Revelations...are we ready...

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Tommy, here is more evidence that Christ was and is Lord. While I would love to get into the whole issue of Revelations with you, I have to refrain from such lengthy topics. We have already experienced one power outage due to the hurricane to the west of us, and could run into more at any time. Besides, my head hurts too much to think right now! :whacky:

42In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. Luke 42-44
“[T]he Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God” (John 5:18).

“Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men” (Philippians 2:6b-7).
 
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tommy1234:
Is Mary, the Mother of God or the Mother of Jesus? I thought God was the Alpha and the Omega.
We know Mary is the Mother of Jesus. The question is not about Mary really now is it…it’s about Jesus. Was Jesus God?

It is interesting that you acknowledge God as the Alpha and Omega. Referring, I would assume, to Old Testament passages that apply the title to God: “Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’” (Is. 44:6; cf. 41:4, 48:12).

This title is directly applied to Jesus three times in the book of Revelation:
“When I saw him [Christ], I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the First and the Last’” (Rev. 1:17).

“And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life’” (Rev. 2:8).

“Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end” (Rev. 22:12-13).
This last quote is especially significant since it applies to Jesus the parallel title “the Alpha and the Omega,” which Revelation earlier applied to the Lord God: “‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty” (Rev. 1:8).

That ought to be enough in and of itself, but we also have so much more. In John 5:18 we are told that Jesus’ opponents sought to kill him because he “called God his Father, making himself equal with God.”

In John 8:58, when quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am” - invoking and applying to himself the personal name of God - “I Am” (Ex. 3:14). His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. “So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple” (John 8:59).

In John 20:28, Thomas falls at Jesus’ feet, exclaiming, “My Lord and my God!” (Greek: Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mou - literally, “The Lord of me and the God of me!”)

Now all that being said, and from Scripture itself, we can move on to look at what Christians have always believed. I’ll only quote Ignatius of Antioch, writing less than a hundred years after Christ:
“Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia…predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God” (Letter to the Ephesians 1).

“For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit” (ibid., 18:2).

“[T]o the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is” (Letter to the Romans 1).
I focus on this point first, the question of who is Christ, for good reason:
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed. (Galations 1:8-9)
I don’t want you to be accursed my friend. Pray.

Peace in the Lord Jesus Christ,

DustinsDad
 
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tommy1234:
Thanks for the last couple of posts. Let me try just a few questions. Is Mary, the Mother of God or the Mother of Jesus? I thought God was the Alpha and the Omega.

I belonged to the largest church in Contra Costa County with 3,000 members and was a senior member of their finance council. Therefore, in addition to my non-practicing family and friends I saw a ton of non-practicing Catholics. So why are members not encouraged to bring their Bibles to church so they can follow along with the first and second reading and the Gospel?
Interesting. I’m from Contra Costa. We do not bring bibles to church because we have them in the pew- it’s that little thing called the missel, with all the readings and gospels in it. Even dated for you. Most Catholics are aware of the missel. I do not believe Tommy, that you have ever been in a Catholic Church.
 
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tommy1234:
Thanks for the last couple of posts. Let me try just a few questions. Is Mary, the Mother of God or the Mother of Jesus? I thought God was the Alpha and the Omega.
Question 1. Yes
Question 2. Yes.
 
Revelations refers to the end of the Bible, not pegan rome.
Really. Says who? (never mind…I know, Brooklyn.)
May want to read some history.
 
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stillsearching:
Interesting. I’m from Contra Costa. We do not bring bibles to church because we have them in the pew- it’s that little thing called the missel, with all the readings and gospels in it. Even dated for you. Most Catholics are aware of the missel. I do not believe Tommy, that you have ever been in a Catholic Church.
Hello: I have been in a Catholic Church. 6 years at Catholic School in Cupertino, CA. 40 years in the Catholic Church and served as a senior member of the Finance Council at a church in the county I live in.

Let me restate the questions I have put up a few times and see where this goes. These questions are important because they deal with our future and our destinty is important to us all.
  1. Who is the “beast” in Revelations referring too?
  2. Who is the “wild beast” in Revelations referring to?
  3. What do the 10 horns refer to in revelations?
  4. Did Jesus say God is “superior” to him? I found several quotes that indicate that Jesus says his Father is superior to him. Please do not get me wrong. I am Jesus’ servant and Jesus is the ruler in Heaven. Here is the quotes I found. John 14:28 “Father is greater” John 5:19 Heb 5:8 John 8:42 “Son obedient in Heaven” “Son sent by Father” John 12:49 1Co 11:13 “God is Christ’s head and God”, John 20:17 and Rev 1:6. Blessings, tommy
 
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TeriGator:
Tommy, here is more evidence that Christ was and is Lord. While I would love to get into the whole issue of Revelations with you, I have to refrain from such lengthy topics. We have already experienced one power outage due to the hurricane to the west of us, and could run into more at any time. Besides, my head hurts too much to think right now! :whacky:

42In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. Luke 42-44
“[T]he Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God” (John 5:18).

“Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men” (Philippians 2:6b-7).
My thoughts and prayers are with you during this natural disaster and I hope you and your family are safe. Hopefully in the new system we will have an end to natural disasters and suffering will be no more. Peace and Love, tommy
 
[QUOTEFor a quick once-over click on the Catholic Answers tracts at http://www.catholic.com/library/last_things.asp”]Last things

Of course, we always have the official word: Catechism of the Catholic Church A quick check through the index under the topic “Jesus Christ - Second Coming” will get you everything you need to know. A mass-market paperback edition is available, too.]

tommy1234, I copied this post from the Apologetics thread entitled “End Times”. It was posted by Nan S (post #2)
I hope this helps with the Catholic understanding of the last things you are looking for.
After 40 years in the Catholic Church, surely you have had much recourse to The Church’s understanding of end times. As Catholics, our concern is to live our lives on a day to day basis, following the Word as best as we are able, and putting that Word to action in our lives. It is our responsibility to know that Word. Putting your energy into “knowing” the dates of the second coming, the meanings of “beasts” and “horns” is not an effecient way to draw close to God. What will be will be and all the “knowledge” of Revelation meanings will not change one iota of God’s plan. Dwell on your relationship with him and worry not as to the future. Christ will care for each of us as He sees fit.
 
catsrus said:
tommy1234, I copied this post from the Apologetics thread entitled “End Times”. It was posted by Nan S (post #2)
I hope this helps with the Catholic understanding of the last things you are looking for.
After 40 years in the Catholic Church, surely you have had much recourse to The Church’s understanding of end times. As Catholics, our concern is to live our lives on a day to day basis, following the Word as best as we are able, and putting that Word to action in our lives. It is our responsibility to know that Word. Putting your energy into “knowing” the dates of the second coming, the meanings of “beasts” and “horns” is not an effecient way to draw close to God. What will be will be and all the “knowledge” of Revelation meanings will not change one iota of God’s plan. Dwell on your relationship with him and worry not as to the future. Christ will care for each of us as He sees fit.

I do agree it is not up to man to know the end of the world (notice I say not the earth). However, these words of prohecy were given to us by God to read for a reason and to gain some understanding in the books of Daniel and Revelations.

If God didn’t want for us to learn the meanings of the beast, wild beast, babylon the great and Daniels dreams, then he would not have given it for us to read. I don’t recall reading these things in the Misselettes at mass. Our destinity is important as I stated in one of my last posts. As humans we know our destiny everyday, when we will be at work, when we will be at home. So therefore, I find our destiny with Christ even more important especially since these are huge topics in the books of Daniel and Revelations. tommy
 
Hi Tommy:

The entire Mass is Sacred Scripture in action.

If you read the Book of Revelation particularly Revelation Chapter 4 you get to see the Divine Liturgy (or the Mass) that occurs in heaven itself.

What the Catholic Church has in the Mass, through the grace of God, is that same Heavenly Divine Liturgy in each of its Churches every Sunday and every day.

Many of the responses that the people make during Mass come directly from Sacred Scripture. The prayers that the Priests say during Mass come directly from Sacred Scripture.

The Psalms that we pray at Mass are the exact same Psalms that Jesus prayed when he was on earth.

For a JW, you read about scripture (and receive a skewed interpretation of scripture at that)…for Catholics the Sacred Scriptures come alive every time we participate in the Mass.

When the Priest consecrates the bread he says the exact same words that Jesus said, “This is my body”. (By the way, the JWs change the wording in this verse to “This means my body.”) When the Priest consecrates the wine he says the exact same words Jesus said.

So, instead of reading about the Last Supper as if it were some historical event far far away…(like the JWs do)…Catholics at Mass are experiencing the event, the very same event, that the Apostles experienced in a sacramental way. Catholics at Mass are living the Sacred Scriptures and experiencing the Sacred Scriptures and not treating them as some ancient manuscript that contains some secret code for when the end of the world will come.

The ultimate experience for Catholics at Mass of course is not just hearing the Word…but eating the Word. We consume the Word of God Himself…As a JW, the word of God came and went 2000 years ago…and now you have a mere ancient manuscript that you must study over and over again in the hopes of finding some secret code for the end of the world and your salvation.

For Catholics we consume and are consumed by the Word of God Himself in the Mass. We not only hear the Word, but we taste the Word, touch the Word, and eat the Word. And, in the process of doing this, if we are open to His grace, we ourselves are consumed by the Word of God Himself to enter the world and change it for the better.

The only thing the JWs can offer you is the presence of God based on the calculations of a man who liked to use pyramidology to interpret the Bible. (Pyramidology is steeped in the occult in case you are wondering.) And, for JWs this presence is invisible and occurred back in 1914 which as you yourself have said is a date that was a mistake.

Catholics experience the real presence of God each and every time they walk into a Catholic Church and each and every time they participate in Mass and receive the Eucharist.

JWs merely read about the word…Catholics Experience an Intimate Communion with the very Word of God Himself.

Jeff Schwehm
www.catholicxjw.com
 
Thanks for your thoughtful response Jeff and the time you put into it. I keep reading how great it is that the Missal is made available in other posts. The Missal does not allow for reference to other scriptures to reflect upon other reading that mights be located pretty close to the one that is being read. It’s great having the Bible handing. I open mine every few minutes during worships to make my own discernment about what is being discussed.

I probably do not belong here since I am not a Catholic anymore and am sorry if there has been any offense to anyone with my opposing view now that I jumped off the big ship and went the way of the narrow and crampted. It has work for my family and we feel drawn to God and closer to Jesus, it worked for us.

The reason I keep asking about what you got out of the book of Daniel and Relelations, the beast, the wild beast and the 10 horns which no one has even attempted to answer is because of this Scripture.

Rev. 18:4 give sound direction telling us to do something. Here it is Rev 18:4 "And I heard another voice out of heaven say “Get out of her, my people”. “If you do not want to share with her in her sins and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues”. Now read Rev 18:1-3 and see if you get a different message. This is why I have stayed on my four questions about the beast, wild beast, 10 horns and bablylon. What do these four things mean to Catholics? Certainly there must be some opinion.

God Bless everybody here and these are only my opinions and questions and they are not meant to offend anyone. tommy
 
My other computer says my IP address has been banned. So if you do not see any further responses from me you’ll know why. Remember that Jesus was condemned by the Jews for disclosing false teachings of his time and this is a section of this site to share contrasting views. Pease and Love, tommy
 
My other computer says my IP address has been banned for sharing my views in a polite manner. This is a site for sharing contrasting views. Remember Jesus was condemned by the Jews for disclosing false teachings which I do not see these times are much different. tommy
 
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tommy1234:
My other computer says my IP address has been banned for sharing my views in a polite manner. This is a site for sharing contrasting views. Remember Jesus was condemned by the Jews for disclosing false teachings which I do not see these times are much different. tommy
That sir can work both ways Jesus was also accused of getting power from the devil to heal and you have appointed yourself Pope and have got it WRONG BIGTIME:nope:
 
Furthermore,you remind me of the man in the Bible that said thankyou God I am not like that sinner back there,Jesus justifies one of them look it up:nope: And to blantantly ask for people to leave the Church is against the forum rules and you know it so do not play victim because your IP was banned:mad:
 
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Lisa4Catholics:
Furthermore,you remind me of the man in the Bible that said thankyou God I am not like that sinner back there,Jesus justifies one of them look it up:nope: And to blantantly ask for people to leave the Church is against the forum rules and you know it so do not play victim because your IP was banned:mad:
Yes and lets for forget that tommy has refused to answer any questions that are asked of him, he just wants to spew his stuff and ignore anything we have to ask of him.
 
Tommy out of morbid curiousity, after asking your ‘important questions’ so many times. Please tell us, according to you or your JW friends, who is the beast and 10 horns etc ???
And please explain how you or JWs come to believe this.
 
Is our pal Tommy now comparing his rejection with Jesus’ rejection… oh Plleeeaaaassseee !!! poor baby…
 
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wcknight:
Is our pal Tommy now comparing his rejection with Jesus’ rejection… oh Plleeeaaaassseee !!! poor baby…
That was my impression hence I had to bust out this:mad:
 
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