Resurrection? Why?

[simplynoone]

No, I am pretty sure that Maimonides’ and Rashi’s understandings of the resurrection and eternal life were exactly that, and not your understandings of resurrection. They knew those verses in Ecclesiastes for sure, but Maimonides made belief in the resurrection one of the core beliefs of Judaism in his 13 Principles, and by resurrection neither he nor Rashi, nor Nahmanides, nor the Besht for that matter, meant that death means returning to dust with no resurrection of self. In any event, I’ll have to check up on this tomorrow. My apologies. It’s late where I am.

May God Bless You! See you tomorrow.

First, please do not feel any need to apologize… I am enjoying this discussion with you despite our differing views. I have had to go look something up and in the process have learned some things my own self.

My question is this though: is there anywhere it speaks in their writings of a physical resurrection?.. because thus far, I haven’t seen it. Remember, they were living in times when the Jewish did not cater their speech. They were writing to the Jewish… a People who have no problem to question their own writings and their teachers.

I can say I believe in resurrection of the dead as well (but it would not be in the sense that you are speaking)… I just know better because of all the intermingling that has occurred in modern times. Thus, I make sure to speak with clarity (as best I can) so that others will not misinterpret what I mean (and when they do… I am quick to fix my intent).

Rabbis of today will be speaking to a Jewish crowd and they too, do not bother to clarify though if they were heard by Christians, there is much that would be misconstrued. Now, I do understand that there are Jews who believe in physical resurrection… but rarely do you see them bothering to discuss it because it is not their focus. THIS is Life and this is what counts… not what may or may not come after. If we are living our life now for reward and not in the honesty of our heart, then it is in vain even IF you were to be right… though there is nothing that should cause ANY to actually believe in something like the afterlife (logically speaking… after life = death) other than misinterpretations of the Tanakh (from a lack of true study by the “mouth” of God according to Prov 2:1-7) and then of course, the teachings of Christianity which should not be mistaken as anything close to Judaism.

There is no shortage of places in the Tanakh that make it clear that we return to the dust from whence we came and the spirit returns back to God from whom it came. Since it CAME from Him and you have no recollection of being in Him… well… get the point?

 

[KyivAndrew]

THIS is Life and this is what counts… not what may or may not come after. If we are living our life now for reward and not in the honesty of our heart, then it is in vain even IF you were to be right…

Simply I want to thank you for your honesty and also for the fact that your quick thinking and typing skills are now preventing me from leaving my keyboard and taking a badly needed nap

I think that the idea that Christians live now simply for Reward in the Afterlife and thus behave properly simply for reward is an overstatement. Don’t get me wrong, my best friend, a lapsed Catholic, always thought that this was the motivation behind his parents’ beliefs, but he was wrong, and I think he realized it. We behave ethically not out of hope for reward but because we have the law written on our hearts and know what is right, what is wrong, and that as we do to the least of our brethren we do to God.

We will disagree, but for me personally Catholic Theodicy makes more sense than Jewish Theodicy. A personal example: Last week I was a pall-bearer for a young man, a neighbor who lived with his parents all his life, never dated, never really had any happiness at all in 35 years on this earth… He suffered all his life…He was born with Severe Epilepsy, Deafness, and Physical Disabilities, all of which could not be treated properly. He cried a lot. Now, I believe that in him, I saw Christ and the work of God in that he did not suffer for nothing. He was created unique in God’s image as we all are. And when we buried him…He is not now turning to dust…I BELIEVE because my heart and head tell me that he is now in HEAVEN with God and his loved ones who passed away before him, and not in a metaphorical sense but in Reality. He is not now dust. His life was not in vain, but as a Catholic, he took up his cross and suffered as best he could, to help Christ in Redeeming the world and all of us souls here. Nothing I have ever read or thought leads me to believe otherwise… God Bless.

 

[simplynoone]

It is from Chabad, to which branch of Judaism some of my friends joined…

Ha! when you posted one of your verses with commentaries, I crossed my fingers in hope that it was somewhere online… that was the site I was led to. I did some looking around.

The late Rabbi Menachem Schneerson, (the Rebbe to his followers and founder of Chabad Lubavitch which proselytizes across the Jewish world to bring religion to “secular” Jews, and which leader commanded quite the presence in Judaism with such persons as Ariel Sharon making “pilgrimages” to visit him) probably studied the Holy Scriptures and Talmud as much if not more than you. Why do his religiously Jewish followers then proclaim: “The belief in a bodily resurrection appears, at first sight, to be incredible to the contemporary mind. But when approached from the God’s-eye view, why is rebirth more miraculous than birth?”

And Chabad proclaim on the veracity of resurrection: “Judaism has always stressed that the body, as the soul, is a gift of God–indeed, that it belongs to God. Ha’neshamah lach ve’haguf pa’alach, the Jew declared, “The soul is yours, and the body is your handiwork.” To care for the body is a religious command of the Bible. The practice of asceticism for religious purposes was tolerated, but the ascetic had to bring a sacrifice of atonement for his action. Resurrection affirms that the body is of value because it came from God, and it will be revived by God. Resurrection affirms that man’s empirical existence is valuable in God’s eyes. His activities in this world are significant in the scheme of eternity. His strivings are not to be deprecated as vain and useless, but are to be brought to fulfillment at the end of days.”

Now see? Don’t say we have nothing to discuss… this is an interesting view that I have not yet read (I only looked a bit at the site as I was in the middle of replying to you).

Here is my problem with it. I just recently heard an AWFUL account of a plane that was hijacked muslims on its way to Cairo because there were Israelis aboard. They forced a landing in Malta at which time they allowed a few of the passengers to go (in order for their statement to be made is all any one can guess). Then they called an Israeli woman to the front… she went without hesitation… of course, she assumed that she was being let off free of harm… this is not the plan in mind of the killers though. The one standing next to the exit pulled out a gun as she reached him and he shot her point blank in the head and then threw her violently down the stairs as though she was nothing more than a piece of trash… she landed on the ground with sickening force. The next Israeli woman to be called fought, screamed, and kicked (would have done the same myself… this is life and it was being stolen & discarded in a horrific manner )… she was dealt almost the same fate… though when she landed on the hard cement, she started moving… that’s right, she was still alive… the other passenger who made it through the ordeal alive said that she and others were begging her under their breath to play “dead”… because sure enough, the cold blooded killer noticed and walked down to finish her off with more than one bullet to her body…

I SAY THIS TO ASK: what about these cases? If you want to base physical resurrection on the account of Jesus, Jesus still had his wounds and apparently according to what you state above, well… these Israeli women will be resurrecting in horrific condition… what do you have to say about such cases?

Yes, I can go ask those Jews on that site who believe in such a resurrection as the physical, but I trust that you have a mind that can carry on its own thoughts, no? What do you say about such cases as I have stated when it comes to physical resurrection?

I am genuinely curious because this is one of the fabric seams that is ripped in the theory of resurrecting physically after death. Again, Jesus was supposedly resurrected with his wounds still a part of his body… Thomas did touch the wounds no? I hope you see this as a valid question and not me trying to be patronizing (it most definitely is not the latter).

To take care of oneself is to contribute to a longer lifespan… at least we can hope… unfortunately, there is much being allowed to slip since so many are banking on a rescue rather than taking back what it is that belongs to ALL people… this earth and life in general.

 

[KyivAndrew]

I SAY THIS TO ASK: what about these cases? If you want to base physical resurrection on the account of Jesus, Jesus still had his wounds and apparently according to what you state above, well… these Israeli women will be resurrecting in horrific condition… what do you have to say about such cases?

I think in all honesty our Christian belief would hold that with God All Things Are Possible and that if we say an injured person would be resurrected in horrific condition, we are limiting God. The handicapped (pardon the term) person, the one missing one arm is not limited in the next life but is a full person in his or her resurrection body). God, who created you and me, can resurrect as He sees. I think also the resurrected body is not like our 3-dimensional physical body here on earth but is of an entire different nature. This also raises the point that I ran into somewhere else on this thread or another posted by a person of Jewish faith (maybe you?) that to live eternally would be so boring, the same over and over. I think this also is a misunderstanding of eternal life. Eternity is beyond time. There is no time. Somebody described it as the Eternal Now. We can only describe it here, but any worldly description would not do it justice.

With Christ’s wounds…We believe that Christ ascended up to Heaven 40 days after His Death (hence, his resurrection body here on earth with His wounds in the time He spent with His Apostles and followers).

N.T. Wright, an Anglican bishop, has studied Jewish and Christian beliefs on resurrection meticulously. He studied all possible explanations against Jesus’ resurrection from resuscitation to fabrications and found that the only possible explanation for what happened was that Jesus truly rose from the dead. Tom Wright concludes: "What we find, rather, is the universal early Christian claim that Jesus had gone, as it were, through death and out the other side, that he was not just in some intermediate state or wine disembodied existence, but that his body had been transformed m a way for which they, his followers, had been quite unprepared, but with which they had had to come co terms. And they gave this as the reason why they believed his kingdom-announcement had indeed reached its climax, its fulfillment, in his death and resurrection. They gave this as the reason why they continued to regard him as Messiah despite his shameful death. They gave this as the reason for saying that “the resurrection” had in principle already happened. What is more, they wove this belief so firmly into their theology, their praxis, their stories, aid their symbols that (unless we are prepared to stop writing history and start writing fantasy instead) we cannot envisage their communal life without it.

I propose, therefore, as the result of this broad-canvas treatment of second- Temple Judaism and early Christianity, that there is in fact no other solution to the historical problem than to conclude that something remarkable had happened to the body of Jesus."

Simply, here is the link to Wright’s article on his web page, and he also has other articles on resurrection beliefs, Jewish and Christian. If you have the time, have a look. ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Jesus_Resurrection.htm

I am interested immensely in Jewish history because I firmly believe that God’s Divine Spark touched the Jewish people, and that no other people under the sun could have withstood the oppression they suffered throughout their history. I wonder, however, to you as a believing Jew, our beliefs play no role in your religion’s relationship with God: hence, may I ask what interests you personally in testing or arguing against Christian beliefs? Hope not being too personal or that I have offended you. I’m off to a movie now anyway, so answer anytime if you wish. God Bless!

 

[simplynoone]

Simply I want to thank you for your honesty and also for the fact that your quick thinking and typing skills are now preventing me from leaving my keyboard and taking a badly needed nap

The quick thinking though in this case is only coming from my having given it a lot of honest thought and study my own self. The typing… well, I had better be quick for it is how I earn a living.

I think that the idea that Christians live now simply for Reward in the Afterlife and thus behave properly simply for reward is an overstatement. Don’t get me wrong, my best friend, a lapsed Catholic, always thought that this was the motivation behind his parents’ beliefs, but he was wrong, and I think he realized it. We behave ethically not out of hope for reward but because we have the law written on our hearts and know what is right, what is wrong, and that as we do to the least of our brethren we do to God.

I was raised with this same thinking… the afterlife. In the end, I am glad for it gave me the chance to KNOW that I was living my life in honesty. At the beginning of 2008 after many years of struggling with trying to fit into a religion that just did not make sense to me, christianity, I tossed out all belief and cried out to whoever was listening (though, it was only me in my own home … making the declaration to anything or nothing at that point) that I was FINISHED believing in ANYTHING that was not proved to be Truth to me, even if that meant hell… and at that time, I had the Christian view. I said out loud that I would rather burn physically for all of eternity for being honest than live the rest of my life trying to make pieces fit that DID NOT fit. “So be it” was my new answer to those who said if I didn’t buy into something on nothing but feelings and faith, I would go to hell. I found freedom… freedom to do good… I found my judgments started changing… I found Truth… and then, I started seeing that it is written in the Tanakh… just that I could never see it before due to trying to force pieces into a perceived truth rather than actually discarding those which couldn’t be fit into Truth based on regarding the works of God… and God ALWAYS will work within the Laws of Nature that He established. He did call it good, right?

The card up “His sleeve”? Time and our having a working mind to SEEK out the Truth… based on rationalization. He is not bound to Time, but that we are is to His and OUR advantage in order for us to gain Wisdom… if our mind is truly seeking Truth, that is.

I BELIEVE because my heart and head tell me that he is now in HEAVEN with God and his loved ones who passed away before him, and not in a metaphorical sense but in Reality.

Believe it or not… I can understand what you are saying here. And this has been the biggest struggle for me in facing the Truth about Life… thinking about those who have suffered the whole of their life or those who have done that which is right from genuiness and then died horribly…

But is like this… this is not OUR life technically… this is the work of God. I can not testify to anything but THIS experience and this experience testifies to the written Word that says our bodies return to dust and truly, when we die, the spirit returns to God who GAVE IT TO US. The hardest thing for me to remember is to be THANKFUL for my OWN life no matter how difficult it may seem at times (and trust me, I know suffering more than I will speak about)… and to also remember that another’s life experiences followed by death being unfair is not mine to cast judgment on God as though I could consider Him evil for how it is He established the life process. It is good, His works. I can not believe something based only on feelings else I am judging God on MY PERCEIVED truths that stem from nothing more than what I “feel” is right and/or wrong. Either His way as we can know it is good or it is not… AS IT IS.

If your friend died after his life of suffering (of which he is not the only to have endured such) and truly his body returned to dust and his spirit given to him by God returned to God and it is as testified in Ecclesiastes, “Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest” … that being, this is Life for us… what then do you say of God? You say your heart testifies to life after because of your sympathy and/or empathy… so, if it does not exist as you are hoping, then what? Is God good or bad because you decided to believe something based on feelings rather than knowledge?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I SAY THIS TO ASK: what about these cases? If you want to base physical resurrection on the account of Jesus, Jesus still had his wounds and apparently according to what you state above, well… these Israeli women will be resurrecting in horrific condition… what do you have to say about such cases? I am genuinely curious because this is one of the fabric seams that is ripped in the theory of resurrecting physically after death. Again, Jesus was supposedly resurrected with his wounds still a part of his body… Thomas did touch the wounds no? I hope you see this as a valid question and not me trying to be patronizing (it most definitely is not the latter).

Hello, simplynoone
Jesus is the only one that will have scars of His wounds in His physical body after resurrection. This will be as a reminder of the awful nature of sin and will be carried down the ages of eternity. Those who are raised to eternal life in Christ the bible tells us will be changed 1Cor15:51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So you can rest easy. If those women died with the law written on there minds and in their hearts. They will be raised incorruptible

 

[KyivAndrew]

“So be it” was my new answer to those who said if I didn’t buy into something on nothing but feelings and faith, I would go to hell.

Well, whoever told you that was wrong. Not even the Church can say authoritatively who goes to hell, and it does not proclaim that any one person will go to hell because only God knows the heart in the end. Is that what may have pointed you against an afterlife? The possibility of hell?
p.s. movie did not pan out, but if you are marking Sabbath, good.

 

[KyivAndrew]

so, if it does not exist as you are hoping, then what? Is God good or bad because you decided to believe something based on feelings rather than knowledge?

Well, if it does not exist, you have heard of Pascal’s wager, have you not?

And no, my belief in Jesus Christ and the Church is actually not based solely or mostly on feelings. I have read earnestly all my life on it, including looking at other religions, Hinduism, Buddhism, to see if they had the truth to them on religion and the meaning of life. I always came back to Catholicism on logical grounds.

I’ve read far too many works to remember: C.S. Lewis of course, Chesterton, Paul Johnson, Malcolm Muggeridge, Tom Wright, Luke Timothy Johnson, Father Raymond Brown, E.P Sanders, Balthasar, The Popes, Saints, liberals like Hans Kung, the works. If this does not count as some knowledge, then I do not know what does (and I still am aware of my ignorance).

Thus, I feel assured that my faith is not feelings-based, hooray-based. I am actually willing to change my viewpoint if someone convinces me I am wrong in a certain precept. I’m open-minded but have found myself pretty well-based.

I was first introduced to Judaism as a young one by reading Catholic Conservative Paul Johnson’s A History of the Jews. Though an ardent Catholic, Johnson remains a great friend to the Jewish people. Even Norman Podhoretz, the Jewish editor-at-large of the reputable journal Commentary wrote a glowing review of Johnson’s personal testament The Quest for God in Commentary, stating he (Podhoretz) had no problems with Johnson specifically keeping a red-blooded Spanish crucifix in his study to remind himself of Christ’s suffering.

A recent publication which I found fascinating on the 20th Century because of my interest in history is Yuri Slezkine’s The Jewish Century. I don’t agree with all his theses (and some Jews do not) but it makes for fascinating reading.

Hope this clarifies.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I was raised with this same thinking… the afterlife. In the end, I am glad for it gave me the chance to KNOW that I was living my life in honesty.

Sorry to butt in. You two seem to be having such an up front honest discussion. I almost hate to butt in, But this is a forum and there are a few things in your post that I would like to address. In the above quote you say “in the end”. I don’t think that you are saying that you are dying. So it must mean that you have stopped searching. I truly hope and pray that this is not the case, because I think that you are very close.

making the declaration to anything or nothing at that point) that I was FINISHED believing in ANYTHING that was not proved to be Truth to me, even if that meant hell… and at that time, I had the Christian view. I said out loud that I would rather burn physically for all of eternity for being honest than live the rest of my life trying to make pieces fit that DID NOT fit…

If as you seem to be saying here that you are purging your life of all faith, why would you beleive in an eternally burning hell, especially since the bible doesn’t teach it. I’m thinking this may be one of the pieces that doesn’t fit.1 John 4:8 says: He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. Let me ask you. Would a God that is love torture His beloved creatures for all eternity? Also Rev21:4 says: And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.This statement cannot be true with an eternally burning hell.

“So be it” was my new answer to those who said if I didn’t buy into something on nothing but feelings and faith, I would go to hell. I found freedom… freedom to do good… I found my judgments started changing… I found Truth… and then, I started seeing that it is written in the Tanakh… just that I could never see it before due to trying to force pieces into a perceived truth rather than actually discarding those which couldn’t be fit into Truth based on regarding the works of God

I’m thinking that the truth that you found was not truth at all but I’ll reserve judgment until, if you would be so kind, as to relate what it was that you found written in the Tanakh

He did call it good, right?

He certainly did call it good’ but that was before the fall.

The card up “His sleeve”? Time and our having a working mind to SEEK out the Truth… based on rationalization. He is not bound to Time, but that we are is to His and OUR advantage in order for us to gain Wisdom… if our mind is truly seeking Truth, that is.

John 14: 6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Could it be that the truth you seem to be so earnestly seeking is just one faith step away?

I BELIEVE because my heart and head tell me that he is now in HEAVEN with God and his loved ones who passed away before him, and not in a metaphorical sense but in Reality.

Believe it or not… I can understand what you are saying here. And this has been the biggest struggle for me in facing the Truth about Life… thinking about those who have suffered the whole of their life or those who have done that which is right from genuiness and then died horribly…

I think both of you have a misunderstanding of what the state of the dead is. Jesus calls it sleep John 11:11These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
When we die we sleep in the gave until the resurrection.

But is like this… this is not OUR life technically… this is the work of God. I can not testify to anything but THIS experience and this experience testifies to the written Word that says our bodies return to dust and truly, when we die, the spirit returns to God who GAVE IT TO US.

This certainly is true we do return to the earth, but the good news of the gospel is that it doesn’t end there. Because of what He did on Calvary’s Cross, we can live forever.
John 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

]If your friend died after his life of suffering (of which he is not the only to have endured such) and truly his body returned to dust and his spirit given to him by God returned to God and it is as testified

in Ecclesiastes,

Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Job 21:32 Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.
Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
Psa 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise [and] praise thee? Selah.

How does one reconcile these verses with eternal life? The answer of course is Jesus.

 

[simplynoone]

So it must mean that you have stopped searching.

**Nope… haven’t stopped searching, but as to this end, it is true that thus far I am unconvinced in a physical resurrection… until I am able to see it in such a way as to regard it the working of God’s “hands.” I have to say that it is does not testify to what we know (thus far) as being established by God from the beginning. **

Still, though, I don’t find it a waste of time or topic to discuss, for contrary to what you say, I am always learning… I have learned throughout my discussions on this thread.** Anytime we can question our own beliefs is an opportunity to learn… this truth I have come to know by experience. It is only one of the reasons that I found the minds of other Jewish persons to be like “home”… questioning is not only allowed, but encouraged with enthusiasm. **

If as you seem to be saying here that you are purging your life of all faith, I am.

why would you beleive in an eternally burning hell, especially since the bible doesn’t teach it. **I don’t… I do believe in “hell”… but not Christianity’s view of it… I have walked through it my own self. It is the fire… mentioned in Zechariah, to name one place. However, I did find the Christian view hard to shake… after all, it was put into my head from before even my first memories. **

I’m thinking this may be one of the pieces that doesn’t fit.1 John 4:8 says: He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. Let me ask you. Would a God that is love torture His beloved creatures for all eternity? hmm… guessing you came into the discussion in the last few pages?? That’s okay. I have clearly stated in this thread I do not believe that we live eternally. That is only God who is Eternal Life. Thus, you have only caught a portion of the discussion… I do not believe in a person dying and going to hell… only that I found the view hard to shake after having been taught the idea for so long, even though I have always questioned such a thing.

I’m thinking that the truth that you found was not truth at all but I’ll reserve judgment until, if you would be so kind, as to relate what it was that you found written in the Tanakh

Sure… words that actually speak to Life rather than mythologies.

He certainly did call it good’ but that was before the fall.

And His judgments to them show that He didn’t consider the fall a bad thing as well… but rather, it seems to me He was quite expecting it, no? Maybe even thought it was good? Or do you think He made a mistake… if He gave us free will, for it to be truly free, He had to give it a 50/50 chance either way, no? Thus, I am 100% confident that He created with Wisdom and not based on yours and others judgments of Him.

Could it be that the truth you seem to be so earnestly seeking is just one faith step away?

**I cannot settle for blind faith. It would be a blatant denial of what I have been given inherently… a mind for thinking rationally. **

When we die we sleep in the gave until the resurrection.

see the Proverbs 6: 4-11… time to wake up, no? this, above, is only lazy thinking on your part to assume something you do not know; but rather accept based on blind faith.

This certainly is true we do return to the earth, but the good news of the gospel is that it doesn’t end there. Because of what He did on Calvary’s Cross, we can live forever.
John 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

**Okay, baby steps here… Read Exodus 4:22,23; next Jeremiah 31:35-36; now read John 3:17… a bit more of an accurate picture might emerge. DO NOT MISTAKE Jesus as the solo of who it is declared in Exodus… just rather one of speaking as a prophet. **

Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Job 21:32 Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.
Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
Psa 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise [and] praise thee? Selah.

How does one reconcile these verses with eternal life? The answer of course is Jesus

that God would be a respector of persons who blindly put faith in what is blatantly against the words of the Tanakh is a serious accusation, no? Jeremiah 17:5 or Psalm 28:3-5 only being TWO examples…

I just have not in me the desire or mind to believe in mythologies…

 

[robsully]

Hello again.

Thank you Simplenoone for your comments and insight. I see Judaism not only as a religion but as a family, one which I’m not part of but still welcome to sit at the table.

Christians I would like to reconcile the Christian Resurrection story. I’m unable to " wrap my head around" the logic. My questions and request pending.

During a religous studies course it was put to us that everlasting life had more to do with what we leave behind before we die than where we are going after death.

I do not require biblical quotes, just basic logical explanation.

Thank you for your time and patience

 

[Dokimas]

*Luke 16:19-31 Particularly the last verse which says, “And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets (the Law and testimonies Isaiah 8:20), neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.”

Also, consider Amos 3:7, “Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets”

I am a HUGE fan of the Law of God and I must admit that I see very little of it is regarded in Catholism. Now, remember that the Law of God is NOT just the Mosaic Law but the Natural Laws as well… after, God is the Creator, no?

So… here, even in the NT by Jesus’ own admission, man has all they need in the Law of God (which includes the Natural Laws) and in the testimonies to see the Truth.

Jesus admits in the above parable that a man coming to life would do no good… so what is the point that so many think he, Jesus, did actually raise from being 3 days/nights in the tomb? Where is he? 2,000 years and what is it that you have learned from all of this? Anything? If you still believe in the supernatural resurrection of Jesus, why? Again, to what benefit is it to you?

Thanks for any who are willing to help me understand this perspective that I just can not seem to grasp! *

The prophets, Mose, the Law and the Tabernacle all points to Jesus. IMO, Jesus was sayinging that those who are blinded to the truth will not be persuaded by a miracle.​

In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul says the resurrection of Jesus is what separates Christianity from all other religions.​

The resurrection proved Jesus was not a liar (He predicted it). It proved He had the power over our sin and over death. The resurrection of Jesus prove He had power over the devil. The resurrection of Jesus is our way to the abundant life He promised us. The resurrection of Jesus fulfilled the OT.​

The resurrection of Jesus means we too, by faith in Him, can live forever with Him in Heaven.​

Praise God for our resurrected Savior.

 

[simplynoone]

Jesus did point to the Holy Spirit in John 14-16 as one to come. If one believes what Jesus said to be accurate, then it can be believed that the writers of the rest of the New Testament were being taught, reminded and otherwise led by the Holy Spirit. Paul even writes in one or two places that some advice he is giving is not from the Spirit, but that it is just from Paul.

Isaiah 45:11-19 Read that passage, if you do not mind, and then please post your thoughts of it in regards to what you said above keeping in mind several things:

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**1. John 4:24, God is spirit; 2. Hosea 11:9 God is not a man; 3. Isaiah 49:3,6 Israel is the Servant who is the Light to the Gentiles; 4. Jer 17:5 **

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In Jeremiah 17: 9-10… How is it that one is judged in honesty of their heart? How is it that the LORD can draw it out? I am curious… your thoughts on all this?

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To say Jesus only pointed to the Hebrew Scriptures is fairly reductionistic.

He said that his teachings would be confirmed there… I assume that it has to do with the following verses: Matthew 24:4-5, 24 … of course, if we go to the Hebrew Scriptures, we find the same warning and how to know what it is our heart desires to know. (KEY WORDS : our hearts’ desires) Deut 13; Prov 2:1-7

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By the way… verse 5 is in first person… in other words, he is clearly stating that many will come and claim that he, Jesus, is the Christ (“anointed”)… The Tanakh states who it is THE Anointed One is. Thus, another reason why he had to confirm where it is HIS teachings would be confirmed, Matthew 5:17-19

God cannot be put into a box and labeled. Legalistic, reductionist, rule loving religious types are not the sort of people who are really interested in God in the first place. They like religion because religion can provide a myriad of rules and regulation by which they can control their lives and control how they relate to God… Many of them even attempt to control how God responds to them and they treat their religious behavior as a bargaining chip, or tool for manipulating their way into God’s good books.

**And who is it you claim to be doing this? What “religious” people are you speaking of? **

I think the basic problem with our communications and similar confusion you will likely find in Christian forums is that we are not starting from the same assumptions about who Jesus is, how God desires to interact with us, what scripture is and what the basic response should be to the life, teachings, death and resurrection of Jesus.

**Psalm 28:3-5; Jeremiah 51:15-19… the reason for the confusion is because the works of His “hands” are not being regarded but rather replaced because a people, the Gentiles, have rather chosen to believe in a man over the counsel of the LORD. **

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Have an excellent day!
SW

**Thank you. The same to you as well. **

 

[simplynoone]

but clearly are not, but America is not a Christian country.

**The founding fathers did not intend it to be, but that is what it has become for it is Christianity that politicians claim to be (for purpose … not Islam). And it is quite scary indeed… that there is a melting pot of cultures, religions, etc only is showing the poison that Christianity/false morality really is in its quest for world domination. Same with Islam in its denial of nature and free will, as is evidenced in their dominated region of the world. Neither wants the other to win the domination and neither can see the poison they are infecting the world with. Open your eyes to the Light (Isaiah 49:3,6) and perhaps it will start to dawn on those inside either of these generic world religions who claim “they” are the good people due to their perceived sacrifice(s). **

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Read the verse below:

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[simplynoone]

I think in all honesty our Christian belief would hold that with God All Things Are Possible and that if we say an injured person would be resurrected in horrific condition, we are limiting God. The handicapped (pardon the term) person, the one missing one arm is not limited in the next life but is a full person in his or her resurrection body). God, who created you and me, can resurrect as He sees. I think also the resurrected body is not like our 3-dimensional physical body here on earth but is of an entire different nature. This also raises the point that I ran into somewhere else on this thread or another posted by a person of Jewish faith (maybe you?) that to live eternally would be so boring, the same over and over. I think this also is a misunderstanding of eternal life. Eternity is beyond time. There is no time. Somebody described it as the Eternal Now. We can only describe it here, but any worldly description would not do it justice.

I think I said that to live eternity in regards to the Christian view would be boring. To have only one way of thinking and nothing of real purpose… no thank you!!

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To live eternally though is not something we have… we are born, we live, and then we die. This may not be acceptable to most, but it is what we can regard as being Natural… established by God. To say it is not good and to make modifications is to disregard the works of His “hands.” Psalm 28:3-5 (have you even read this passage I am posting again and again with purpose?)

With Christ’s wounds…We believe that Christ ascended up to Heaven 40 days after His Death (hence, his resurrection body here on earth with His wounds in the time He spent with His Apostles and followers).

N.T. Wright, an Anglican bishop, has studied Jewish and Christian beliefs on resurrection meticulously. He studied all possible explanations against Jesus’ resurrection from resuscitation to fabrications and found that the only possible explanation for what happened was that Jesus truly rose from the dead.

**Nobody has studied the resurrection as it is being claimed because there is nothing in the realm of reality to study. All anyone has done is misinterpret the resurrection spoken of in the Tanakh (resurrection of personal awareness and/or resurrection of Israel to their Land) and then studied each others mythological view points. That is not studying the resurrection, that is studying man’s words. **

%between%
may I ask what interests you personally in testing or arguing against Christian beliefs? Hope not being too personal or that I have offended you.

**I am not at all offended by your questioning. I speak the way I do because I know it first hand. It is something that a person HAS to accept on the basis of another man’s word as there is nothing in what God has established to testify to its authenticity. Christianity’s beliefs are studies of mythologies and not Truth. **

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**Example: Physical Resurrection of the Dead… Proof it is part of God’s way? Do you have that other than what is written by man? Everyone MUST admit that it is based on hearsay and those who believe it MUST admit that they are believing in man’s words. The whole of the Bible is written by man. The Tanakh is like a treasure chest full of valuable treasures. It would be pointless if the key was locked inside with the valuable treasures, no? The key is something that has to be on the outside of the words written and can be known by us inherently. Proverbs 2:1-7 God established the Natural Law for a reason and as well as we were given the ability to rationalize. **

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Jesus said those who know God worship Him in spirit AND IN TRUTH.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Hey Lady where did you come from. I was getting involved in another thread and now I see your fingers are busy at work. (I cannot, repeat, cannot keep up with your typing and thinking, especially since I type proper English not American so that every time I type the proper British/Canadian “favour” “honour” I still get flustered at the red squigglies telling me it’s favor and honor. Have a good Sabbath? O.K. I see where you are coming from.

I cannot see how I can convince you otherwise, so you’ll forgive me, I’m off to another thread and then there’s something else I am supposed to do soon …hmmm… oh yeah, silly me…SLEEP. I get riled up on this forum and then I can’t sleep. Heeh! I do enjoy reading your posts though and seeing where you are coming from. God Bless!

Andrew.

 

[ryanoneil]

Hi simply. Here is a reading from this Sundays liturgy. I don’t believe this is in your cannon because it is from the Greek Septuagint. I thought I’d share these verses in case you were not aware. You can read the larger context on the links. The next chapters are good also.

usccb.org/nab/bible/wisdom/wisdom1.htm

Court not death by your erring way of life, nor draw to yourselves destruction by the works of your hands. Because God did not make death, nor does he rejoice in the destruction of the living. For he fashioned all things that they might have being; and the creatures of the world are wholesome, And there is not a destructive drug among them nor any domain of the nether world on earth, For justice is undying. It was the wicked who with hands and words invited death, considered it a friend, and pined for it, and made a covenant with it, Because they deserve to be in its possession, (Wisdom 1:12-15)

usccb.org/nab/bible/wisdom/wisdom2.htm

For God formed man to be imperishable; the image of his own nature he made him. But by the envy of the devil, death entered the world, and they who are in his possession experience it. (Wisdom 2:23-24)

usccb.org/nab/bible/wisdom/wisdom3.htm

But the souls of the just are in the hand of God, and no torment shall touch them. They seemed, in the view of the foolish, to be dead; and their passing away was thought an affliction and their going forth from us, utter destruction. But they are in peace. For if before men, indeed, they be punished, yet is their hope full of immortality; Chastised a little, they shall be greatly blessed, because God tried them and found them worthy of himself. As gold in the furnace, he proved them, and as sacrificial offerings he took them to himself. In the time of their visitation they shall shine, and shall dart about as sparks through stubble; They shall judge nations and rule over peoples, and the LORD shall be their King forever. (Wisdom 3:1-8)

Peace

 

[simplynoone]

But the souls of the just are in the hand of God, and no torment shall touch them. They seemed, in the view of the foolish, to be dead; and their passing away was thought an affliction and their going forth from us, utter destruction. But they are in peace. For if before men, indeed, they be punished, yet is their hope full of immortality; Chastised a little, they shall be greatly blessed, because God tried them and found them worthy of himself. As gold in the furnace, he proved them, and as sacrificial offerings he took them to himself. In the time of their visitation they shall shine, and shall dart about as sparks through stubble; They shall judge nations and rule over peoples, and the LORD shall be their King forever. (Wisdom 3:1-8)

Peace

Hello ryanoneil. You know what? I have read this book many times over for I find very profound Truths in it. I quoted the last one because it has always been one of my favorite parts in the Book of Wisdom.

If this is to be applied to the Tanakh, though, then clearly it is speaking of Israel. I color coded the corresponding references for the convenience of all those reading.

Jeremiah 33:

24Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families (Jer 31:31) which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them.
25Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; 26Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.

In other words, if the natural Laws give way to utter destruction, then only will the covenant given in Jeremiah 31 with the two families choses be broken.

Jeremiah 30:
10Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
11For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet I will not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

Deuteronomy also speaks of this.

Daniel 12:
1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Now, please, use some rational thinking (as I can see you do possess this wonderful ability) that this, Daniel 12, is speaking of Nations (not individuals) and the one that will be raised to everlasting life is Israel. Egypt is among the nations given to shame and everlasting contempt (to name only one). The Book of Life is the Tanakh, ya know.

 

[simplynoone]

Hello, simplynoone
Jesus is the only one that will have scars of His wounds in His physical body after resurrection. This will be as a reminder of the awful nature of sin and will be carried down the ages of eternity. Those who are raised to eternal life in Christ the bible tells us will be changed 1Cor15:51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So you can rest easy. If those women died with the law written on there minds and in their hearts. They will be raised incorruptible

Please, just tell me how it is that your thoughts here and the quote of Paul’s that you use is regarding the work of God’s “hands.” Psalm 28:3-5

 

[simplynoone]

Well, whoever told you that was wrong. Not even the Church can say authoritatively who goes to hell, and it does not proclaim that any one person will go to hell because only God knows the heart in the end. Is that what may have pointed you against an afterlife? The possibility of hell?
p.s. movie did not pan out, but if you are marking Sabbath, good.

I can 100% say that I have been through “hell” according to how it is spoken of in not only Zechariah 13:8-9 but also through the conceptual metaphor given in Daniel… the 3 men thrown into the fire and the fourth who appeared in the flames… the Son of Man… that would be the testimonies… the Lord GOD knows that if it had not been for His Word, I would not have been delivered from hell, but surely would have perished my own self.

That is the understanding that I have been given of what hell is. It is to be put through the flames of experience… and if it is not for the Word that gives Wisdom, then truly it is in vain and those that die without, were already dead.

By the way, this is the first Sabbath in quite some time that I have actually been able to observe fully from start to finish. I am a single mother who only has 2 full days a month to herself to get things accomplished… unfortunately, yet fortunately too, I had no choice but to put off responsibilities… and I am quite glad that I was able to not have the choice as it gave me the opportunity to rest (whew) without guilt.

And I am starting to think that some on here, including you, may have the impression that I am Jewish… I am not… yet. I believe that conversion must be done with one’s whole heart and this means abiding by Deut 30:14. If it is not within my reach, then there is a reason. As hard as it is, I do not believe in causing others in my life extra stress just to fulfill the OVERWHELMING desires of my own heart. So, I wait… and in the meantime, I speak to what I know… and that is the Jewish mentality.