

“There is no good in saying other than the truth,” said Fr Michael Canny, according to the Irish Times. “The Church at this state has no credibility, no standing and no moral authority.” I agree!

I think the anger is indisputably justified and a very necessary part of the recovery process. Do not deny it to those who feel it the most poignantly, and please, do not yet utter words about forgiveness or speak about obedience to those who are, at this point, tormented in their souls.

Perhaps in time, with God’s bounteous grace……but not now!
 
Sorry Brother this is not meant as an attack but I feel I do have to respond.

Following your example and I am glad it is an example. So you say you report that one of your religious brothers is abusing kids. Your Superior does I about it in fact covers it up so you are saying you would go to the Pope and report it.
I don’t know how many parishes and religoius orders have joined VIRTUS, but it is the easiest sytem of raining in protecting our children and reporting. If you follow theri system you can reduce the possibilityof absue. No one can eliminate it. You can identify potential abusers and victims. My community uses VIRTUS.

virtusonline.org/virtus/ Check it out, if you want. It’s not perfect, but it’s better than what we had.
Well and good but what happens when you find out that Rome has sent an instruction that all abuse complaints are to be reported to Rome only and not to anyone else and also that this instruction is to remain a secret.
Frankly, I have been a superior and have never been in such a situation, nor have I heard of anyone in such a situation. The most I have ever been told is to inform the superior first and then the authorities. When you suspect that a crime has been committed, superiors may not direct you do hide the facts. Now, let’s clarify. There is a difference between a real crime and soemthing that the state has namd a crime for it own policical reasons. Child abuse is a real crime. The most a superior can demand is the courtessy to be told first. That’s his right. Afterall, he is the only legitimate father of the accused.
 
Continuation:
So in fact your superior is following what he is directed by Rome to do so in turn he tells you that you are not to say anything about this to the civil authorities. So using the tool of mental reservation when the police do come and ask about complaints made against the brother you can mislead them and not be lying therefore you have not been ask to do something that is sinful and maintain your blind obedience at the same time the brother is still abusing children. But you have avoided excommunication.
First, the principle of mental reservation has nnot traditionally been used to protect those who habe abused children. It was mostly used in Europe and other oppressive societies to protect teh innocent from dangerous governments. The Principle operates on a very simple directive. You must always choose to do the higher good., when there are two good to choose from. One good would be to turn in a suspect who may then be treated unjustly and even charged and sentenced without proper hearing or trial. We know this happens in many societies. But taking him off the streat remains a good. The other good is to avoid communication with anyone who may ask you his whereabouts so that you need not lie. This may be the higher good if the person is not going to be treated with justice. The deciding factor is justice. If the arrested is going to be treated with justice, then there is rarely a need to apply this principle.

To ensure that the highest good promised by justice is achieved, we must get behind teh media and demand that they cover the outcome. Not everyone who is accused is guilty. But all the accused are paraided across our screens and newspapers. How many have been exonerated? Justice requires that you do not ruin the life of a person by letting society believe that they are guillty of some falsehood or a lesser crime.

quote]
Just to deal with this in a block. There is no argument about the importance of Bishops. However there is something to be said about a blind obedience to Bishops. The laity are not called to be blindly obedient to the Bishops, nor is the mystical body of Christ dependent solely on the Bishops I would refer you back to MYSTICI CORPORIS CHRISTI no 17

And as for down playing the importance of the laity and others I quote from the CCC.
872 "In virtue of their rebirth in Christ there exists among all the Christian faithful a true equality with regard to dignity and the activity whereby all cooperate in the building up of the Body of Christ in accord with each one’s own condition and function."386
873 The very differences which the Lord has willed to put between the members of his body serve its unity and mission. For "in the Church there is diversity of ministry but unity of mission. To the apostles and their successors Christ has entrusted the office of teaching, sanctifying and governing in his name and by his power. But the laity are made to share in the priestly, prophetical, and kingly office of Christ; they have therefore, in the Church and in the world, their own assignment in the mission of the whole People of God."387 Finally, "from both groups [hierarchy and laity] there exist Christian faithful who are consecrated to God in their own special manner and serve the salvific mission of the Church through the profession of the evangelical counsels."388

The purpose of this statement was to animate the laity to become co-operators in the mission of the Church, not to take over from the bishops or to suggest that the bishops are accountable to the laity. Church alw is sitll clear that the laity are bound by obedience to the bishops, not only in matters of faith and morals. The bishop is still the head of the local Curch. Thje difference between you and me is that I’m bound, not to a bishop, but to my superior who speaks for my founder and my brothers. In our community we promise asolute obedience to Fancis and to our brothers. The superior is the person responsible for making keeping the lines of communication open between Francis, the brothers and the individual I am only bound to obey the bishopi matters that relate to the laity, because the laity comes under his jurisdictionl If I work for or with the laity, I must follow the bishop’s guidelines, unless they are in conflict with those of the fonder or the brohers. In that case, I must go to my sperior and report it. It is the role of the superior to solve the conflictr of interest, which is usually easy to solve.
I would also remind you that originally a Bishop was chosen from the community of believers one that comes to mind is St Ambrose who was organizing a meeting to choose the next Bishop and himself was elected by popular degree. I am not saying that it is practical to go back to that way but just to show that it wasn’t always the way it is now. So change is possible. And again I will say it Bishops need to be accountable.
Only diocesan bishops were chosen that way. But the had to coose men were either bishoops or approved to be ordained bishops by Rome, who had consented and if they were religious, they had received permission from their superiors to accept the nomination. Today they aer still cosen from the community of believers. Only tose bishops who belogn tothe same province may be consulted on the chice of a bishp. That information is gathered by the Nuncio and sent to Rome who approves the choice of the local bishops. These local bishops, as I said before, come from the province. and erpresent the provice. Therefore, they are chosen locally. The campaign is no longer present, than God, because it looked just like a convention for bishops. A sacrament had been taken into the political arena and was being used to yield power.
 
conclusion

Yet, somehow, in his mystery and perfect charity, God allowed us to find anther way and trying t keep the system better. That’s how we regressed to toe orignal system in the Acts, whereeby the Apostles looked for candidates and ordained them. Is change possible? Of course. In that dierction,? I doubt it. The Church is too large. It’ll become a copetion by two candidaes. God spae us from that.

Fraernally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Our former pastor, several years ago, told us that he was spat upon while walking through an airport to board a plane. This good and holy priest had tears in his eyes while relating his story, not for himself, but for the display of hatred and unforgiveness that was unjustly leashed upon them all.
And I feel sorry for the victims who the Church branded as liars and extortionists, while keeping the evidence of their victimhood secret. Sometimes even suing them.

Many had death threats, their homes vandalised, for “impugning the good name of Father X” or “doing Satan’s work in attacking the Church”.

And… I feel sorry for your former pastor too. He is just as innocent, and has spent his life trying to do good.

Forgiveness requires as a precondition true repentance. While the Church continues to stonewall, obfuscate and delay, I see little sign of it. And while your pastor wears the garb of such an organisation… I hope the spittle was meant not for him, but of an unrepentant organisation that continues to aid and abet the rape of children.

Once the Church has “come clean”, then I will be able to forgive. Not that it’s my place to do so. I see hopeful signs, but progress is slow, and the crimes continue.
 
It’s interesting to note that the thread forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=402499
on the Doctrine of Mental Reservation was posted on “Moral Theology” before the avalanche of other threads on the Irish situation.

And was promptly moved to “secular news”, buried right next to “Pictured: Squirrel mother goes nuts and attacks dog trying to eat her baby” and “University bans NERF guns against ZOMBIES”

A moderator’s task is not an easy one. But to pretend that the issue was primarily secular news, rather than a genuine question about the morality of the practice that affected the Church… seems eccentric. No matter, the feline has escaped containment.

It’s ironic - I now have real hope that the Church can reform itself now. Because of the priests and bishops saying candidly how bad things are. It’s the ones who continue to cover-up, minimise, and obfuscate that may deal a fatal wound to the structures of the Irish Church as we know it.
 
Really - think about it and then wonder if the reports have any merit that those who hid the sins were instructed by their superiors to do so. It is really beyond imaginable.

“There is no good in saying other than the truth,” said Fr Michael Canny, according to the Irish Times. “The Church at this state has no credibility, no standing and no moral authority.” I agree!

I think the anger is indisputably justified and a very necessary part of the recovery process. Do not deny it to those who feel it the most poignantly, and please, do not yet utter words about forgiveness or speak about obedience to those who are, at this point, tormented in their souls.

Perhaps in time, with God’s bounteous grace……but not now!
Well Said.
 
The Church is the moral guidance for all because it is the Bride of Christ and is authorized to do so. If one is more interested in friends at Church than in what the Church stands for, then you have the same problem as those who protected criminals because of who the criminals were instead of the truth of what was done, which requires reparation and atoning justice.

The moral ground is intact in the Church as that which was done is not what the Church teaches. This problem was not institutional but personal. Whoever moved priests around did it in opposition to any correct understanding of justice, reparation, or atonement. One represents the Church only in accurately performing in union with Christ and His Church, thus an act contrary to this in any situation, such as liturgy, prayer, theology, and regulating secular affairs of those associated with the Church, must be in line with truth, Truth is not an idea, Truth is a Person, Jesus. All things… individuals, government, communities, words, actions, etc, will be judged according to their union with Jesus, and the Church, not always those who work in it, has always pointed to this and continues to do so in spite of what events occur .
It seems to me the problem is that many men were ordained who ought not to have been, that discipline down because the leaders failed to step up. The leaders failed to step up because they were men who have not to have been bishop, or who for one reason or another were careless/fearful of doing their duty. The same as been true all during the history of the Church. Occasionally great men are sent by God to keep the ship from going on the rocks, but she is always taking on water.
 
And I feel sorry for the victims who the Church branded as liars and extortionists, while keeping the evidence of their victimhood secret. Sometimes even suing them.

Many had death threats, their homes vandalised, for “impugning the good name of Father X” or “doing Satan’s work in attacking the Church”.

And… I feel sorry for your former pastor too. He is just as innocent, and has spent his life trying to do good.

Forgiveness requires as a precondition true repentance. While the Church continues to stonewall, obfuscate and delay, I see little sign of it. And while your pastor wears the garb of such an organisation… I hope the spittle was meant not for him, but of an unrepentant organisation that continues to aid and abet the rape of children.

Once the Church has “come clean”, then I will be able to forgive. Not that it’s my place to do so. I see hopeful signs, but progress is slow, and the crimes continue.
The Church has done more to “come clean” than any other organization you know of. If, for instance, you know more about your local public school, you would not judge the Church so harshly. Sodomy /pederasty are nothing unusual, and the schools have traditionally handle malefactors by sending them on their way and even letting them get school jobs elsewhere just to avoid trouble. The difference is, of course, that leaders of the Church must be held to a far higher standard than public officials. It is a bit like the sad episode of Tiger Wood. he seemed to be a straight-arrow, but now seems to be a bit of a low-life, like so many other professional players. The higher the pedestal, the further r the fall.
 
Yes, and perhaps face up to the harsh realities of our past, too.

As someone who is both proud to be Irish and thankful to be Catholic, I am naturally reluctant to raise an issue here that reflects badly on my nation or my religion. That said, I cannot ignore this ‘elephant in the room’ any longer. It has haunted me through the many sleepless nights I’ve had since the publication of the Murphy report.

In the aftermath of the Ryan report’s publication in May, Irish journalist Patsy McGarry raised the same issue I want to raise here now. I’m going to let what he wrote explain:
In Mendham, New Jersey…they erected the first monument in the world to victims of clerical child sex abuse.
It is a 180kg basalt stone, in the shape of a millstone, with a chain running through it. An inscription attached reads, in those unequivocal words of Jesus from Matthew’s gospel, concerning those who would harm the young: “It would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea”.
The monument was inspired by a suicide, in October 12th, 2003, of 37-year-old James Kelly, who had been sexually abused as a child by a priest in Mendham. His abuser was Fr James Hanley, who had served at St Joseph’s parish in Mendham.
It is not surprising that the first monument to clerical child sex abuse victims worldwide should have been made necessary by the crimes of a priest with an Irish name.
Irish names are prominent wherever in the English-speaking world clerical child sex abuse has been spoken of. Even allowing for the uniquely high number of Irish men among Catholic priests and religious worldwide, this phenomenon is striking.
Nowhere else in the Roman Catholic world has another nationality been as dominant among clerical child sex abusers. What was so different about Irish Catholicism that it gave rise to this?
In spring 2002, I was commissioned by the editor of an English publication to write about clerical child sex abuse from an Irish perspective. I pondered whether it was an Irish disease.
On receipt of the article the editor said he couldn’t print it. His publication had spent decades trying to escape an anti-Irish perception and were he to carry the article it would undo all their success in finally escaping that, he said. The article was published in The Irish Times on May 4th, 2002.
It noted all those Irish names among clerical child sex abusers. In Australia, they included Butler, Claffey, Cleary, Coffey, Connolly, Cox, Farrell, Fitzmaurice, Flynn, Gannon, Jordan, Keating, McGrath, McNamara, Murphy, Nestor, O’Brien, O’Donnell, O’Regan, O’Rourke, Riley, Ryan, Shea, Sullivan, Sweeney, Taylor, Treacy.
In Canada: Brown, Corrigan, Hickey, Kelley, O’Connor, Kenney, Maher.
In the US: Geoghan, Birmingham, Brown, Brett, Conway, Dunn, Hanley, Hughes, Lenehan, McEnany, O’Connor, O’Grady, O’Shea, Riley, Ryan, Shanley.
In the UK: Dooley, Flahive, Jordan, Murphy, O’Brien.
And, of course, all those in Ireland itself.
So, I think the questions we might ask ourselves here in Ireland are: IS clerical child sex abuse more prevalent in Irish Catholicism? And, if so, why?

I’m not suggesting we engage in some kind of collective beating-ourselves-up exercise. But to move on, I believe we need first to explore honestly, and with as much courage as we can muster, how we got to where we are. I’d appreciate any thoughts and comments either by PM or here.
 
This book looks on point, although I haven’t read it:
amazon.com/Irish-Tragedy-Priests-Cripple-Catholic/dp/0979027985/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1260146100&sr=8-1-spell

I’ll never forget the homily in which the Irish priest at my parish (also founded by Irish) told the disturbing story of his own physical abuse at the hands of a sadistic priest at school. He said he still feels pain in his leg from the beatings he suffered from this priest. From what I gathered our priest never has completely forgiven this priest for what he did to him.

Just a few hours ago I read that the Catholic Church covered up the murder of a young girl by a priest in Sligo back in the early 1980s. When will this ever end? I honestly have to say that nothing shocks me anymore. I guess the Church in Ireland (and in the U.S.) had the goal of protecting its priests at any cost, regardless of what that meant to children, the morale of decent priests, or eventually the reputation of the Church.
 
Sorry Brother this is not meant as an attack but I feel I do have to respond.

Following your example and I am glad it is an example. So you say you report that one of your religious brothers is abusing kids. Your Superior does nothing about it in fact covers it up so you are saying you would go to the Pope and report it. Well and good but what happens when you find out that Rome has sent an instruction that all abuse complaints are to be reported to Rome only and not to anyone else and also that this instruction is to remain a secret. So in fact your superior is following what he is directed by Rome to do so in turn he tells you that you are not to say anything about this to the civil authorities. So using the tool of mental reservation when the police do come and ask about complaints made against the brother you can mislead them and not be lying therefore you have not been ask to do something that is sinful and maintain your blind obedience at the same time the brother is still abusing children. But you have avoided excommunication.

Just to deal with this in a block. There is no argument about the importance of Bishops. However there is something to be said about a blind obedience to Bishops. The laity are not called to be blindly obedient to the Bishops, nor is the mystical body of Christ dependent solely on the Bishops I would refer you back to MYSTICI CORPORIS CHRISTI no 17

And as for down playing the importance of the laity and others I quote from the CCC.
872 "In virtue of their rebirth in Christ there exists among all the Christian faithful a true equality with regard to dignity and the activity whereby all cooperate in the building up of the Body of Christ in accord with each one’s own condition and function."386
873 The very differences which the Lord has willed to put between the members of his body serve its unity and mission. For "in the Church there is diversity of ministry but unity of mission. To the apostles and their successors Christ has entrusted the office of teaching, sanctifying and governing in his name and by his power. But the laity are made to share in the priestly, prophetical, and kingly office of Christ; they have therefore, in the Church and in the world, their own assignment in the mission of the whole People of God."387 Finally, "from both groups [hierarchy and laity] there exist Christian faithful who are consecrated to God in their own special manner and serve the salvific mission of the Church through the profession of the evangelical counsels."388

I would also remind you that originally a Bishop was chosen from the community of believers one that comes to mind is St Ambrose who was organizing a meeting to choose the next Bishop and himself was elected by popular degree. I am not saying that it is practical to go back to that way but just to show that it wasn’t always the way it is now. So change is possible. And again I will say it Bishops need to be accountable.
Being an American layman, I defer to those in authority, but only so far, even to bishops, on public matters. Being German in background, I feel no special affection for Irish priests/bishops; indeed, I have always felt there are too many of them. Their power in the American Church came from their national fealty to the papacy and the “blessing” of having been conquered by the English, who then conferred their language on the Irish. IMHO, it is the duty of the Irish laity to get together and tell the bishops to get their act together, or what happened to the New England Church will happen to the Irish Church, and they will have to account to God for this.
 
It is true that the bishops have to do the work of reparation, in Ireland and elsewhere. At the same time, I would like to point out what has happened in New England. It would be unfair to say that the Church in New England has rolled over and died. The fact it that the Church in New England is recovering. Their regional seminary is full. They have five new religious communities, all of them Franciscan men. They have a thriving ministry to immigrants. Their bishops have dealt with some tough issues and are coming down very hard on those who are not upholding the teachings of the Church, while at the same time they are showing great mercy toward the victims of abuse and toward sinners too.

When the local Church begins to strike a balance things get better. You can’t turn back the clock and undo what has been done, but you can look forward and ask yourself what is there that needs to be addressed and how. This is the key. You can’t let the pain and the sin knock you down and stay down. Christ was knocked down on the cross, but he did remain dead. He arose from the dead.

If we are to be truly Catholic and truly evangelical, we too must look ahead at what needs to be done and figure out how to do it, then get on about the business of doing it. To spend time and energy moaning over what we should have done and did not do, is a futile exercise. The call to holiness is a call to repent and to grow. All too often we call people to repent, but never to grow. We have to balance the challenges that we place before each other. True holiness is found in contrition and hope.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Being an American layman, I defer to those in authority, but only so far, even to bishops, on public matters. Being German in background, I feel no special affection for Irish priests/bishops; indeed, I have always felt there are too many of them. Their power in the American Church came from their national fealty to the papacy and the “blessing” of having been conquered by the English, who then conferred their language on the Irish.
.

I take your point. On the other hand (and leaving aside for a moment the clerical abuse scandal) I wonder what the Catholic Church in the US might look like today if, say, German or French bishops, priests and religious had shaped it.
 
I attend daily Mass several times a week with good Catholics. I think we all know and appreciate the difference between the clergy and the Church. People are fallible, period. Even under the leadership of some of those shameful renaissance popes, the Church survived and it will continue in spite of the worst some of the clergy are capable of.
 
.

I take your point. On the other hand (and leaving aside for a moment the clerical abuse scandal) I wonder what the Catholic Church in the US might look like today if, say, German or French bishops, priests and religious had shaped it.
I don’t know about the French…hardly any came to Illinois where I live. I am a little more familiar with the experience of the Polish. The Polish seem to place a lot of emphasis on the rights of parishes. I don’t think there was ever any love lost between the Polish and Irish-dominated U.S. hierarchy, especially in the old days. Disputes over control of parish finances and property exploded into riots in Pennsylvania in the late 1890s and gave birth to the Polish National Catholic Church. It’s hard not to draw comparisons between the domineering behavior of the hierarchy in Ireland and that in the U.S. Considering that the bishops over here tend to treat parish churches as their own property (which it is legally, unfortunately) to be disposed of at will, I wish the Polish had had a greater impact on the development of the Church in the U.S. I’ve heard of several instances where U.S. dioceses have turned away Polish priests and then closed churches because of the shortage of clergy.
 
I don’t know about the French…hardly any came to Illinois where I live. I am a little more familiar with the experience of the Polish. The Polish seem to place a lot of emphasis on the rights of parishes. I don’t think there was ever any love lost between the Polish and Irish-dominated U.S. hierarchy, especially in the old days. Disputes over control of parish finances and property exploded into riots in Pennsylvania in the late 1890s and gave birth to the Polish National Catholic Church. It’s hard not to draw comparisons between the domineering behavior of the hierarchy in Ireland and that in the U.S. Considering that the bishops over here tend to treat parish churches as their own property (which it is legally, unfortunately) to be disposed of at will, I wish the Polish had had a greater impact on the development of the Church in the U.S. I’ve heard of several instances where U.S. dioceses have turned away Polish priests and then closed churches because of the shortage of clergy.
I know nothing about turning down the help of Polish priests. But I can chime in here about property rights. The universal law of the Church is very simple. The Church does not recognize the civil laws that govern property ownership in any country. She complies with civil laws to keep the peace with the state. However, as far as Church law is concerned, there are only two legal owners of property.
  1. The diocesan bishop is the sole owner of all property that belongs to the diocese. He can dispose of it in any way that he sees fit. In many countries, such as the USA, this sole ownership is recognized by many states.
  2. A religious community is the sole owner of any property that was purchased by them with their funds or bequeethed to the community. Niether the bishop nor the laity have any claims to said property or jurisdiction on said property.
The Vatican does own some properties in different parts of the world, including the USA, such as the Vatican observatory in the USA and the two pontifical universities in the USA. But these are usually administered by a local organization incoroporated locally with a bishop appointed as chancellor.

The separation of property from the laity was done to protect the priests and religious from being controlled by the laity as is the case in the Reformation Communities where the laity appoints pastors, hires and fires bishops and even appointed abbots in the past. By taking away the financial power of the laity, the Church’s freedom was protected. This was a direct result of what happened in England and France with the Church and the state.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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