Responsibility of women

[latinmasslover]

Obedience to whom? Humility to whom? Modesty according to whom? Her husband?

The answer is plainly written in the Bible, not to mention the writings of the Saints and Popes. “You cannot serve both God and mammon.” Those were the (fallible?) words of Christ. There’s a choice we can all make: Follow Him or the modern opinion, which does nothing but degrade women. The world says that a woman is nothing unless she does everything a man does, and does it better. Say on the news you see men picketing the Vatican because “we can’t give birth, that’s not fair!” You would probably think them to be rather stupid. I know I would, but maybe that’s just because I’m a “judgmental” witch. Men and women are different, God made us that way. If you have a problem with it, then be honest and condemn the One responsible (which is God) and not those who adhere to what He says.

 

[latinmasslover]

God made me a woman…with a brain and thought processes. Again, someone grab the needle arm on the record player…it’s stuck in 1950. Geez louise…

I’m going to attempt to change the tone here. What is it about being a woman you don’t like? I absolutely love every aspect, I’m very greatful He made me this way. I understand that there have been some men (even many) who abused His commands, and treated his wife like a slave, but that doesn’t change our responsibilty. Just because another doesn’t live up to their end of the deal, doesn’t mean we don’t. God made us nurturers, caretakers, teachers. What is wrong with imitating the Mother of God by staying home and taking care of the family? The husband’s duty is to protect and provide. He is to be the head, and the wife is the heart. Why are so many women offended by this?

 

[nmoerbeek]

Obedience to whom? Humility to whom? Modesty according to whom? Her husband? surely you jest. Obey was not in my wedding vows. Yes, I was married in the Catholic Church in 1981, not 1881. How do you know what the “attitude” is in heaven, have you been there? So a woman is better off not getting involved in anything unless it has to do with diapers, cleaning and the latest recipe for potroast? I’m not interested in being or becoming a Stepford Wife. I have a brain and a voice…I will use it.
Arguement…no…discussion…yes…disagreement for sure.

As for modest…I’m a jeans and comfy shirt or sweater kind of woman. At 50, a mid-driff shirt would look horrible on me…too much “muffin top”. Haven’t worn a dress in years. Well, maybe a sun dress and flip flops that’s about it.

Full disclosure I used the internet to look these bible quotes up I did not have these memorized by heart However I have confidence in their accuracy.

Humble to God and to others
“And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.”
(Matthew 23:12)

Do nothing from selfishness or conceit, but in humility count others better than yourselves.
–2 Philippians 2:3

I read an article on Catholic exchange the other day (Cant remember and cant find) that reminded me of this. You are bound to submit to your husband (if you read the whole passage though your husband is bound to sacrifice everything for you if it comes to that)

"22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. "
Ephesians 5

I have not been their before but I do trust the virgin Mary in her apparitions at Fatima, I already provided a link for that.

Their have been many great saints such as St. Bridget of Sweden and St Catherine of Senna who wrote letters to leaders and people sought their advice. However, having a head for politics is not necessary for salvation. Being humble is, being obedient is, being modest is.

This is not limited to women but these three traits are exemplified in women

Mary was the most humble of all humans and now she is exalted. We cannot stand before god with pride and be accepted by him. No one is worthy of gods infinite goodness mercy and grace.

I was never suggesting that women only deal with diapers or be stepford wives (excess vanity is a sin too). However in the case of St Bridget (who had 8 children I think) or in the case of Venerable Zélie Martin (who ran her own profitable lace business, traded stock and had a head for current events) they put their duties of their family first with humility before god, obedience to their husbands and modesty in their every day dress.

I hope you find these arguments compelling. I do enjoy discussing this with you. May we both be witness to the truth that is the Glory of God.

 

[Julianna]

I’m going to attempt to change the tone here. What is it about being a woman you don’t like? I absolutely love every aspect, I’m very greatful He made me this way. I understand that there have been some men (even many) who abused His commands, and treated his wife like a slave, but that doesn’t change our responsibilty. Just because another doesn’t live up to their end of the deal, doesn’t mean we don’t. God made us nurturers, caretakers, teachers. What is wrong with imitating the Mother of God by staying home and taking care of the family? The husband’s duty is to protect and provide. He is to be the head, and the wife is the heart. Why are so many women offended by this?

I love being a woman…no problem there. I think for myself…I speak what I think…I express my thoughts when asked. I don’t excuse myself and am not a shrinking violet. I know men who are caretakers and teachers and do a great job. If a woman wants to stay home and take care of the family and her husband has the “benjamins” to keep the family afloat…more power to her. But staying home doesn’t mean your mind goes to mush and it is always good…especially in this economy to have a back up plan. If my DH lost his job…I would be out there hitting the streets looking for work…that is how I would stand by my man…not sit there whining not knowing what to do or have any marketable skill to help out the family.

My DH always told me…“if you make more money than I …hey, I’ll stay home with kids” It never happened…but it would have worked fine with me. It is too risky now days for a woman not have money in her own right…or a marketable skilled combined with a higher education. It is what it is.

 

[Salonika]

latinmasslover:

God made us (women) nurturers, caretakers, teachers. What is wrong with imitating the Mother of God by staying home and taking care of the family? The husband’s duty is to protect and provide. He is to be the head, and the wife is the heart. Why are so many women offended by this?

Some of us are offended when this is made the norm as it does not take individuality into account. If it is what people choose fine. If it used to bash those who make a another choice (unless it is to be a priest or a religious) then it is offensive.

It is offensive in the same way that saying that women should only wear dresses is offensive as it says that a women who wears anything else is immodest and not a real woman.

I’ve never wished that I was male but as a child in the 1950’s who was not allowed to do somethings just because I was a girl, I certainly wanted the wider choices boys had.

 

[Salonika]

Hi folks

This isn’t a contribution to this thread, but to let you know that I have started a new thread based on nmoerbeek’s comment

“Can we all agree on two basic precepts
Men should try to emulate Christ
Women should try to emulate Mary”

Thought some of you might be interested in discussing the comment in a wider context.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

Full disclosure I used the internet to look these bible quotes up I did not have these memorized by heart However I have confidence in their accuracy.

Humble to God and to others
“And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.”
(Matthew 23:12)

Do nothing from selfishness or conceit, but in humility count others better than yourselves.
–2 Philippians 2:3

I read an article on Catholic exchange the other day (Cant remember and cant find) that reminded me of this. You are bound to submit to your husband (if you read the whole passage though your husband is bound to sacrifice everything for you if it comes to that)

"22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. "
Ephesians 5

I have not been their before but I do trust the virgin Mary in her apparitions at Fatima, I already provided a link for that.

Their have been many great saints such as St. Bridget of Sweden and St Catherine of Senna who wrote letters to leaders and people sought their advice. However, having a head for politics is not necessary for salvation. Being humble is, being obedient is, being modest is.

This is not limited to women but these three traits are exemplified in women

Mary was the most humble of all humans and now she is exalted. We cannot stand before god with pride and be accepted by him. No one is worthy of gods infinite goodness mercy and grace.

I was never suggesting that women only deal with diapers or be stepford wives (excess vanity is a sin too). However in the case of St Bridget (who had 8 children I think) or in the case of Venerable Zélie Martin (who ran her own profitable lace business, traded stock and had a head for current events) they put their duties of their family first with humility before god, obedience to their husbands and modesty in their every day dress.

I hope you find these arguments compelling. I do enjoy discussing this with you. May we both be witness to the truth that is the Glory of God.

I’m waiting for someone to mention Judith of Bethulia in this conversation…

 

[nmoerbeek]

I’m waiting for someone to mention Judith of Bethulia in this conversation…

Lets talk about Judith of Bethuila

"
And Judith his relict was a widow now three years and six months.

And she made herself a private chamber in the upper part of her house, in which she abode shut up with her maids.
And she wore haircloth upon her loins, and fasted all the days of her life, except the sabbaths, and new moons, and the feasts of the house of Israel. "

Also on humility

*And therefore let us humble our souls before him, and continuing in an humble spirit, in his service:

Let us ask the Lord with tears, that according to his will so he would shew his mercy to us: that as our heart is troubled by their pride, so also we may glorify in our humility.

For we have not followed the sins of our fathers, who forsook their God, and worshipped strange gods.

For which crime they were given up to their enemies, to the sword, and to pillage, and to confusion: but we know no other God but him.

Let us humbly wait for his consolation, and the Lord our God will require our blood of the afflictions of our enemies, and he will humble all the nations that shall rise up against us, and bring them to disgrace.
*

 

[Cracker_Mom]

Lets talk about Judith of Bethuila

"
And Judith his relict was a widow now three years and six months.

And she made herself a private chamber in the upper part of her house, in which she abode shut up with her maids.
And she wore haircloth upon her loins, and fasted all the days of her life, except the sabbaths, and new moons, and the feasts of the house of Israel. "

Also on humility

*And therefore let us humble our souls before him, and continuing in an humble spirit, in his service:

Let us ask the Lord with tears, that according to his will so he would shew his mercy to us: that as our heart is troubled by their pride, so also we may glorify in our humility.

For we have not followed the sins of our fathers, who forsook their God, and worshipped strange gods.

For which crime they were given up to their enemies, to the sword, and to pillage, and to confusion: but we know no other God but him.

Let us humbly wait for his consolation, and the Lord our God will require our blood of the afflictions of our enemies, and he will humble all the nations that shall rise up against us, and bring them to disgrace.
*

Now I’m waiting for “The rest of the story.”
I love these forums.They are the only place outside of Saudi Arabia that I can feel like a liberal!

 

[latinmasslover]

What about the rest of the story? Judith’s life was not the norm. She stepped out of it because she was required to do so, but it was not her preference. Should a woman work? Yes, if she has no husband and no other means of support. Let’s not forget St. Joan of Arc. Guess what? She didn’t want to go to war. She admitted during the trial that she’d rather be home “spinning with my mother.” You can’t turn the exception into the rule.

If my husband couldn’t work, you better believe I would. The key word here is “couldn’t,” as in was unable to. If he just lost his job, I’m not going to go out and look for work. Why? Because I trust that God is going to help him do what He commands him to do.

If God’s Word is nothing more than a polite suggestion, what else do we not have to follow? Do we even have to worship Him? Can I choose to pray to the goddess Artemis simply because I feel closer to the Divine when doing so? Okay, I can, but is it justified before the Lord? Is murder forbidden, or does He only encourage us not to do so? Fornication? “But I love him, he loves me, God will understand!” Let’s bring up abortion and euthanasia. “But I was raped, therefore I can murder my child…But Mom’s suffering, I should be able to put her out of her misery.” Before anyone goes on a rant about my daring to bring up another issue, keep in mind it’s not a change of topic but a comparison.

Just out of curiosity, how many of you who support feminism (even if not in it’s most liberal aspects) would support drafting women for war? How about a man striking a woman? Is he a brute because of it?

 

[Salonika]

latinmasslover:

Should a woman work? Yes, if she has no husband and no other means of support.

I thought all women worked - those who work at home looking after children, elderly people and those with disabilities as well as those in the paid workforce. Also I think that volunteers also work, they just don’t get paid for it.

Would you also have those of us who do not have a husband (from choice) who have other means eg a legacy, a nest egg leave the work force?

What is so sinful about women in paid employment. Do you see them doing volunteer work in the same light?

latinmasslover:

.But Mom’s suffering, I should be able to put her out of her misery.

Would you go to other extreme and keep her alive at all costs?

And what is said she was ready to die and wanted to go peacefully?

Just out of curiosity, how many of you who support feminism (even if not in it’s most liberal aspects) would support drafting women for war?

As a pacificist at heart I abhor war and what it does to EVERYONE involved. In a war situaton there needs to a varierty of ways people can serve. For example you could draft people’s resources eg money.

How about a man striking a woman? Is he a brute because of it?

He has an anger problem as would a women who hit a man. It should be dealt with.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

What about the rest of the story? Judith’s life was not the norm. She stepped out of it because she was required to do so, but it was not her preference. Should a woman work? Yes, if she has no husband and no other means of support. Let’s not forget St. Joan of Arc. Guess what? She didn’t want to go to war. She admitted during the trial that she’d rather be home “spinning with my mother.” You can’t turn the exception into the rule.

If my husband couldn’t work, you better believe I would. The key word here is “couldn’t,” as in was unable to. If he just lost his job, I’m not going to go out and look for work. Why? Because I trust that God is going to help him do what He commands him to do.

If God’s Word is nothing more than a polite suggestion, what else do we not have to follow? Do we even have to worship Him? Can I choose to pray to the goddess Artemis simply because I feel closer to the Divine when doing so? Okay, I can, but is it justified before the Lord? Is murder forbidden, or does He only encourage us not to do so? Fornication? “But I love him, he loves me, God will understand!” Let’s bring up abortion and euthanasia. “But I was raped, therefore I can murder my child…But Mom’s suffering, I should be able to put her out of her misery.” Before anyone goes on a rant about my daring to bring up another issue, keep in mind it’s not a change of topic but a comparison.

Just out of curiosity, how many of you who support feminism (even if not in it’s most liberal aspects) would support drafting women for war? How about a man striking a woman? Is he a brute because of it?

I’d rather be home spinning, too, but that’s not what this thread’s supposed to be about.

 

[latinmasslover]

Some of us are offended when this is made the norm as it does not take individuality into account. If it is what people choose fine. If it used to bash those who make a another choice (unless it is to be a priest or a religious) then it is offensive.

It is offensive in the same way that saying that women should only wear dresses is offensive as it says that a women who wears anything else is immodest and not a real woman.

I’ve never wished that I was male but as a child in the 1950’s who was not allowed to do somethings just because I was a girl, I certainly wanted the wider choices boys had.

Many are offended when told not to do something they want to do. Sorry, but that’s life, in the physical sense as well as the spiritual.

 

[nmoerbeek]

I’d rather be home spinning, too, but that’s not what this thread’s supposed to be about.

Your right this thread is about defining two things.

First : The moral obligation of women
Second : The pursuit of holiness

Women are obliged to be modest in their dress for if they are not they are committing sin.

However those who wish to pursue perfection will have to take modesty an extra step to even limit what would be lawful for them to wear in the spirit of sacrifice for Christ and love of their neighbor.

These same rules apply to men as well, however modesty amongst men was not as large of an issue in the past. Now that women who hold power could also be seduced men have greater responsibility to modesty for the need of holiness is greater.

 

[latinmasslover]

I thought all women worked - those who work at home looking after children, elderly people and those with disabilities as well as those in the paid workforce. Also I think that volunteers also work, they just don’t get paid for it.

I was referring to a career.

Would you also have those of us who do not have a husband (from choice) who have other means eg a legacy, a nest egg leave the work force?

If one is single and has no means of support, of course employment should be sought. I’m not suggesting single women mooch off the government.

What is so sinful about women in paid employment. Do you see them doing volunteer work in the same light?

A wife/mother’s place is in the home. Again, it’s a different story for single women.

Would you go to other extreme and keep her alive at all costs?

And what is said she was ready to die and wanted to go peacefully?

Let God have His way. If it’s time for Mom to die, it’s time to die. If she wants to “go peacefully,” oh well. Why does she need the law to say “yes, it’s okay for you to pop the pills.” Euthanasia is for people who know what they’re doing is wrong, but need some sort of justification. If she wants to die, let her do it herself.

As a pacificist at heart I abhor war and what it does to EVERYONE involved. In a war situaton there needs to a varierty of ways people can serve. For example you could draft people’s resources eg money.

So, there’s a draft and *women *are called in. You wouldn’t oppose?

He has an anger problem as would a women who hit a man. It should be dealt with.

Sorry, I should’ve been more specific. If a woman hits a man, is he justified in hitting her back? If not, why?

 

[Cracker_Mom]

Many are offended when told not to do something they want to do. Sorry, but that’s life, in the physical sense as well as the spiritual.

Many consider the source of the offense,disregard it charitably & move on to more important things & other forums.

 

[nmoerbeek]

Many consider the source of the offense,disregard it charitably & move on to more important things & other forums.

You mean just like how when obedience was to much to ask of Adam and Eve they moved out of the Garden of Eden

 

[latinmasslover]

I’d rather be home spinning, too, but that’s not what this thread’s supposed to be about.

That’s it? You’re the one that brought up Judith. Did you want the rest of the story or not? If you did, we could discuss her lying. Sin #1. Her seducing. #2. Getting the general drunk. 3. And last but not least, killing a man while in a drunken stupor.

Her story is a story of exceptions, not the norm.

Now I’ll repeat the questions you seemed to have overlooked:

1. Would you support the drafting of women for war?
2. If a woman hits a man, is he morally permitted to hit her back?

Lack of an answer suggests to me you want the best of both worlds. It doesn’t work that way. One or the other.

 

[Julianna]

latinmasslover…

1. I don’t support the draft for anyone…male or female
2. I don’t support a man hitting a woman or visa versa.

Now a question for you.

You stated that you would not look for a job if your husband found himself out of work, i.e. lost his job due to economy…

1. Who do you think is going to pay the bills, the mortgage, the light bill, etc.?

As a helpmate to her husband, the women will need to go out to work to help out the family “financially” till such a time the husband can find work…in the meantime, he will be looking for work. I cannot imagine sitting on my duff…while the bills just pile up. Not very realistic.

When my DH was laid off his job in '82, I went to work. When I found out I was pregnant with our first…my husband still did not have a job…so I changed job and worked in childcare. He landed a job a few months later. The little amount of money I brought in was enough to pay our bills and we didn’t go into debt.

I have worked all my life. I didn’t want to be away from my children…so the logical step was to work in childcare. My children were always with me up until they went to grade school at a Catholic school. I ended up getting a job there. When they went to high school I landed a job with Uncle Sam. I enjoy my work. My children (one is married) the other in college never lost sight of their mother. Yes, the job paid low wages, but it afforded us to buy a home, otherwise we would still be living in a 14 X 60 2 bedroom trailer. In the 1980’s the economy was just as bad as it is now.

A responsible woman, wife and mother always has a back up plan.

 

[latinmasslover]

1. Who do you think is going to pay the bills, the mortgage, the light bill, etc.?

He’d be out everyday looking for work like a man. God will provide, and until He fails me I will always believe that. When there are no children, the story is a little different. I never said that women working is *always *a sin. There are exceptions to every rule. “I want a second car…I want a vacation home in Paris…I want to be able to send every child I have to college…I want to be able to have *my *own money to spend how *I *so choose…No one’s going to tell me that I can’t do what I want to do, if he can do it, I have every right to do it too…” These are sinful reasons for a woman, especially a mother, to work. Her role is in the home, his in the workplace.

Now, husband gets in a car accident, dies. Mother works. No sin in that. He leaves the marriage and she has to provide for herself and her children. No sin there either. Again, there are exceptions to every rule, I have never denied that. I am simply opposed to turning the exception into the norm.

A responsible woman, wife and mother always has a back up plan.

No argument there.