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CrossofChrist
Guest
What are your “proofs” or what convinces you the most about Jesus’ Divinity and Resurrection?
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hazcompat
Guest
Regina cæli, lætare, alleluia:
R. Quia quem meruisti portare, alleluia,
Resurrexit, sicut dixit, alleluia,
R. Ora pro nobis Deum, alleluia.
Gaude et lætare, Virgo Maria, alleluia.
R. Quia surrexit Dominus vere, alleluia.
Oremus.
Deus, qui per resurrectionem Filii tui, Domini nostri Iesu Christi,
mundum lætificare dignatus es:
præsta, quæsumus, ut per eius Genitricem Virginem Mariam,
perpetuæ capiamus gaudia vitæ.
Per eundem Christum Dominum nostrum. R. Amen.
Pax
R. Quia quem meruisti portare, alleluia,
Resurrexit, sicut dixit, alleluia,
R. Ora pro nobis Deum, alleluia.
Gaude et lætare, Virgo Maria, alleluia.
R. Quia surrexit Dominus vere, alleluia.
Oremus.
Deus, qui per resurrectionem Filii tui, Domini nostri Iesu Christi,
mundum lætificare dignatus es:
præsta, quæsumus, ut per eius Genitricem Virginem Mariam,
perpetuæ capiamus gaudia vitæ.
Per eundem Christum Dominum nostrum. R. Amen.
Pax
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hazcompat
Guest
Chapter XIX.—The resurrection possible.
And to any thoughtful person would anything appear more incredible, than, if we were not in the body, and some one were to say that it was possible that from a small drop of human seed bones and sinews and flesh be formed into a shape such as we see? For let this now be said hypothetically: if you yourselves were not such as you now are, and born of such parents [and causes], and one were to show you human seed and a picture of a man, and were to say with confidence that from such a substance such a being could be produced, would you believe before you saw the actual production? No one will dare to deny [that such a statement would surpass belief]. In the same way, then, you are now incredulous because you have never seen a dead man rise again. But as at first you would not have believed it possible that such persons could be produced from the small drop, and yet now you see them thus produced, so also judge ye that it is not impossible that the bodies of men, after they have been dissolved, and like seeds resolved into earth, should in God’s appointed time rise again and put on incorruption. For what power worthy of God those imagine who say, that each thing returns to that from which it was produced, and that beyond this not even God Himself can do anything, we are unable to conceive; but this we see clearly, that they would not have believed it possible that they could have become such and produced from such materials, as they now see both themselves and the whole world to be. And that it is better to believe even what is impossible to our own nature and to men, than to be unbelieving like the rest of the world, we have learned; for we know that our Master Jesus Christ said, that “what is impossible with men is possible with God,”18091809 Matt. xix. 26. and, “Fear not them that kill you, and after that can do no more; but fear Him who after death is able to cast both soul and body into hell.”18101810 Matt. x. 28. And hell is a place where those are to be punished who have lived wickedly, and who do not believe that those things which God has taught us by Christ will come to pass.
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.ii.xviii.html
And to any thoughtful person would anything appear more incredible, than, if we were not in the body, and some one were to say that it was possible that from a small drop of human seed bones and sinews and flesh be formed into a shape such as we see? For let this now be said hypothetically: if you yourselves were not such as you now are, and born of such parents [and causes], and one were to show you human seed and a picture of a man, and were to say with confidence that from such a substance such a being could be produced, would you believe before you saw the actual production? No one will dare to deny [that such a statement would surpass belief]. In the same way, then, you are now incredulous because you have never seen a dead man rise again. But as at first you would not have believed it possible that such persons could be produced from the small drop, and yet now you see them thus produced, so also judge ye that it is not impossible that the bodies of men, after they have been dissolved, and like seeds resolved into earth, should in God’s appointed time rise again and put on incorruption. For what power worthy of God those imagine who say, that each thing returns to that from which it was produced, and that beyond this not even God Himself can do anything, we are unable to conceive; but this we see clearly, that they would not have believed it possible that they could have become such and produced from such materials, as they now see both themselves and the whole world to be. And that it is better to believe even what is impossible to our own nature and to men, than to be unbelieving like the rest of the world, we have learned; for we know that our Master Jesus Christ said, that “what is impossible with men is possible with God,”18091809 Matt. xix. 26. and, “Fear not them that kill you, and after that can do no more; but fear Him who after death is able to cast both soul and body into hell.”18101810 Matt. x. 28. And hell is a place where those are to be punished who have lived wickedly, and who do not believe that those things which God has taught us by Christ will come to pass.
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.ii.xviii.html
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PennyinCanada
Guest
I know people who readily believe in UFO’s because some people saw some unexplained lights in the sky. The witnesses who saw Christ after His resurrection, or that they died for proclaiming this, isn’t good enough. The problem is a hardened heart.
Do you think a man like St Paul, who was on fire to get the Christians stoned for blasphemy, would do a 180?? Why? What did he have to gain, other than putting his own life in danger.
Why do I believe in Christ? I had a St Paul experience. Thanks be to God.
May God continue to soften hearts today, because of the witness of Catholics, their kindness, their support, their wisdom, that they share at work, at school, at the community club and baseball and hockey games. Unless their hearts are softened first, convincing arguments will be as effective as paper planes hitting a brick wall.
Do you think a man like St Paul, who was on fire to get the Christians stoned for blasphemy, would do a 180?? Why? What did he have to gain, other than putting his own life in danger.
Why do I believe in Christ? I had a St Paul experience. Thanks be to God.
May God continue to soften hearts today, because of the witness of Catholics, their kindness, their support, their wisdom, that they share at work, at school, at the community club and baseball and hockey games. Unless their hearts are softened first, convincing arguments will be as effective as paper planes hitting a brick wall.
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M1Garand
Guest
Without the resurrection then Jesus was no different from say Muhammad or Heaven’s Gate founder Marshall Applewhite, just another abject failure and probably raving lunatic like so many others.
Beyond the essential nature of the resurrection, however, is the change of the demeanor of the apostles after it happened. They went from cowering in the upper room to boldly going out and preaching the Good News of the man the Jews just executed for heresy. By doing this they all knew they would meet a similar fate yet did so despite earlier acts of cowardice. The Gospels clearly show that the apostles were really not sure who Jesus was before his resurrection(even Peter who’s acts during the passion showed a doubt he no longer had when Peter went to the cross). Thomas would not believe unless he touched Jesus for example. There was a clear shift that was instantaneous. More proof is the speed in which the faith went from being an outlaw religion to dominating the western world in less than 500 years. Lastly the Church has endured despite evil, war, slander, and Muslims. It will even survive Barrack Obama, modernist bishops and the American/European culture of new age death.
Beyond the essential nature of the resurrection, however, is the change of the demeanor of the apostles after it happened. They went from cowering in the upper room to boldly going out and preaching the Good News of the man the Jews just executed for heresy. By doing this they all knew they would meet a similar fate yet did so despite earlier acts of cowardice. The Gospels clearly show that the apostles were really not sure who Jesus was before his resurrection(even Peter who’s acts during the passion showed a doubt he no longer had when Peter went to the cross). Thomas would not believe unless he touched Jesus for example. There was a clear shift that was instantaneous. More proof is the speed in which the faith went from being an outlaw religion to dominating the western world in less than 500 years. Lastly the Church has endured despite evil, war, slander, and Muslims. It will even survive Barrack Obama, modernist bishops and the American/European culture of new age death.
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adawgj
Guest
From The Gospels.
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ClearWater
Guest
Well, I find it convincing that the witnesses of the major events were willing to undergo intense persecution and martyrdom. In some other faiths, they also were willing to undergo martyrdom, but generally, the difference at least to me is in some other faiths is they only rely on private revelation with no witnesses to the major events.
I also think had Jesus not been resurrected that they would have found the body. The Romans were excellent at getting to the bottom of matters, torturing you till you told the truth, normally torturing or killing you if you failed in your duty.
So, we are to believe that the soldiers failed in their duty to kill Christ? Had one failed, I am not even sure what the punishment for that would have even been. Death? Torture?
Further, what would the punishment have normally been for the soldiers assigned to the task of guarding the tomb failing in their task and “falling asleep”? Had they really believed that story, I think these soldiers would have been punished in some way.
Also, any evidence that ever does come up always supports the Bible. When we hear about how water and blood gushed out of Christ’s heart when it was pierced by the lance. Indeed, blood separates if just left like that, say, after death.
Further, we had the account of Jesus sweating blood. Scientists tell us that’s actually possible, that under very extreme duress, capillaries can break, and you can sweat blood.
Even Judas witnessed in his own way by committing suicide.
Further, how did these mostly uneducated folks manage to convince people to the point they were flocking to them…educated and uneducated alike if it was all a hoax?
What about all the miracles? It’s all enough to convince me, incredible as it all sounds.
I also think had Jesus not been resurrected that they would have found the body. The Romans were excellent at getting to the bottom of matters, torturing you till you told the truth, normally torturing or killing you if you failed in your duty.
So, we are to believe that the soldiers failed in their duty to kill Christ? Had one failed, I am not even sure what the punishment for that would have even been. Death? Torture?
Further, what would the punishment have normally been for the soldiers assigned to the task of guarding the tomb failing in their task and “falling asleep”? Had they really believed that story, I think these soldiers would have been punished in some way.
Also, any evidence that ever does come up always supports the Bible. When we hear about how water and blood gushed out of Christ’s heart when it was pierced by the lance. Indeed, blood separates if just left like that, say, after death.
Further, we had the account of Jesus sweating blood. Scientists tell us that’s actually possible, that under very extreme duress, capillaries can break, and you can sweat blood.
Even Judas witnessed in his own way by committing suicide.
Further, how did these mostly uneducated folks manage to convince people to the point they were flocking to them…educated and uneducated alike if it was all a hoax?
What about all the miracles? It’s all enough to convince me, incredible as it all sounds.
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CrossofChrist
Guest
It seems to me that those who don’t believe in the Resurrection (this is just me generalizing FYI) either believe that the Gospels are an exaggerated myth, or will just leave it at “Jesus was a good man” and not look at the problems associated with that statement.
Of course there are problems in saying the Gospels are an exaggerated myth when there is historical evidence for the Apostle’s deaths and courage.
So I guess to me it seems like one is left with whether the Apostles were willing to be societal outcasts, travel throughout the diaspora looking like fools, and die for a lie while making up “facts” around a lie that would be thought of as completely idiotic for the ancient world (e.g women having a prominent place in the salvation story), in addition to having been psychologically crushed from abandoning seeing their leader get crucified, or that they really did see a resurrected Jesus.
I don’t think the former option seems very rational.
Just my take. Looking forward to more posts.
Of course there are problems in saying the Gospels are an exaggerated myth when there is historical evidence for the Apostle’s deaths and courage.
So I guess to me it seems like one is left with whether the Apostles were willing to be societal outcasts, travel throughout the diaspora looking like fools, and die for a lie while making up “facts” around a lie that would be thought of as completely idiotic for the ancient world (e.g women having a prominent place in the salvation story), in addition to having been psychologically crushed from abandoning seeing their leader get crucified, or that they really did see a resurrected Jesus.
I don’t think the former option seems very rational.
Just my take. Looking forward to more posts.
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Servant19
Guest
Don’t you all think that the early persecutions of Christians were due to the strength and fortitude of Faith that they had?
How are the martyrdoms of these blessed souls any different to the martyrdoms of early Islamic or Bahai believers?
How are the martyrdoms of these blessed souls any different to the martyrdoms of early Islamic or Bahai believers?
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CrossofChrist
Guest
I’m sure that was a contributing factor.
Because they knew for a fact whether or not the Lord was truly risen. If he was, then his claim of being God was valid. If he wasn’t, then the Apostles are diabolical geniuses, which would be sort of odd considering half of them were regular fishermen.
That said, I’m not too familiar with the Bahai faith, so I’m not really qualified to comment.
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Kaninchen
Guest
For those of us who see the New Testament as pious fiction, the Apostles are just characters in a story.Because they knew for a fact whether or not the Lord was truly risen. If he was, then his claim of being God was valid. If he wasn’t, then the Apostles are diabolical geniuses, which would be sort of odd considering half of them were regular fishermen.
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CrossofChrist
Guest
I don’t doubt that.
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Kaninchen
Guest
The point being, of course, that saying that we think of them as ‘diabolical geniuses’, or whatever, is mistaken because they’re just characters in a story.
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vincent10395
Guest
reasonablefaith.org/the-resurrection-of-jesusWhat are your “proofs” or what convinces you the most about Jesus’ Divinity and Resurrection?
God Bless!
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CrossofChrist
Guest
I was addressing those who say the Jesus and the Apostles are historical figures and still don’t believe in Christ, not all nonChristians.
The idea that Jesus wasn’t real, though, seems contrary to historical evidence.
But I digress as this thread was supposed to be about why people believe in Christ, not why they don’t.
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Kaninchen
Guest
OK but just to point out that it’s quite possible for non-fictional people to appear in works of fiction.I was addressing those who say the Jesus and the Apostles are historical figures and still don’t believe in Christ, not all nonChristians.
The idea that Jesus wasn’t real, though, seems contrary to historical evidence.
But I digress as this thread was supposed to be about why people believe in Christ, not why they don’t.
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M1Garand
Guest
Of course that is what you “believe”–so how is your response on point? As a practical matter I guess the same can be said about Moses of whom there is no secular proof of his existence or Abraham, David, or Solomon. In fact I guess since we are conducting a diversionary exercise I guess it could be pointed out that the entire Tora and Septuagint could just be a giant “pious” made up work of dubious origin since they were not compiled until thousands of years after the alleged events. The many incarnations of Judaism could all be based on pagan practices like circumcision, in the past, animal sacrifice, purity laws, ect., none of which were original to Judaism so it could all just be a made up bronze age faith. Or are you one of those paradoxical so called atheist Jews in which case you would agree with my analogy?
See how it can all work.
As an aside if your “beliefs” were intellectually honest you would know that no legitimate biblical historian doubts the existence of the historical Jesus or his apostles. This includes the none agenda driven Jewish historians who have written some fine works on Jesus.
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Servant19
Guest
How therefore can ones Faith be built on a historicity with so many questions regarding its authenticity?
What is it that enables Catholics to cling onto the history as such an integral part of the Faith?
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M1Garand
Guest
It is an inherent failing of the Wester European and American mindset that we must intellectualize everything and attempt to turn everything into a pseudo scientific exercise.
I cannot speak for all Catholics but for me the history is icing on the cake for my faith. My faith is not based on history, science or intellectualization because I don’t believe God can be intellectualized. My faith is based on God’s exquisite revelation to me. He speaks to me, he compels me, he chastises me, he directs me. He has taught me that faith is not just belief but trust in his divine plan for me and my brothers in Christ and his plan of salvation for all humanity. I see his divine plan weave through my history like a fine golden thread. I have cried out for his salvation and he has heard me. The blood of the Lamb has washed me clean. I know that no matter how far I stray the Divine King will always show me mercy and save me.
Thank you for your sobering question my brother.
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Kliska
Guest
Two questions that are intimately connected. His resurrection is the focal point of faith, for if He did not come out of that tomb, our faith is in vain. My proofs:
- The facts contained in scripture.
- The facts contained in history.
As others have pointed out, the Apostles didn’t waiver on their fact claim even under torture. One thing modern people don’t seem to comprehend is there was no communication between the Apostles when they were spread out over thousands of miles. There was no reason for them to keep their mouths shut if they had concocted a lie because their fellow Apostles would never have to hear about their changed story, but it didn’t happen. They told the same gospel because it was Truth.
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