Responding to a friend who is racist, snobbish, and distorts Catholicism

[Mrchatsworth]

Sounds like you need a new friend. Why would you invest in this friendship. But for the record, there are plenty of people I wouldn’t marry. That one I understand. I wouldn’t marry someone not Catholic or that I wasn’t attracted to.

 

[Annie]

At first I thought your friend mist be a very old immigrant from Hungary, not raised here in the US! So now I am wondering if she is very young. If she is young, she may have gotten these attitudes from her parents and they will wear off.

 

[Cruciferi]

Actually there are probably quite a lot of people who have similar views…but to have them all wrapped up in one person…wow…

My family attended a Hungarian Parish for years. Although I never discussed these viewpoints or polled anyone, I’m pretty sure that a large portion of the older congregants held these prejudices. They basically ran the one Pastor out because he suggested inviting Hispanic Catholics to the Parish. The next Pastor, probably just to survive, spent the next decade stroking their egos.

Overall, it was an awful Parish and a sickening experience. Thank God the Bishop closed it!

 

[Allegra]

You have a different perspective because you aren’t a racist. I don’t think I would have been able to tolerate any of this.

 

[Allegra]

That’s what I was wondering. Or maybe he heard black people using the word and though that using it would make him “fit in”?

 

[Agnus-Dei]

A thought: If she was born and raised in America, she’s an American. It might be a shock for her highness to accept. (Shoot. I don’t run around as, “An Irish decended American with just a dash of chocolate tossed in for fun.”)
Dominus vobiscum

 

[StudentMI]

I can understand why you’re friends with her. I have friends who have their own bigotries whether it’s toward Palestinians and Arabs, gays, Mexicans, etc. They don’t tend to be so vociferous about it, though.

 

[27lw]

She sounds like some certain older family members of mine, to be honest. I also had a Hungarian roommate who probably believed some of these same things. I think it is a way of preserving a nationality that is under attack to elevate it that way. It can be embarrassing and difficult to be around this kind of arrogance, but I think the poster above said it well to equate it to a kind of poor self-esteem. Or this person was raised this way and bought it lock, stock and barrel.
Good for you if you can overlook it and perhaps be a good example.

 

[MNathaniel]

But, yeah, I guess you are right. If I stay friends with her, I guess there must be enough reasons that I put up with this behavior. But it’s hard when someone is always making these digs, trying to imply that I’m stupid and uneducated, that my parents are stupid and uneducated, that they don’t have good jobs. And also making digs about our social circle, whispering that someone comes from new money or that she knows what Irish Americans are like, how they came here as laborers, but now they’re doctors and lawyers, they have big houses in the suburbs, and they can afford to send their kids to the sort of school she went to.

Honestly… I think you really need to make sure you have emotional ‘space’ from the impact this person may have on you.

Hopefully her views really are primarily from ignorance/airheadedness, and certainly I think there’s a place for charity in continuing to love someone as they gradually grow out of these things.

At the same time… How old is this woman? What are her parents like? I’m honestly astounded that she wasn’t taught better as a child, which is why my thoughts go to whether her parents have sort of programmed this snobbishness and fixation on political/racial/class ‘groups’ into her as a default.

E.g. Even her casual, everyday snobbishness, like that thing about “But you must have read Z”, is just so… so snobbish and immature. When I was a kid, and I mean, little kid, my mom drilled it into me that good manners are not so much about ‘proper’ etiquette (in some kind of tick-boxing, stuffy, ‘upper class’ sense, like knowing what fork to use). Good manners are about helping others feel comfortable, respected, loved. Like using the wrong fork on purpose to prevent someone else feeling bad that they did, too.

This woman seems to have obviously been taught differently, or to have defied her upbringing and thereby be even more accountable for her ugly and embarrassing conduct with others.

I’m not going to suggest you cut this woman entirely out of your life: she may benefit from your charitable presence and good example. But I am going to suggest that you get a clear head about this: you can love someone (in terms of willing her good) without allowing yourself to be gaslit that her speech or behaviour is ‘okay’. And if you need to take distance from her more often or for longer stretches, I’d enthusiastically endorse that. Please, seek out healthy friendships with people who are kind and encouraging of you, and respect you. Let those people be your primary social circle. This woman who seems to be drowning in her own self-importance… don’t push her under the water, and don’t necessarily take your life raft away from her. But don’t jump in the water yourself and let her push you under as she tries to clamber to always be on top of you. Stay in your life raft with the other people who love you well through their actions, and let this woman climb in when she’s ready (if she’s ever ready).

 

[MNathaniel]

Oh, also, maybe pray and fast for her. This woman needs God’s help. While yes, I actually think it may be fruitful for you to (carefully! and kindly, so she’s more likely to hear it, and not reject it from pure embarrassment at being called out) tell her truthfully that you’re concerned about her problem behaviour, and that it’s impacting the ways you think it may be healthy for you two to interact… This woman needs God working on her heart. Ask Him to. And don’t tie yourself to the result. She may have a looooong journey of working with Him ahead of her, and you can’t make her progress for her.

 

[Sarcelle]

If you have friends like her, you don’t need enemies.

She seems to be more of a xenophobe rather than a racist.

She may also have mental issues.

I have met lots of Hungarians and lucky for me none are racist.

I have met a Japanese who had the same attitude as your friend. He looked down on Chinese, Koreans, Southeast Asians, was neutral towards white people, and was scared of black people.

He also admired the Nazis.

 

[otjm]

Am I being unreasonable in finding my friend’s views objectionable? I feel that I ought to tell her that I think she is wrong. However, I think she is so sure in her beliefs that she would never change her mind and I would just lose a friend.

I am not sure what it will take for her to open he mind and learn to both forgive others and accept others. I suspect that you will not be successful.

She seems to be excessively opinionated; somewhat of the mindset of “Don’t confuse me with the facts; I already have my mind made up.”

I am not sure I would call her opinions “racist” as they seem to be more leaning towards tribalism, but don’t want to quibble.

One thing to consider, and that is the difference between the word “friend” and “acquaintance”. We all tend to use language loosely, but this is an area I find a lot of people using the words interchangeably. It is my observation that people make acquaintances and become friendly, and then presume because the other person is friendly, that they are therefore a friend.

I suspect that if you wish to continue a friendly acquaintance, you will not address the skew of her opinions; and if you address it, she will not be friendly; but you would not have lost a friend in doing so. Just an acquaintance.

 

[do_justly_love_mercy]

When someone is deeply entrenched in their delusions, merely arguing with them is unlikely to help them escape from that hole.

Thank you for your very helpful reply. First, I think you are right. These beliefs really are a kind of delusion. Not like a psychosis, but it’s a way of viewing the world that really does not have too much to do with reality. E.g. the idea that people in 21st-century America are still “noble” because of the status their ancestors held in Europe (and in the case of Hungary, the concept of nobility has been legally abolished anyway).

Yes, I do think that knowing somebody like this can be good, as it does mean I have to work on being patient and tolerant. And it means having to find the best in somebody, not focusing on the worst.

As kind of a side note, I have to wonder if it could have something to do with low self-esteem. Someone who does not have a high opinion of themselves can easily seek to identify with a larger group

Yes, I think that’s an excellent point. There may be some truth in it. My friend is always talking about how proud she is to be Hungarian, how proud she is to be noble, how proud she is to have attended X, Y, and Z prestigious schools and colleges, how proud she is of the achievements of various family members or even just the achievements of people who also happened to attend X, Y, or Z.

Personally, I don’t really have any interest in what members of my family did much before my grandparents’ generation. I’m certainly not interested in knowing what they did in the Middle Ages. I don’t think what my ancestors did is a reflection on what sort of person I am. I don’t see why I should take pride in the achievements of people to whom I may be very distantly related. Equally, I don’t see why I should bear grudges over disputes that have nothing to do with me personally.

But I suppose if somebody doesn’t have a very strong sense of their own identity, it would make sense that they would create an identity based on associations. Curiously, this is also a feature of narcissism: narcissists often like to associate themselves with people or institutions that have high status.

 

[do_justly_love_mercy]

A “What you see is what you get” sort of individual

Yes, that is true, and it’s a lot easier to deal with than somebody who has the self awareness to hide their various prejudices. At least you know where you stand.

since they obviously are basically good as your friend

Exactly. And that’s why I struggle with this. If this were somebody I just out-and-out disliked, I’d just cut off contact. The thing is, I like her, I just find it hard when she’s indulging these strange attitudes.

But for the record, there are plenty of people I wouldn’t marry. That one I understand. I wouldn’t marry someone not Catholic or that I wasn’t attracted to.

Yes, and there’s nothing wrong with that. I could accept saying, “I wouldn’t marry a Jewish man or, for that matter, anybody who was not a practicing Catholic or at least a practicing Christian of any denomination.” Or, “Frankly, I have never met a black guy to whom I have felt any kind of attraction.” What I don’t really understand is a young woman (early 30s) in 21st-century America saying that she would not be able to date or marry a Jew or a black man because her family would not approve and seemingly not thinking that her family could be wrong about this. I honestly thought that the days when a family could forbid interracial dating/marriage and not be criticized for it belonged in the past. My parents married well over 30 years ago and both their families were absolutely okay with it. For my grandparents on both sides, it was a non-issue.

At first I thought your friend mist be a very old immigrant from Hungary, not raised here in the US! So now I am wondering if she is very young.

She is a few years older than me, so… early 30s. Young enough for the Second World War (and the First World War!) to be fairly distant, but old enough to be able to think for herself.

If she was born and raised in America, she’s an American.

True. But I don’t think she really thinks of herself as American. Her attitudes are very un-American. To my mind, there is nothing more antithetical to American values than the notion of a hereditary noble class.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Agnus-Dei:

If she was born and raised in America, she’s an American.

True. But I don’t think she really thinks of herself as American. Her attitudes are very un-American. To my mind, there is nothing more antithetical to American values than the notion of a hereditary noble class.

As I said… she needs to find some little town, village, hamlet, whatever, where people are really “old-school Hungarian” — Budapest would probably be far too diverse and cosmopolitan — buy herself a one-way ticket, and stay there. I know of at least two people who are much like this. My advice to either one of them would be “just go home… just go home…”. (Yes, I know, as you point out, she was born in the US, but obviously, her heart’s not here.)

 

[Buks]

Not to over analyze someone I don’t know, but maybe your friend will grow as she goes about life, rubbing shoulders (or is the saying, “bumping elbows”?) with the world. I can think of a friend or two who are not the exact same person they were in their early thirties. Who was it that said something like, travel will end prejudice?

 

[Mrchatsworth]

I suppose it depends how cultural the family is. There are families with a very strong emphasis on culture. While we recoil at American ideals that no one has a distinct culture, other cultures don’t necessarily play by those rules. Many Asian families or Indian families date and marry strictly on culture, religion, or race in their own countries. Even to the extent of arranged marriages. And they are not evil or somehow less enlightened than the progressives in the west. A racist is someone who harbors hate of someone because of a race. We must be careful when speaking out against hatred and injustice that we don’t lump others into a evil category because of their preferences, family or culture. I wouldn’t want my daughters dating a person whose culture devalued women, I wouldn’t want my kids dating a Jew because of religious (not racial) differences. But guess what. They will choose to date and marry who they date and marry, regardless of my preferences. I can hope that I influence them correctly but I choose to accept what they do for the most part.

 

[do_justly_love_mercy]

I think it is a way of preserving a nationality that is under attack to elevate it that way.

I guess. But most people don’t do this. My fiancé is British. He does not go around bragging that Britain ruled an empire that was, by every measure, the greatest in the history of the world. Nor does he go around bearing grudges against all the countries that won their independence. Indeed, my experience of British people in general is that they are not constantly boasting about their country’s achievements, such as winning two world wars and the Napoleonic Wars, holding a permanent seat on the UN Security Council, being the first industrialized country in the world, enjoying a 3.3% share of the global economy despite accounting for only 0.87% of the world’s population, having three of the world’s top 10 universities (including two out of the top three), finishing second in the 2016 summer Olympics medal table, etc.

How old is this woman?

Early 30s - a few years older than me.

What are her parents like?

I don’t really know, to be honest. From my brief interactions with her, her mom seems to be very nice - courteous, self-effacing, an engaging conversationalist. Once, when my friend was being mean about somebody, her mom said, “It isn’t nice to be jealous of people”, which I thought was telling. I also know her mom is a very patriotic American, despite not having been born here. Again, my friend was being derogatory about Americans, and her mom reminded her that she was lucky to have been born a citizen of the United States. From our brief interactions, I cannot imagine that my friend’s mom is the source of her attitudes. In fact, her mom seemed to be pretty much a model of etiquette and she seems to have enthusiastically embraced the culture of her adopted country.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

A thought: If she was born and raised in America, she’s an American.

Not always. Legally, for sure. In her own mind and heart, that’s another story.

Like the old saying goes, “just because kittens are born in an oven don’t make 'em biscuits”.

 

[catholiclala]

@do_justly_love_mercy I would not consider this person a “good” friend. Though not exactly the same, I was friends with a white woman (I am a black woman) and she even had a black boyfriend and we got to be close so I never thought anything racially charged would come from her, although she could seem a bit judgmental and cliquey at times. Then one day she was drunk and said many nasty things about black people. I was shocked at first but then it all made sense. If she could talk they way she did about others why wouldn’t it turn to hurt me and my people? Sometimes these are the people that will be friends to your face and let you into their “acceptable” sphere because maybe you are “special” or “different” but are thinking badly of you and yours in secret until they have a moment of true colors showing. I also had a co-worker like this who always proclaimed he was tolerant but meanwhile talked about every race and homosexuals. I’m sure he said stuff about black people but wouldn’t say it to me unless he slipped. It’s mind boggling but way more common than you may think.