Resurrection is a false concept

  • Thread starter Thread starter Bahman
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Catholic believe that man is made of mater and soul. Soul however is an immaterial thing and it is form of body. Soul gets separated from body upon death. Soul however cannot occupy any room since it is immaterial. This means that soul cannot be located by God. Hence the concept of resurrection is false.
A couple of things, Bahman. Firstly, your argument doesn’t prove that resurrection is false, since God could resurrect someone even if they died and no longer existed immaterially. Secondly, the argument seems circular:

(1) The soul is immaterial.
(2) Whatever is immaterial does not occupy physical space.
(3) Whatever does not occupy physical space cannot be located.
(4) The soul cannot be located because it is immaterial.

The immateriality of the soul means it does not inhabit a physical or spatio-temporal location but it does not follow that it has no location. My thought of the colour red has no spatio-temporal location but if asked, “Where is your thought?” I say it’s in my mind, and I know it.
 
  1. Why can’t immaterial things be located? Heat is immaterial. Sound is immaterial. Color is immaterial. I can locate the red in my living room easily. It’s there where my pillow is. I’m not locating the pillow, I’m locating the red.
  2. If we’re granting God and souls for the sake of this argument, God is also immaterial. Is it necessarily the case that an immaterial being cannot locate an immaterial thing?
  3. If we’re granting souls, and we grant that when someone dies, the soul goes elsewhere, then it follows that the soul goes SOMEWHERE. If the soul is SOMEWHERE, then it can be located. Because SOMEWHERE is a location.
  4. If we’re granting God, then we’re obliged to grant that God doesn’t have to play by our human rules.
  5. Space is immaterial. Yet it seems to be everywhere. We can locate it.
 
A couple of things, Bahman. Firstly, your argument doesn’t prove that resurrection is false, since God could resurrect someone even if they died and no longer existed immaterially. Secondly, the argument seems circular:

(1) The soul is immaterial.
(2) Whatever is immaterial does not occupy physical space.
(3) Whatever does not occupy physical space cannot be located.
(4) The soul cannot be located because it is immaterial.

The immateriality of the soul means it does not inhabit a physical or spatio-temporal location but it does not follow that it has no location. My thought of the colour red has no spatio-temporal location but if asked, “Where is your thought?” I say it’s in my mind, and I know it.
Except that your mind is solidly in your head, so at that level the analogy is imperfect.

ICXC NIKA
 
I didn’t mean it literally, of course.

I meant to say that your view of the world consists solely of the room you are in (the “material world”) and you (Bahman) can’t understand anything outside of that definition (the “immaterial world” or wherever God is supposed to be in). You can’t grasp that a soul (immaterial thing) can be “placed in places” by God. OBVIOUSLY, I don’t mean spatial places, nor places in the universe as we know it, but in “immaterial places”.
Your argument make no sense. I repeat again: soul doesn’t occupy any place upon death since it is form of body hence it cannot be located even in immaterial realm. This means that resurrection is impossible.
 
Let me put this argument into another form, one which might shed some light. I’ll use the same form as your argument above and parody it.

Authors believe that a “story” is made of a soul – the ideas (theme, plot, characters, setting, etc.,) – and matter – the book (the paper, ink and cardboard that embodies the ideas.) The ideas, however, are immaterial things, yet they are the “form” of the story. If the ideas get separated from the physical, material book, say, when a story is written in a foreign language and that language dies or no one is around who can translate it, then the story could be said to be “dead.” Form is separated from the matter.

The ideas, however, cannot occupy any room since they are immaterial. This means that the story cannot be located by anyone. In fact, if your logic holds, then not even God can “locate” the story since it is immaterial and cannot occupy any room. Hence the concept of resurrecting a story is false.

Furthermore, when anyone reads the story, they are essentially breathing life into the cold, dead text (ink on paper,) by collecting together ideas and meaning which are neither found in space or take up room. In essence, a reader “resurrects” a story after it has been written. You would say that is “logically impossible” since the meaning or “form” of the story is not locatable in space or does it “take up room.” How, then, do readers breathe meaning into the materials of ink and paper when they read?

Unfortunately, you also forget a few other things.
  1. God is the original author of the “story” – the body with its form, the soul. Ergo, he can rewrite it, just like the original human author of a story could reconstitute it, especially easy if the physical book (the body of the story) remains.
  2. God is all-knowing (and presumably never forgets anything because he would know what he forgot,) ergo resurrecting a human being – re-assembling the body and soul into a human being would be as easy for God as it would be easy for an author with perfect memory to re-write a story – putting the same ideas into the same words embodied into book form even if all the extant copies were destroyed. The fact that those ideas are not locatable nor “take up room” in space is irrelevant as to whether the author with perfect memory could re-write (resurrect) the story.
If a human author with perfect memory could re-write the story, then an all-knowing, all-powerful God could reconstruct (resurrect) a human being.
  1. Resurrection does not, in Catholic theology, mean that God places the soul in the same worn out body. It means that God places the perfected soul in a glorified body. That would be like writing an improved version of the story on brand new paper using even better expressions of words to convey a more perfect meaning.
  2. Even human beings (who are not the original authors) can re-assemble a story when the form (meaning) is separated from the body (textual material) and the “story” is essentially dead. Egyptologists have “resurrected” a great deal of the Egyptian “story” using the decoded “dead” scripts (hieroglyphics and demotics) found on the Rosetta Stone. If humans can do that, it would seem God ought to be able to do something analogous with regard to the form of human beings.
We are talking about all-knowing and all-powerful not just any being limited to time and space, correct?
I am afraid that your example of book is not a good analogy. This is true since the content of book resembles our lives rather than our soul.
 
Your argument make no sense. I repeat again: soul doesn’t occupy any place upon death since it is form of body hence it cannot be located even in immaterial realm. This means that resurrection is impossible.
So you admit the existence of an “immaterial realm”?

Why couldn’t beings from that realm be retrieved and placed in a body?

By your line of thought, nothing in the “immaterial realm” takes up any space, therefore finding anything physically would not be an issue.

ICXC NIKA
 
The problem remains only for you.

If your soul is within God’s mind, it will be no problem whatsoever for Him to rebody you, irrespective of the fate of your original body.

ICXC NIKA
It is not simple. It is in fact impossible since as it was mentioned earlier soul does not occupy any place upon death hence it cannot be located whether inside or outside of God minds. This means that resurrection is impossible.
 
It is not simple. It is in fact impossible since as it was mentioned earlier soul does not occupy any place upon death hence it cannot be located whether inside or outside of God minds.
God doesn’t take up any space either, neither do angels or demons. There is a metaphysical realm where these entities exist as separate and distinct beings and that is where our souls will reside, as separate and distinct beings. I can’t explain it, having never experienced it, but I believe it because I believe God exists and through him these other truths have been revealed to us.

You spend so much time and energy arguing about whether or not God can do this or that. Maybe you should go back to the basics and try to figure out for yourself whether God himself exists.
 
We are “going nowhere” ONLY if we try to get there on our own.

Hence, the teaching of the Church on supernatural grace, supernatural virtues and the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Accepting the fact that teaching of church you are at most a follower. This means that you don’t have any respect for human dignity to make your own way in your spiritual journey. This means that you don’t respect God and his creation either.
 
You discard too much data, on the whole.

I find some members’ explanations more convincing or clearer than others. Overall, they build up quite a picture. My mind is stimulated. I keep on checking the concepts out and seeing how they work.

An explanation is meant to point at something. We can use our visual thinking, which has got dimensions.
I am sorry that I could not understand your comment and see how it is related to OP.
 
I am afraid that your example of book is not a good analogy. This is true since the content of book resembles our lives rather than our soul.
Are you not missing Peter’s point? Is the content of the book material or immaterial?

God bless,
Ut
 
A couple of things, Bahman. Firstly, your argument doesn’t prove that resurrection is false, since God could resurrect someone even if they died and no longer existed immaterially. Secondly, the argument seems circular:

(1) The soul is immaterial.
(2) Whatever is immaterial does not occupy physical space.
(3) Whatever does not occupy physical space cannot be located.
(4) The soul cannot be located because it is immaterial.

The immateriality of the soul means it does not inhabit a physical or spatio-temporal location but it does not follow that it has no location. My thought of the colour red has no spatio-temporal location but if asked, “Where is your thought?” I say it’s in my mind, and I know it.
 
Accepting the fact that teaching of church you are at most a follower. This means that you don’t have any respect for human dignity to make your own way in your spiritual journey. This means that you don’t respect God and his creation either.
Do you live in a cave and try to discover everything, including fire and clothing, for yourself? Or do you make use of what was discovered long ago by others?

We cannot live long enough to think out everything for ourself. So our only hope of understanding anything at all is to make use of the discoveries of those before us.

Even the (IMNAAHO misapplied) statements by you concerning “logical fallacies” and “the immaterial realm” were taught to you by someone; you didn’t make them up. Since your ideas are piggybacked on the categories of others, are you “at most a follower”???

ICXC NIKA
 
A couple of things, Bahman. Firstly, your argument doesn’t prove that resurrection is false, since God could resurrect someone even if they died and no longer existed immaterially.
That is only a claim. You need to provide an counter-argument against OP.
Secondly, the argument seems circular:

(1) The soul is immaterial.
(2) Whatever is immaterial does not occupy physical space.
(3) Whatever does not occupy physical space cannot be located.
(4) The soul cannot be located because it is immaterial.
It is not circular argument.
The immateriality of the soul means it does not inhabit a physical or spatio-temporal location but it does not follow that it has no location.
Anything has to have a form otherwise it could not be experienced. Soul could not have any location upon death since otherwise it could be experienced. One can locate something if and only if it has a from.
My thought of the colour red has no spatio-temporal location but if asked, “Where is your thought?” I say it’s in my mind, and I know it.
The color has a form inside your consciousness and that is why we could experience it.
 
Catholic believe that man is made of mater and soul. Soul however is an immaterial thing and it is form of body. Soul gets separated from body upon death. Soul however cannot occupy any room since it is immaterial. This means that soul cannot be located by God. Hence the concept of resurrection is false.
Another thread based on the assumption that God cannot do much of anything.
ok…
Not sure what you are expecting from a bunch of God-believing Catholics.
 
No I don’t.

The content of book has a form which we could experience it like anything else in the world hence it is material otherwise we couldn’t experience it.
So ideas - all ideas - are material for you?

God bless,
Ut
 
Do you live in a cave and try to discover everything, including fire and clothing, for yourself? Or do you make use of what was discovered long ago by others?

We cannot live long enough to think out everything for ourself. So our only hope of understanding anything at all is to make use of the discoveries of those before us.

Even the (IMNAAHO misapplied) statements by you concerning “logical fallacies” and “the immaterial realm” were taught to you by someone; you didn’t make them up. Since your ideas are piggybacked on the categories of others, are you “at most a follower”???

ICXC NIKA
We simply need to stand on shoulder of Giants in order to see farther otherwise we will never grow. This means that we have to be follower until we learn the whole lesson. However, we have to judge our system of belief when we face with a paradox.
 
Another thread based on the assumption that God cannot do much of anything.
ok…
Not sure what you are expecting from a bunch of God-believing Catholics.
I need an argument against my argument.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top