Responding to a friend who is racist, snobbish, and distorts Catholicism

[StudentMI]

Agreed.

89

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

I think if you ditch friends with prejudices you’ll find you have no friends left.

I think it’s a question of degree. Are you talking about someone who maybe has some stereotypes in his head and occasionally tells a Polock joke? Or are we talking about someone who is like “the Holocaust was awesome?”

 

[StudentMI]

I think it’s a question of degree. Are you talking about someone who maybe has some stereotypes in his head and occasionally tells a Polock joke? Or are we talking about someone who is like “the Holocaust was awesome?”

I’m talking about a Jew who dislikes Palestinians, or an older gentleman who uses the n word or says ‘colored folk’ without realizing it’s wrong because he grew up in another time.

As in, “did you see all the rioting because that n-word was killed by the police? Well I don’t blame all the colored folk for rioting.” From a real conversation I had with him.

 

[do_justly_love_mercy]

I guess I just wonder why you are so entangled in her situation with her family and her biases and bigotries. Are you in a position to have a greater influence on her than her parents and culture?

Well, for all my annoyances, she’s a good friend of mine. But no, I probably won’t ever change her mind.

I just get very annoyed when she is really mean about people. For example, she had a friend, with whom she subsequently fell out in a big way, whose girlfriend (1) has a degree in economics from the London School of Economics and (2) on any view was an extremely beautiful girl. But when she was telling me how much she hated this guy, she dragged the girlfriend into it, saying, " I can’t see what he even sees in her, she’s so stupid" (er, hello, she graduated in economics from the London School of Economics!) “and she’s not even much to look at”. She then went on to insinuate, no, to state outright, that the only reason her former friend was with the incredibly beautiful economist girlfriend was because her family was rich and he was after their money. The whole conversation was just horrible. I could scarcely believe someone could be so mean about a former friend and his girlfriend, who had done nothing to hurt anyone.

Would you be friends with a racist?

To be honest, much as the racism aspect distresses me, I am more upset by the more personal attacks on people such as the incident I mentioned above.

 

[Mrchatsworth]

Ok. Here’s the deal. It’s way simpler than you make it out to be. You say, “hey, we are good friends but when you are derogatory or bigoted about others in front of me it makes me uncomfortable, please don’t do that.” Then if she gets mad or continues to do it then you aren’t really that good of friends anyway. I get the impression that you argue with her about these things which probably just eggs her on.

But again, for the record, we shouldn’t say people we don’t know are dumb. But a degree is not really a barometer of intellect. My sister has graduate degrees and she is not the sharpest tool in the shed. Harvard has some pretty famous idiots as well. I know quite a few PHD’s who lead their respective fields and can’t figure out a public bathroom toilet paper dispenser. And beauty is always subject and in the eye of the beholder. Your friend may be mean, jealous, or catty but you can’t argue If someone is good looking. I don’t find many popular actresses attractive that many people do. It just is what it is.
But your solution is simple. Set boundaries, don’t argue, if she crosses the boundaries then she is breaching the relationship.

 

[MNathaniel]

OP, has this thread lost sight of your original question?

Am I being unreasonable in finding my friend’s views objectionable? I feel that I ought to tell her that I think she is wrong. However, I think she is so sure in her beliefs that she would never change her mind and I would just lose a friend.

I think the consensus here is obvious: You are being reasonable, not unreasonable, in finding your friend’s views objectionable.

At this point, I’m not sure what it adds to the conversation to keep listing new faults of hers, since chances are we’re only going to keep agreeing that faults are faults, and objectionable. So maybe stop listing new faults of hers, at this point.

The only real question seems to be what you do about this situation. And that’s up to you.

Personally my advice would be, take this to prayer. In front of the Blessed Sacrament, if possible. Ask God to guide you in your approach.

And my own suggestion, to be taken with a teaspoon of salt and ignored if Jesus sends you a different direction:

Recognize this relationship as dead (and deadening) from her end. From the sound of it, she’s not acting like a true friend to you. That’s beyond your control. If she wants to ‘come to life’ and begin to be a friend to you, her only chance of that seems to be if you gently and kindly (and firmly) let her know what the situation is. Let her know that for your own mental and emotional health, you will no longer spend time with her unless she stops verbally abusing you or even verbally abusing others while she’s around you. Then it’s up to her, an adult human, to decide whether she values your wellbeing and friendship more than she values her own pride and self-importance. And letting her live with the natural consequence of that decision (your peaceful, respectful withdrawal from her life until she makes a new decision) may be one of the most helpful things anyone ever does for her, making her actions ‘real’ to her for perhaps the first time in her life.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Regarding Catholic Churches not allowing such a marriage you are correct. But then again the Catholic Church now allow Gay Clergy…

Please elaborate on what you mean by “now allow”.

 

[MNathaniel]

@do_justly_love_mercy

Adding to my final comment here, because it’s been niggling at me since I walked away…

You don’t have to approach this in a confrontational way out of the blue, if that feels wrong. You may just choose to quietly stop spending time with this woman, and wait for her to ask why.

Then when (if) she asks why the two of you don’t spend time together anymore, that’s her literal invitation to a conversation. An opportunity for you to (again gently, kindly) let her know that you feel uncomfortable with X Y Z, and that you feel it’s unhealthy for you to spend time around those kinds of comments, and that for your own health and wellbeing you’re distancing yourself from environments where that happens (etc). You can emphasize that if she feels able to conduct herself differently you’d be happy to meet her for brunch on [specific day]… then after that, take it one day at a time. If she conducts herself badly over brunch, you can keep your distance again and not agree to a second brunch. If she does actually act differently, maybe there’s space for gradual progress (again, up to your own decision about how to proceed each step of the way, just as it is up to her own decision).

It can be uncomfortable in the moment, but these kinds of boundary-setting, gently clarifying conversations can be so important, whether with friend relationships or family relationships.

 

[do_justly_love_mercy]

I get the impression that you argue with her about these things which probably just eggs her on.

On the contrary, I never argue with her at all. In a way, that’s part of the problem, because I feel powerless to say anything. There are people who have tried arguing with her, but she just gets very angry and then refuses to speak to them.

But a degree is not really a barometer of intellect.

Okay, it’s not the only measure of intelligence, but I think it’s pretty mean to deride somebody as being stupid under any circumstances, and it seems all the more strange when the person is clearly not stupid. In addition to her economics degree from the LSE, I forgot to mention that she can speak Chinese. And I think making digs about someone’s appearance is pretty low. It doesn’t really matter what they look like, it’s pretty low under any circumstances. I’m just saying, this girl is not remotely bad looking, and my friend was just being horrible. There’s a pattern here too. She’s made really nasty comments about a guy we both know. I think she called him repulsive, although it may have been repellent. And she is always saying how stupid people are. Her favorite way of putting people down is to attack their intellect or education.

I’m not sure what it adds to the conversation to keep listing new faults of hers

I would agree. I’m only adding the above because I think it’s disingenuous to suggest that when she attacks someone as being stupid and ugly it’s because academic qualifications are not always a reliable guide to intelligence or because beauty is in the eye of the beholder. She was clearly being deliberately unkind, and I suspect she was being unkind because she knows this girl is incredibly intelligent and very good looking and that is clearly something she can’t bear. It’s often the same: when a mutual acquaintance has a big success (earns a graduate degree, lands a good job, gets married, etc.), there is a good chance the jibes will soon follow. Same thing happened when a guy we both know got married. She went around telling people he didn’t really love the woman he was marrying, he just needed a visa.

But, yes, overall I agree with your strategy. There is no point in a confrontation, because she will just get angry and never speak to me again. To be honest, I don’t think she’d ever believe she was in the wrong about anything. I may just have to impose some distancing of my own.

 

[Anicette]

Your friends views are more of an European, an Hungarian and a noble ancestry than an American.

I understand that her views stressed you, but I don’t think they are such uncommon.

I know some people who share some of theses views (not all), even in my family.

To begin with, we can be very proud of our family origins and much more if we are from noble heritage. defintely, Europeans are more able to understand that. I am proud of having been around casual friends/groups of Catholics friends who are of noble heritage, even if we don’t have monarchy in our country. I am also proud of some of my family heritage.

We have also to note that your friend is from hungarian ancestry. I don’t know very well hungary so what i would said would be a cliché and stereotype, but Hungarians tend to be a little like that. Proud of their heritage and xenophobics. The current hungarian governement want agreat hungarian nation, try to make the economy raised and take every measures they can to raise the natality ofs dying nation.They known some successes and are popular among Hungarians and in some circles (including conservatives and catholics) and very unpopular for progressives medias of western Europe and for European Union.

Gypsies and Roma are not well considered by some Hungarians and certainely not heleped by the government.

They (the elected governement) currently don’t see extra European immigration that go to their territory with a good eye. They don’t want immigration, they want more Hungarians (with higher births). Every migrants that I have worked with want to avoid Hungary that is a door to enter to European Union from the East (such as for Caucasians). And with Dublin II, they have to avoid it to go legally if they don’t want to submit their asylum ask to an hostile nation.

I would also said that Hungary is a country that is aging, post communist and where the economic situation remain difficult. One of their problem is also rampant suicide, to what some sociologists call “Magyar problem” that is a tendancy toward despair and depression.

Oh, to add, I am not a specialist, but there was a mess for a long time in central and East of Europe with lot of war and mooving countries and boarders. There are big hungarians communities that lived for a long time in close countries such as Romania where they are up to 6% of population.
But you seems to know more the topic than me!
So it is possible there is an resentment about all the history…

I aslo agree that your friend should have a idealized idea of Hungarian identity, a image from a glorious past (even if it was not so glorious and tainted with war) and that to live here may hurt her very hard because it may not as she dreamt it.

I hope to not have hurt an hungarian reader… sorry if I did.

 

[Anicette]

Long post to say nothing contructive!

My opinion is: some people are very proud of their heritage and how hard their ancestors may be wrong or doing harm at some points, despite their others qualities, they would not accepted someone else to point it. They would not accepted that somebody try to make them changed their world’s view. They perceived it as true.

You can try, but likely she will be obtuse and it would be hard for both of you.

To try to distroyed some ideas as false would mean destroy their identity and they would not let it happened. If this person perceived their identity as won by battles, they would go to the battlefield again to defend it.

Ultimately it is up to you if you want to stay with this friend despite your differences.It can work with maybe setting some conditions.

 

[adamhovey1988]

She is Hungarian American and is racist toward Jews, gypsies, Slavs, and Romanians (she believes Romanians are gypsies)

Does she confuse Romania with Romani? Some are Roma, but so are some Hungarians. My great grandmother’s last husband was a Hungarian Romani.

She says Romanians are sly, arrogant, and stupid, whereas Serbs are sly but clever.

Both can be either

When I said that gypsies could enjoy improved circumstances similar to African Americans, she said this was impossible, as gypsies are racially inferior to Africans

They’re Asian Indians. India has a lot of poverty, but they’ve had a lot of improvements with employment.

She was furious when a gypsy represented Hungary at Eurovision, as she says that a gypsy cannot be Hungarian.

See what I said above

My friend says everything Hungarian is better than everything that is not Hungarian. When my boyfriend and I went to Prague, she said we shouldn’t go, there’s nothing worth seeing, and she wondered what sort of people would want to go there. She was furious when I described a fictional character as “a Hungarian refugee”, saying, “A Hungarian is never a refugee; that word means something different.” She thinks there is a conspiracy to portray Hungary badly.

Okay, I understand that to some extent. I love my country, and would be very angry if it lost territory. But nothing to see in Prague?

She thinks Hungary’s role in the Holocaust was minimal and shouldn’t be talked about. She is hostile toward the British, especially Churchill, as she thinks Britain should have surrendered. She also condemns Eisenhower because he didn’t take NATO into a war against the Warsaw Pact in 1956.

Why would we want more war after a war?

. She is derogatory about Irish Americans, as they came to the US as laborers and now they are highly educated middle-class professionals. She scoffed when I mentioned SUNY and CUNY being good universities, even though my mom earned her PhD at CUNY Graduate Center.

My best friend is 1/4 Cherokee and 1/4 Irish. His family came here fairly recent. So recent, that he still has family in Ireland he talks to.

My friend has distorted ideas about Catholicism.

Curiously, my friend seems to regard Catholicism and Christianity as separate religions.

Christianity and Catholicism? That sounds more like a Southern Baptist.

 

[adamhovey1988]

Am I being unreasonable in finding my friend’s views objectionable? I feel that I ought to tell her that I think she is wrong. However, I think she is so sure in her beliefs that she would never change her mind and I would just lose a friend.

Keep in mind, you can have friends with different POVs than you. There is nothing wrong with that. But your friend should at least try to be, you know, friendly. As someone of Sinti and Roamanichal heritage (German/French Roma, don’t ask me why they call them Sinti, and Sinti call all Roma Sinti, and English Roma heritage), although this is not the heritage I identify with (but neither do I despise it), I would not feel very comfortable with your friend. Does your friend support genocide towards the Romani? Because this is sadly common.

 

[Salibi]

Does your friend support genocide towards the Romani? Because this is sadly common

I’m so sorry to hear that, but I think her friend is more xenophobic towards Romani than genocidal.

I am familiar with the OP’s friend’s type of thinking and similar mindsets exist in many countries of the world. From my personal experience, I would suggest that the OP’s friend’s views are informed more by xenophobic stereotypes that she probably inherited from an older family member than by genuine racism. That does not make her views or comments acceptable or un-racist, however. The distinction is fine, but it exists.

@do_justly_love_mercy, unless your friend is causing you too much upset (and she seems to), I wouldn’t recommend cutting her off. You seem to enjoy her company, so it might help to try to tune out her more objectionable views while focusing more on her pluses. Your friend reminds me of several people I know who are of a similar bent of thinking; as I mentioned above, their views are molded more by prevalent stereotypes in my country (Syrians are stupid, Palestinians are terrorists, etc…) than by genuine racism.

I may be completely off mark in my assessment, as I don’t know your friend personally, so I don’t know what makes her hold her views. This post merely reflects my assumptions.

 

[Anicette]

do_justly_love_mercy:

She is Hungarian American and is racist toward Jews, gypsies, Slavs, and Romanians (she believes Romanians are gypsies)

Does she confuse Romania with Romani? Some are Roma, but so are some Hungarians. My great grandmother’s last husband was a Hungarian Romani.

From what the Op write, the friend seems pretty well educated, in a good university, and perhaps a doctorate. I doubt that someone of her “level” of knowledge don’t know the difference between Romanian and Romani. But guess that it is possible that she put them all on the same level of “inferior gypsie race”.
Despite that many Romanian don’t considered well the Romani, that for the overwelming majority lives in miserable conditions in Romania (that’s almost unbelievable for an European Union country that such misery exists).

 

[Shasta-Rose]

Yes, I was just thinking now of a friend of mine. We became friends when we joined the same club. She helped me a lot in getting established in club events. We have practically none of the same opinions on anything, even down to what should be called a pot and what should be called a pan. Just, we have our own thoughts on everything. I have to laugh, and I say, You know, M_____, we have absolutely nothing in common; we can’t even borrow each other’s shoes! (She is quite a bit larger than I.) But the thing is, when we talk and we find we have different takes on a subject, I say, Well, here’s why I say this…,etc. And she shuts up and listens. And she will say, Yes, now that you explain your thoughts, I can see why you would feel that way. And I also listen to what she has to say. We respect each other, and we listen to each other, and it all just works out. We have been dear friends for over twenty years now. Respecting each other. Bouncing thoughts off each other. Talking it over. And we still have nothing in common.

 

[Norseman82]

I to will embrace them and love them even though I know they mean me harm.

If you want to “go above and beyond” and subject yourself to harm, that is up to you, but it is not your place to impose that on others or look down on them as bad Christians, which makes you guilty of what you are accusing others of doing, which is judging.

But I am happy to say I’m am wrong and they are right. Even though 100% they are wrong. To keep the peace and back down…

And that is exactly why error is propagated in the world…

Let’s be clear hear what Our Lord said on the Mount.

Love Your Enemies​

27 “But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. 29 To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic ]either. 30 Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. 31 And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.

32 “If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount. 35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. 36 Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.

I am so shocked and disappointed. Imagine Jesus saying, tell your friend go take a jump somewhere else…

Just awful.

It is also Catholic teaching that we should avoid near occasions of sin. Sometimes those occasions of sin are “bad companions”.

 

[Norseman82]

She is Hungarian American and is racist toward Jews, gypsies, Slavs, and Romanians (she believes Romanians are gypsies). She says Romanians are sly, arrogant, and stupid, whereas Serbs are sly but clever. When I said that gypsies could enjoy improved circumstances similar to African Americans, she said this was impossible, as gypsies are racially inferior to Africans. She was furious when a gypsy represented Hungary at Eurovision, as she says that a gypsy cannot be Hungarian.

My friend says everything Hungarian is better than everything that is not Hungarian.

Maybe sprinkle some blessed paprika on her?

 

[Servant31]

I would think challenging some of these assumptions in a charitable way on occasion.

Maybe like “Oh I don’t know, Ive met some pretty nice Hungarians”
Or. “I think there are people off all stripes like that. I like to look at people as individuals, people all have their own histories.”

Perhaps keep a psychological distance, or even a physical distance as needed. I tend to take people like that in short bursts. I think we are still called to love them, but do so in the appropriate context.

 

[Dorothy]

Perhaps it would be good to ask for wisdom from the Lord first, and then meet with her/him and tell what is on your mind about the remarks and distortions, as calmly as you can.

If your friend is angered, so be it. If you lose your friend so be it. Consider that you may have given your friend some good things to think about. Keep praying and it can bear fruit. We are supposed to correct others in love…even if they dislike you for it.