Resurrection is a false concept

[Bahman]

Where would you locate squareness?

To locate it all a master builder has to do is grab any old chunk of matter and impose that form.

Hey… God is so powerful he can even do one better… he can even impose the form of materiality on nothingness!
Easy peasy.

Concepts rest inside subconscious mind and are delivered into conscious mind when they are supposed to be experienced. They of course have a form in both conscious and subconscious mind. The rest of your post is simply a set of claims.

 

[Bahman]

Your argument against resurrection is false - “Since the soul is immaterial, God cannot locate it.” Counter-argument: God not only created the Universe, meaning both the material and the spiritual, but He sustains it at every moment. All then that exists is intimately connected to God the Creator. A person then may be lost to him or herself, but not to their source. Analogy: a stream, spilling out of a lake, may meander into unfamiliar terrain and so in a sense not be fully known to itself. Yet it remains ever connected to its source, the lake - the human being, body and soul, to the Godhead.

You need to provide a counter-argument to show that my argument is wrong. Your post is mainly a set of claims.

 

[Bahman]

As you sort of mention here, the human soul is an immaterial spirit. Yet, when it is united to the human body which forms a human person, the immaterial soul is in the body and in the place wherever the body is. For wherever the body goes, obviously our soul goes with it. Accordingly, an immaterial soul or spirit can be in a place. But, our soul is in the body not as being contained by the body, but as containing the body. Consequently, a spirit, such as the angels or separated human souls are in a place not as being contained by it such as bodies are, but as containing the place by contact of power. Separated human souls and the angels are in place as far as the “reach”, so to say, of their power can extend which is limited. Only God is everywhere while creatures are somewhere.

If immaterial things like soul occupy any room and could be experienced directly then what is the point of giving it a body (embedding them inside matter)?

 

[jonathan_hili]

Except that your mind is solidly in your head, so at that level the analogy is imperfect.

ICXC NIKA

Hi GEddie, I’m not sure I’d agree that your mind is “in” your head. Your brain certainly is and the mind is corresponsive with the brain, but they aren’t the same thing.

 

[jonathan_hili]

That is only a claim. You need to provide an counter-argument against OP.

There is nothing logically or metaphysically contradictory with God resurrecting or reincarnating someone who ceased to exist even if their souls ceased to exist to. If God can create someone, body and soul, from nothing, there is no reason why He cannot re-create someone from nothing.

Anything has to have a form otherwise it could not be experienced. Soul could not have any location upon death since otherwise it could be experienced. One can locate something if and only if it has a from.

But “that the soul cannot be experienced” is the point you need to prove, not simply assume. You’re also assuming all forms have to be material forms but my argument is that there are immaterial forms too. The colour “red” certainly has a form inside my consciousness but it is an immaterial form since my consciousness is likewise immaterial.

 

[Bahman]

There is nothing logically or metaphysically contradictory with God resurrecting or reincarnating someone who ceased to exist even if their souls ceased to exist to. If God can create someone, body and soul, from nothing, there is no reason why He cannot re-create someone from nothing.

These are a set of claims.

But “that the soul cannot be experienced” is the point you need to prove, not simply assume. You’re also assuming all forms have to be material forms but my argument is that there are immaterial forms too. The colour “red” certainly has a form inside my consciousness but it is an immaterial form since my consciousness is likewise immaterial.

I agree that concepts in general are immaterial forms. There is however a question related to soul: If soul has a form then why God bothered to embed it inside matter? This question is important since if soul has a form then it can experience and be experienced so it is functional.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Let me be more precise on this subject. Whatever we experience can be divided into two category depending on where they are: 1) object and 2) ideas. Objects reside inside physical space but they can be delivered inside our conscious mind for experience. It is the duty of sensory system to convert object to a form which can be experienced by conscious mind. Ideas however reside inside subconsciousness and can be delivered into conscious mind for experience.

Anything that we experience occupy a room in conscious mind.

In other words you are imagining - constructing in your imagination - a “room” in the “conscious mind” to be filled with experiences.

Okay, this solves God’s problem of containing all those loose souls when they depart from their bodies.

What he does is imagine a room (a very large one) where souls go in his “conscious mind” so that he can keep track of them - an eternal day care of sorts for his “children” while they await the resurrection. They each have little coat hooks and lockers to keep their soulish “stuff.” A nameplate on the table in front of their chair and a file in the cabinet with all their pertinent data - virtues, relatives, forgiven sins, and such. Well organized with lots of imagined caregivers. God wouldn’t want social services to come after him.

Hey, if you can go all “ad hoc” there is no reason why God, who is infinitely more powerful and imaginative than you, couldn’t do the same. Ergo, problem solved.

(name removed by moderator), I am beginning to believe you are correct.

 

[utunumsint]

Let me be more precise on this subject. Whatever we experience can be divided into two category depending on where they are: 1) object and 2) ideas. Objects reside inside physical space but they can be delivered inside our conscious mind for experience. It is the duty of sensory system to convert object to a form which can be experienced by conscious mind. Ideas however reside inside subconsciousness and can be delivered into conscious mind for experience.

Anything that we experience occupy a room in conscious mind.

I would like to understand you. So I hope you can bear with my questions.

1-Everything we experience can be divided into objects and ideas.
2-Ideas only exist in the mind.
3-The mind is divided into the subconscious and the conscious.
4-Only the conscious mind actually experiences ideas.
5-The conscious mind (I presume) either

• experiences ideas drawn from the subconscious.
• experiences ideas converted from sensory stimulus.

6-This conversion process from sensory stimuli to an idea is from one form to another form. Perhaps from the form Object to the form Idea?

Have I represented you correctly?

God bless,
Ut

 

[Bahman]

In other words you are imagining - constructing in your imagination - a “room” in the “conscious mind” to be filled with experiences.

Okay, this solves God’s problem of containing all those loose souls when they depart from their bodies.

What he does is imagine a room (a very large one) where souls go in his “conscious mind” so that he can keep track of them - an eternal day care of sorts for his “children” while they await the resurrection. They each have little coat hooks and lockers to keep their soulish “stuff.” A nameplate on the table in front of their chair and a file in the cabinet with all their pertinent data - virtues, relatives, forgiven sins, and such. Well organized with lots of imagined caregivers. God wouldn’t want social services to come after him.

Hey, if you can go all “ad hoc” there is no reason why God, who is infinitely more powerful and imaginative than you, couldn’t do the same. Ergo, problem solved.

(name removed by moderator), I am beginning to believe you are correct.

Soul either can have a form when it is separated from matter or it cannot. In first case, why God bother to embed soul inside matter? In this case soul has a form and can be experienced and can experience. In second case soul does not have a form hence cannot be located and resurrected.

 

[Bahman]

I would like to understand you. So I hope you can bear with my questions.

1-Everything we experience can be divided into objects and ideas.
2-Ideas only exist in the mind.
3-The mind is divided into the subconscious and the conscious.
4-Only the conscious mind actually experiences ideas.
5-The conscious mind (I presume) either

• experiences ideas drawn from the subconscious.
• experiences ideas converted from sensory stimulus.

6-This conversion process from sensory stimuli to an idea is from one form to another form. Perhaps from the form Object to the form Idea?

Have I represented you correctly?

God bless,
Ut

Perfect.

 

[utunumsint]

Excellent. I think this conversation will go a lot more smoothly if folks can have an accurate understanding of where you are coming from. I’ll just add a few more points after 6 that came to mind. If you could confirm those as well, I would appreciate it.

1-Everything we experience can be divided into objects and ideas.
2-Ideas only exist in the mind.
3-The mind is divided into the subconscious and the conscious.
4-Only the conscious mind actually experiences ideas.
5-The conscious mind (I presume) either

• experiences ideas drawn from the subconscious.
• experiences ideas converted from sensory stimulus.

6-This conversion process from sensory stimuli to an idea is from one form to another form. Perhaps from the form Object to the form Idea?
7.Both objects and ideas are material things.
8.As material things you can physically locate them. For example, I can point to a dog or, if I was a skilled enough neurosurgeon, I could open up the human brain and point to the idea of dog.
9.A skilled neurosurgeon could even point to the area of the brain where the idea of Dog is located that corresponds to the subconscious and where that idea would be located in the conscious part of the brain.

Is this correct? I think I am correctly representing you on 7, but 8 and 9 are my extrapolations, so I may be going beyond what you would grant.

God bless,
Ut

 

[Peter_Plato]

Soul either can have a form when it is separated from matter or it cannot. In first case, why God bother to embed soul inside matter? In this case soul has a form and can be experienced and can experience. In second case soul does not have a form hence cannot be located and resurrected.

This is where your “argument,” essentially, falls apart.

Why, in the first case, does God have NO problem “embedding” the soul inside matter, but, in the second case, cannot – even if his life depended upon it – “locate” the soul in order to embed it in the resurrected body?

It would appear that if God can competently do so in the first instance – where he must create the soul out of whole cloth, so to speak – then, surely, it would seem a far simpler matter to merely keep track of what he has already created ex nihilo, in the first instance, to replace that soul, which he has already succeeded in making, out of whole cloth, into a new and resurrected body.

If all else fails, why couldn’t he just exactly duplicate the initial soul – the soul from your first case – and place THAT SOUL into the resurrected body, since you admit that he CAN do that?

Why is God fully competent in the first case, but utterly incompetent in the second – especially since the second would appear to be a far easier task than the first, all things considered?

There is no reason to believe this dualistic view of God’s power – well, except for the peculiar reason of needing to make God fit the terms of your argument, I suppose.

 

[Peter_Plato]

8.As material things you can physically locate them. For example, I can point to a dog or, if I was a skilled enough neurosurgeon, I could open up the human brain and point to the idea of dog.
9.**A skilled neurosurgeon **could even point to the area of the brain where the idea of Dog is located that corresponds to the subconscious and where that idea would be located in the conscious part of the brain.

Ut, you do realize this – if true – could make a very good lead-in to a “Ben Carson for President” ad, yes?

---

By the way, this could take us into a discussion of quantum entanglement and the case against physicalism by some who argue for dual-aspect idealism such as…

youtu.be/rlBO0Y9GJhk

I suppose we have enough on our plates trying to locate them in areas where only skilled neurosurgeons dare to go, however.

 

[Bahman]

This is where your “argument,” essentially, falls apart.

Why, in the first case, does God have NO problem “embedding” the soul inside matter, but, in the second case, cannot – even if his life depended upon it – “locate” the soul in order to embed it in the resurrected body?

It would appear that if God can competently do so in the first instance – where he must create the soul out of whole cloth, so to speak – then, surely, it would seem a far simpler matter to merely keep track of what he has already created ex nihilo, in the first instance, to replace that soul, which he has already succeeded in making, out of whole cloth, into a new and resurrected body.

If all else fails, why couldn’t he just exactly duplicate the initial soul – the soul from your first case – and place THAT SOUL into the resurrected body, since you admit that he CAN do that?

Why is God fully competent in the first case, but utterly incompetent in the second – especially since the second would appear to be a far easier task than the first, all things considered?

There is no reason to believe this dualistic view of God’s power – well, except for the peculiar reason of needing to make God fit the terms of your argument, I suppose.

The creation of soul upon conception and resurrection suffer from the same problem, namely soul cannot be located in both case.

 

[Peter_Plato]

The creation of soul upon conception and resurrection suffer from the same problem, namely soul cannot be located in both case.

So you were arguing for eliminative materialism the whole time?

Then you definitely need to watch the video on The Case for the Soul that I linked to in my last post.

 

[utunumsint]

Ut, you do realize this – if true – could make a very good lead-in to a “Ben Carson for President” ad, yes?

---

By the way, this could take us into a discussion of quantum entanglement and the case against physicalism by some who argue for dual-aspect idealism such as…

youtu.be/rlBO0Y9GJhk

I suppose we have enough on our plates trying to locate them in areas where only skilled neurosurgeons dare to go, however.

Oh I agree. This could lead into many areas of discussion and debate. I certainly don’t agree with him that all reality is material. Right now I’m just trying to understand where Bahman is coming from. Maybe from there we can figure out why he thinks an immaterial thing must occupy a location in space.

From an A-T point of view, he is partially right. Most of the human soul is destroyed when the human body dies. Only the immaterial aspect of the human soul remains, which is the human intellect. The human being that was, however, is incomplete. What God does in the resurrection is provide us with new bodies. Our intellects get fused into this new material form providing us with new complete nature again.

God bless,
Ut

 

[Peter_Plato]

Oh I agree. This could lead into many areas of discussion and debate. I certainly don’t agree with him that all reality is material. Right now I’m just trying to understand where Bahman is coming from. Maybe from there we can figure out why he thinks an immaterial thing must occupy a location in space.

From an A-T point of view, he is partially right. Most of the human soul is destroyed when the human body dies. Only the immaterial aspect of the human soul remains, which is the human intellect. The human being that was, however, is incomplete. What God does in the resurrection is provide us with new bodies. Our intellects get fused into this new material form providing us with new complete nature again.

God bless,
Ut

I am on pins and needles waiting for Bahman’s response to your queries.

 

[Bahman]

Excellent. I think this conversation will go a lot more smoothly if folks can have an accurate understanding of where you are coming from. I’ll just add a few more points after 6 that came to mind. If you could confirm those as well, I would appreciate it.

1-Everything we experience can be divided into objects and ideas.
2-Ideas only exist in the mind.
3-The mind is divided into the subconscious and the conscious.
4-Only the conscious mind actually experiences ideas.
5-The conscious mind (I presume) either

• experiences ideas drawn from the subconscious.
• experiences ideas converted from sensory stimulus.

6-This conversion process from sensory stimuli to an idea is from one form to another form. Perhaps from the form Object to the form Idea?
7.Both objects and ideas are material things.
8.As material things you can physically locate them. For example, I can point to a dog or, if I was a skilled enough neurosurgeon, I could open up the human brain and point to the idea of dog.
9.A skilled neurosurgeon could even point to the area of the brain where the idea of Dog is located that corresponds to the subconscious and where that idea would be located in the conscious part of the brain.

Is this correct? I think I am correctly representing you on 7, but 8 and 9 are my extrapolations, so I may be going beyond what you would grant.

God bless,
Ut

Perfect.

 

[Bahman]

So you were arguing for eliminative materialism the whole time?

Then you definitely need to watch the video on The Case for the Soul that I linked to in my last post.

No, I am arguing against hylomorphic dualism.

 

[Richca]

If immaterial things like soul occupy any room and could be experienced directly then what is the point of giving it a body (embedding them inside matter)?

I did not say that the immaterial spiritual human soul occupies room or space. Spirits do not occupy space since they are immaterial spirits. However, this does not mean that spirits are not in a place as when the human soul is united with the body it is in the place where the body is. For example, presently I’m at my desk at the computer in California, I’m not in China somewhere. But spirits are not in place as being contained by the place but as somehow containing the place by contact of power. Angels and demonic spirits are also in place as for instance when Jesus drove out demons from possessed persons. These demons were in the person possessed and when Jesus drove them out, they went somewhere else as in the episode of the man possessed by Legion, the demons went out of the man into the pigs. Creatures have a finite being so even the angels are somewhere such as either in heaven or in their ministrations of the material universe. Only God is everywhere.

As far as the resurrection goes, it is obviously not beyond the power of God to reunite our souls to our bodies on the day of the resurrection as God created the entire universe of creatures out of nothing and He immediately creates every human soul in the conception of every human person. As each one of us is brought into existence by God when he unites our soul to our body, God can surely reunite the soul to our body again at the resurrection of the dead.