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Apache78
Guest
You don’t need that kind of negativity in your life. But if you want to remain friends with her then pray for her. She needs it.
Responding to a friend who is racist, snobbish, and distorts Catholicism
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do_justly_love_mercy
Guest
Yes, I assumed that too for a long time. It’s her attitude toward gypsies that makes me think she is genuinely racist. The point I was trying to make to her was that gypsies do not have to remain stuck in a cycle of poverty, crime, mental illness, poor standards of education, widespread sexual abuse of children, family dysfunction, and living on the margins of society.
My point was that until 1865, black people were actually enslaved in the United States. And yet, within a relatively short period of time, African Americans became highly educated, entered the professions, held public office, became wealthier, and began to become integrated into white society. Notwithstanding the struggles of the Jim Crow era, and even the past 50 years, the story of African Americans is overall one of progress.
My friend’s response to this was that gypsies would never be able to enjoy the kind of improved conditions experienced by African Americans, not through self-help and not through any kind of government program, because gypsies are simply an inferior kind of person compared with Africans.
Possibly, although I don’t really know what. A couple of people have suggested that they think she has a form of autism, but I’ve never heard of autism making people be racist/xenophobic or have archaic ideas about the aristocracy etc.
Well, yes. That’s a difficult distinction to make. I guess I know who my really good friends are, and I know who are just people I know, and then in the middle there are people who perhaps defy easy categorization.
Yes, I know a few people like that! Generally people I’m not really close to, and I just brush off their comments as diplomatically as possible. Like, somebody I know who’s basically a nice person but has really bigoted views through no more than ignorance. She’ll say something like, “I don’t mind the ones like Miguel, who come here to work and improve themselves. I only mind the rest of them who come here for the free money.” And I’ll say, “Yes, I really like Miguel.” I guess this particular friend of mine causes me more stress with her beliefs because she is intelligent and highly educated and has a very cosmopolitan lifestyle, so I suppose her attitudes surprise me.
In her imagination, I think Budapest would be ideal, because she likes the metropolitan lifestyle, but I suspect that if she actually lived there she would be surprised to find that actual 21st-century Hungarians are very different from the Hungarians of her imagination.
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do_justly_love_mercy
Guest
I can see where you are coming from, but I don’t think that’s the same place my friend is coming from. She’s not saying, “My parents wouldn’t want me to settle down with a Jamaican man because they worry about how women are treated in the Jamaican culture”, or, “My parents would be keen for me to marry a Catholic”, or even, “The Hungarian culture is very important to us, so my parents would be thrilled I my husband were to be Hungarian too.” She’s saying her family wouldn’t approve of her being involved with a black man (of any nationality, religion, etc.) or a Jew. In light of her comments about the Holocaust, I don’t think the family hostility toward Jews is purely to do with religious differences.
The more you say, the more I am inclined to think that she has built an “air castle” in her own imagination. For instance, when I went to France a few years ago, I went into a small grocery store and was surprised to see canned sweet corn and (I think it was) peas, French brands, but otherwise, just like what you would find here. I said to myself “what’s up with this? — I thought the French went to the open-air markets, got all of their vegetables fresh, and made these delicious, organic meals, unlike us American culinary barbarians who open up cans”. No, that is the romantic version. French “real life” is pretty much like “real life” here (except that they take more time to savor their meals!). The next time I was in France (all right, Saint-Martin, but that, too, is France, just like Hawaii is the United States), I went to the grocery, picked up something, read the label, and was able to decipher that the item contained… high fructose corn syrup. I put it back down in disgust. I try to stay away from that stuff.MNathaniel:
I don’t really know, to be honest. From my brief interactions with her, her mom seems to be very nice - courteous, self-effacing, an engaging conversationalist. Once, when my friend was being mean about somebody, her mom said, “It isn’t nice to be jealous of people”, which I thought was telling. I also know her mom is a very patriotic American, despite not having been born here. Again, my friend was being derogatory about Americans, and her mom reminded her that she was lucky to have been born a citizen of the United States. From our brief interactions, I cannot imagine that my friend’s mom is the source of her attitudes. In fact, her mom seemed to be pretty much a model of etiquette and she seems to have enthusiastically embraced the culture of her adopted country.
My point, it is very easy to romanticize a culture you love in the first place.
It could. Autism is an incredibly complicated phenomenon. As they say, when you meet one autistic person… you’ve met one autistic person.Sarcelle:
Possibly, although I don’t really know what. A couple of people have suggested that they think she has a form of autism, but I’ve never heard of autism making people be racist/xenophobic or have archaic ideas about the aristocracy etc.
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Mrchatsworth
Guest
I guess I just wonder why you are so entangled in her situation with her family and her biases and bigotries. Are you in a position to have a greater influence on her than her parents and culture? If not perhaps you should move gently out of her life.
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njlisa
Guest
Pray for her salvation. And shake the dust off your feet.
Her support for Miklos Horthy alone would be a friendship deal-breaker for me. Some 500,000 Hungarian Jews were murdered during the Holocaust. The stats on Hungarian Roma and Sinti people are hard to come by. In all Axis controlled areas, hundreds of thousands perished.
From Yad Vashem:
The Fascist elements in Hungary enjoyed broad popular support and Miklos Horthy’s dictatorial government concluded an alliance with Nazi Germany.
From U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum
Of approximately 825,000 Jews living in Hungary in 1941, about 63,000 died or were killed prior to the German occupation of March 1944. Under German occupation, just over 500,000 died from maltreatment or were murdered. Some 255,000 Jews, less than one-third of those who had lived within enlarged Hungary in March 1944, survived the Holocaust. About 190,000 of these were residents of Hungary in its 1920 borders.
Her support for Miklos Horthy alone would be a friendship deal-breaker for me. Some 500,000 Hungarian Jews were murdered during the Holocaust. The stats on Hungarian Roma and Sinti people are hard to come by. In all Axis controlled areas, hundreds of thousands perished.
From Yad Vashem:
The Fascist elements in Hungary enjoyed broad popular support and Miklos Horthy’s dictatorial government concluded an alliance with Nazi Germany.
From U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum
Of approximately 825,000 Jews living in Hungary in 1941, about 63,000 died or were killed prior to the German occupation of March 1944. Under German occupation, just over 500,000 died from maltreatment or were murdered. Some 255,000 Jews, less than one-third of those who had lived within enlarged Hungary in March 1944, survived the Holocaust. About 190,000 of these were residents of Hungary in its 1920 borders.
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MNathaniel
Guest
I’m sorry to hear about this hurtful situation. I also think your realization is solid: Anyone who talks a certain way about one group of people behind their backs, will probably talk the same way about any group of people behind their backs, unless it’s whatever very specific group of people they consider ‘their tribe’.
I don’t want to take anything away from what you said. At the same time, adding to it… I’m a white woman. And I feel sad (and helpless) when I hear speculation that white people secretly think or say stuff about black people (or any other group) behind their backs. Not that you said that, precisely (just that it’s “way more common” than the OP may think), and not because I disbelieve that it’s happening in some specific situations…
But I grew up in a small town in Canada, and I literally never heard racist sentiment in my young life, unless in the context of school history classes where we’d learn about historical racism and unanimously agree that it was bad and absurd.
The first time I ever heard an anti-[race] sentiment in person, was when I moved to a big city for university. At the first school social event, I immediately connected with a black girl and a couple Mexican guys; we just all seemed to click, temperament-wise, and it was a relief to quickly make friends in a strange place. We hung out all morning. Then at lunch… I don’t remember all the specifics, from so many years ago. But suddenly, and really casually, the black girl started making broad statements about ‘all white people’. I think she literally said: “I hate white people.” I just remember it seeming surreal because she was still acting casual and friendly with me as if I wasn’t one of these very “Whites” that she was railing against so enthusiastically. I vaguely recall her praising ‘Black Power’ stuff (like, telling me in positive terms about the literal ‘Black Panther Party’ of the USA, something I guess she was enthusiastic about at the time). I didn’t know how to respond; I think I just went quiet and she didn’t seem to notice.
I’m sorry for the long ramble. I just felt sad and decided to share, I guess. Because I’d naively thought racism was history and humanity understood ourselves to be one family now. But after this jolting experience with the first friend I made at university (and then gradual exposure to other ‘black’ voices in the big city that also expressed overt hostility towards ‘whites’ as a whole), something changed: I started to automatically wonder, when I saw a black person: “Does this person secretly hate me?”
And I’m just sad at this scenario where any of us, black or white or First Nations or Chinese, or whatever, are stuck wondering this. Don’t know solution, I guess. Just, sad.
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catholiclala
Guest
I’m sorry you experienced that. Many of all races hide their feelings. They may genuinely like the “friend” belonging to the race they hate because they for some twisted reason compartmentalize that person as different. But one day, sooner or later, true feelings surface. i had another incident where I was hanging out with a group of white friends and one guy just casually dropped the n-word describing an encounter. I was not particularly fond or close with this guy and never felt truly comfortable with him but it was just another example because he was cool enough with me to kick it with a beer and have laughs but something triggered how he really felt. It was really hurtful because nobody said anything to defend me so I was on my own to stand up for myself. He tried to apologize but it was one of those backhanded “you know what I mean about black people” kind of apologies that meant nothing.
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MNathaniel
Guest
Thank you for your kind comment about my experience.Ugh, that’s really awful. I’m sorry you experienced that, too. And yes, a sentence like: “you know what I mean about black people” – that’s only perpetuating the insult, not part of any proper apology.
I’m especially sorry nobody said anything to defend you, and left you on your own to deal with it. That’s a lonely feeling, and a feeling of one’s own low value in a group (at least extrapolating from my feeling in comparative situations).
I really pray that one day (before the next life) humanity globally really will have gotten over ‘race-based’ division, at least. I know the choice between good and evil runs through every heart, and people will always find something to scorn others about if they really want to… but skin colour just seems like such an arbitrary one it’s insane. At the same time as being so visible that people are particularly vulnerable when targeted for this reason.
And despite my experience (and unless there’s a new wave of violence in the future unlike what there’s been in the past), I don’t want to compare my experience 1:1 to that of people who are ‘black’. From what I’ve now learned in my adult life (and with some world travel), there really is prejudice out there against people with darker skin in all sorts of countries where I might not have expected it: Brazil, China, India. So I’ll definitely cede the floor to the fact that other people have it worse than me, and I should do more listening than speaking.
Just looking forward to that future where everyone can grow up like I did (oblivious to the possibility of contemporary racism) and not have to be corrected by reality on that front.
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catholiclala
Guest
Once more people become aware of and sympathize with those navigating caste system that exists globally, perhaps more will change. I think many believe there is no problem, or that it’s “just another cross” because we aren’t living like we did in the past but there are still many prejudices based solely only racial appearance. I’ve had the equivalent of being told that I’m pretty and speak well for a dark skinned black woman said to me so many times and the person doesn’t even get how awkward and wrong that sentiment is. And this is sometimes coming from other black people, that is how ingrained the bias is.
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MNathaniel
Guest
That’s just insane. I’m at a loss for words beyond “sorry” that you’ve ever been told that (much less repeatedly). It’s some kind of madness.
God forgive us. And please bring us out from under this sin and confusion of racism. Let your children be free from this one, at least. Help us to see each other as we are: your beloved children, made in your image: each of us. Help us to see each other with clear eyes, and love each other accordingly. Mother Mary: Pray for us.
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englands123
Guest
I am so glad Jesus never thought like that.
Wow I am amazed to think any catholic or Christian would think that way and for so many to give the thumbs up.
That goes totally against any of Christ teaching.
Wow I am amazed to think any catholic or Christian would think that way and for so many to give the thumbs up.
That goes totally against any of Christ teaching.
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englands123
Guest
Let’s be clear hear what Our Lord said on the Mount.
32 “If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount. 35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. 36 Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.
I am so shocked and disappointed. Imagine Jesus saying, tell your friend go take a jump somewhere else…
Just awful.
Love Your Enemies
27 “But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. 29 To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic ]either. 30 Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. 31 And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.32 “If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount. 35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. 36 Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.
I am so shocked and disappointed. Imagine Jesus saying, tell your friend go take a jump somewhere else…
Just awful.
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englands123
Guest
If Jesus was just friends with those he loved , what reward would he gain.
I’d also jettison someone like this pretty quickly. She sounds painful.
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Really and you know Jesus teachings. Terrible no wonder the worlds a mess and at war.
I’d also jettison someone like this pretty quickly. She sounds painful.
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Really and you know Jesus teachings. Terrible no wonder the worlds a mess and at war.
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englands123
Guest
Why are these views allowed on a Catholic forum. There is no love in these replies at all and I do not know any Priest who would agree with such .
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StudentMI
Guest
I’m friends with several of varying degrees. They’re still my friends, and if the topic comes up I try to correct them.
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englands123
Guest
If is what this forum teaches , then I want no part of it.
Jesus never taught that. He taught love and hug your enemy , not IGNORE them or worse JUDGE them…
Jesus never taught that. He taught love and hug your enemy , not IGNORE them or worse JUDGE them…
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englands123
Guest
STOP JUDGING PEOPLE please !!!
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StudentMI
Guest
So according to you I should just ditch my friends?
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