Riches of the church

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Wow! While I enjoyed the Vatican history lesson, I think it diverted a little bit from the topic at hand. The subtle and not so subtle accusations directed at the “riches of the Church” do not need to be defended. They are nothing more than an excuse to attack the faith, rather than learn about it. Our holy faith will always be subject to such debate, often causing us to focus on the wrong thing.

Perhaps the real question here is: Is it sinful for the Catholic Church and individual members of the faith, particularly clergy, to have riches? Well, I’m no genius, but I don’t think it’s wrong for anyone to have anything, especially since each and every one of us has nothing without God. We tend to forget that God alone has the power to raise the lowly and bring the proud to their knees.

As I meditated on the Catholic Catechism today, reflecting on a message about sin, I ended up writing about how we won’t answer to God as a group when we die. We cannot excuse the actions we make today on what society does in general. Being rich is not and never has been a sin. God’s gives His grace to kings and presidents as much as He gives it to those who are poor and everyone in between.

That said, we have no cause to challenge anyone for having more than we do. The Church’s riches are not an excuse for us to pass judgment on the Church in its entirety. The sinfulness of any one person (or a few people) should not be used as a reason to find fault with the groups they participate in. The Church is made of and for sinners. If we were all perfect, we’d have no reason to seek God in the first place.

Being called to the priesthood is noble. Living up to that calling requires an awful lot of grace, and each priest will do it differently according to their personality and ability. Some will be graced with “scandalous wealth.” Others will serve in 3rd world countries, ministering to the needs of the poor.

It is not our place to point fingers at or answer for others. The only person I will held accountable for when I meet my Maker is me. He’s not going to ask me if my pastor was a good guy and taught me my catechism well enough. He’s going to judge me based on the use or misuse of the graces I alone received from Him.

Please, take a look at my blog post today about sin. See if it makes more sense to you. I sincerely hope it does, but if not, that’s okay too. You are a precious gift to the world and your willingness to participate in these discussions helps all of us. So, thank you!

Teresa
 
Teresa_Lee said:
Perhaps the real question here is: Is it sinful for the Catholic Church and individual members of the faith, particularly clergy, to have riches? Well, I’m no genius, but I don’t think it’s wrong for anyone to have anything, especially since each and every one of us has nothing without God. We tend to forget that God alone has the power to raise the lowly and bring the proud to their knees.
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What about the parable of Jesus and the rich man? Doesn’t that directly contradict your statement?

Also, elvisman, could you please stop messing with the fonts in your posts? Using colors and italics and bold as you do is rather hostile and unpleasant; can’t we keep things civil? No doubt Samoana got a little heated, too, but…calm down a bit. I can see you’re passionate about defending the Church; that doesn’t mean you have to insult everyone who disagrees with you.
 
Samoana90 said:
I’ve grown up in the Church, and have met many bishops, priests and religious. One thing I’ve noticed is the ammount of money these people have (especially the ones who claim to take a vow of poverty.)

Now make whatever excuse you may want, but doesn’t Jesus say to sell all you have and give it to the poor?

All the bishops I know live in practically what you would call a small mansion with their own servants. They all eat in expensive restaurants and spend far too much money on their vestments. And why do we spend so much money on earthly things? Didn’t John Chrysostom say something about having golden souls, not golden chalices? It makes me sad to see our bishops living like this. And our holy father lives in his own country? why don’t we sell all these things and give them to the poor? love is far more important than human traditions, or human art…
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Please tell me you are joking! The “mansions” don’t belong to the bishops. The Pope doesn’t live in his own country, he lives in the holy see which belongs to the entire church. Most priests I know of have very limited spendable income. They rely on parishoners for many ordinary items that you and I take for granted.
 
Regarding Aperture’s comment to me:
I’d like to refer to a passage from Imitation of Christ. Christ said, “My child, you must beware of disputing about matters above your understanding, or about the hidden judgments of God. Do not wonder why one person is forsaken by God, while another receives an abundance of His grace; why this person has so much trouble and the other is so greatly advanced.”

Each person is blessed as God sees fit, spiritually, physically, mentally and emotionally. What they do with their gifts, and I personally don’t believe human judgment on normal, disabled or handicapped applies, is what matters when we die. Some of the happiest people in the world have borne great crosses and thanked God for their lives in spite of them. Likewise, rich people who serve God with all their hearts, using their riches for good, are also happy.

When it comes to spirituality and matters of the heart, it doesn’t matter whether or not you are rich or poor. What matters is whether or not your heart belongs to God. I do believe many rich people love God, just as I believe many poor people love God. I also believe people of all colors and ethnicity love God, and I truly believe people of different faiths love God. Human categorizations and labels deter from the love of God. To judge someone, anyone, on how much money they have is wrong. “By their deeds you shall know them,” and I don’t think “them” is taken as a group.

Teresa
M. J. Joachim on Catholic Catechism and More
 
aperture said:
What about the parable of Jesus and the rich man? Doesn’t that directly contradict your statement?

Also, elvisman, could you please stop messing with the fonts in your posts? Using colors and italics and bold as you do is rather hostile and unpleasant; can’t we keep things civil? No doubt Samoana got a little heated, too, but…calm down a bit. I can see you’re passionate about defending the Church; that doesn’t mean you have to insult everyone who disagrees with you.
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First, let us please remember that we are in the Easter season. This alone gives us our sole hope for the fulfillment of God’s promises. Second: The rich man in the parable ignored Lazarus. The Catholic Church is the largest charitable organization (and the oldest organization, period) on the face of this earth. Can she improve? Yes! Who will do it? You and I. We must improve her by our generosity and our example.

God designed our eyes to look outward, because we could not stand the view into ourselves.
 
Samoana90 said:
They all eat in expensive restaurants…
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In fairness, there are a couple of orders that take vows of poverty BUT believe in eating well so that they’re in peak physical shape to undertake the hard work of physical aid and charity to the poor. I doubt these would be the ones eating in “expensive restaurants”, however.
 
aperture said:
Also, elvisman, could you please stop messing with the fonts in your posts? Using colors and italics and bold as you do is rather hostile and unpleasant; can’t we keep things civil? No doubt Samoana got a little heated, too, but…calm down a bit. I can see you’re passionate about defending the Church; that doesn’t mean you have to insult everyone who disagrees with you.
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**Color and boldness have nothing to do with hostility - it’s the way I post - period. **
You’re new here, so I’ll cut you some slack. I’ve been here for six years and I’ve heard every insult, as well as many, many compliments about it.

Secondly - I have insulted no one. Just pointing out that blanket statements about the Church cannot be made by one’s own personal experience because THAT is ignorance.

In the past 6 years, I have found that the people who complain about the colors usually have nothing of substance to add to the conversation or simply cannot answer the points I’ve made.

The bottom line: Stick to the topic.
 
aperture said:
What about the parable of Jesus and the rich man? Doesn’t that directly contradict your statement?
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WRONG.
**Jesus’ statements about the rich have nothing to do with those who are good stewards of what they have. He was pointing to how difficult it can be for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven - not that wealth is evil. **
Joseph of Arimathea was a rich man who was an esteemed follower of Christ in the early Church.

And as it has already been pointed out - ad nauseam - the Church is the largest single charitable entity in the world and contributes more than any other.
 
aperture said:
What about the parable of Jesus and the rich man? Doesn’t that directly contradict your statement?
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Define rich.

Not from the North American or Western European perspective, but from a global perspective.

A friend of mine is a widow who lives modestly by N. American standards: small house, 11 year old rusting car pushing 300,000 kilometers, very simple lifestyle, has a job, but needs to count pennies to pay for her kids’ education. We would by no means call her rich by N. American standards.

But by the standards of many countries in the world such as, oh, say, the Congo, she’s fabulously wealthy.

Kind of puts a different twist on it doesn’t it? By a global measure, most of us posting here on this forum (have a computer, Internet access, freedom to do so without having to spend all time and energy on survival), have the same chance of going to Heaven as a camel passing through the eye of a needle.

Whether a BMW or a rusted-out, 11-year old Honda, it’s a luxury that huge populations in the world can’t even imagine having.
 
OraLabora said:
Define rich.

Not from the North American or Western European perspective, but from a global perspective.

A friend of mine is a widow who lives modestly by N. American standards: small house, 11 year old rusting car pushing 300,000 kilometers, very simple lifestyle, has a job, but needs to count pennies to pay for her kids’ education. We would by no means call her rich by N. American standards.

But by the standards of many countries in the world such as, oh, say, the Congo, she’s fabulously wealthy.

Kind of puts a different twist on it doesn’t it? By a global measure, most of us posting here on this forum (have a computer, Internet access, freedom to do so without having to spend all time and energy on survival), have the same chance of going to Heaven as a camel passing through the eye of a needle.

Whether a BMW or a rusted-out, 11-year old Honda, it’s a luxury that huge populations in the world can’t even imagine having.
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As far as I know, the Church has always condemned relativism of any kind. To say that a certain level of being rich is okay because it’s common doesn’t seem to be quite right.
 
It is precisely the example of the clergy that will draw people towards or away from the church. Now call my experiences subjective, because the are. They’re mine. But I know many other people who have been scandalised by the way many clergymen live. For e.g. a certain cardinal is chauffeured around in a BMW or Mercedes Benz. And I have seen many bishops doing the same. All the bishops I have met have a secretary (which is probably necessary,) maid and a cook, at the least. When I was in a certain religious order, I ate and lived far better than my family back home. (And no I do not have the internet at my house, I have to go the library.) I’m not saying that clergymen should have bread and water most days, and cheese as a treat. But they could live much simpler lives (the ones I know.) Say what you want about church money etc. But it seems like some people are more interested in keeping the local Cathedral in order, rather than feeding the poor.
 
Samoana90 said:
It is precisely the example of the clergy that will draw people towards or away from the church. Now call my experiences subjective, because the are. They’re mine. But I know many other people who have been scandalised by the way many clergymen live. For e.g. a certain cardinal is chauffeured around in a BMW or Mercedes Benz. And I have seen many bishops doing the same. All the bishops I have met have a secretary (which is probably necessary,) maid and a cook, at the least. When I was in a certain religious order, I ate and lived far better than my family back home. (And no I do not have the internet at my house, I have to go the library.) I’m not saying that clergymen should have bread and water most days, and cheese as a treat. But they could live much simpler lives (the ones I know.) Say what you want about church money etc. But it seems like some people are more interested in keeping the local Cathedral in order, rather than feeding the poor.
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How do you know that these cars have not been donated to the church? Where I live, our local Mercedes plant donated or leased for free hundreds of cars to our police department and local churches. There’s a dual motive here. Not only do they get to do a charitable deed, but most of these vehicles are next-year’s models, and Mercedes gets free road testing and feedback on their performance in real world conditions.

Also remember that if you live in Europe, a Mercedes or BMW there is no different than a Ford here.

Second, when would a bishop or cardinal find time to cook or clean? Most priests I know are so busy with Mass, presiding over sacraments, going to hospitals at all hours to provide Anointing of the Sick, administration, and so on, that it would be unrealistic for them to have time for these duties with our current priest shortage. Our local priest is up by 6 am and rarely done working before 11 pm. If it’s this bad for our priests, how much worse it must be for our bishops and cardinals?

Third, most priests are NOT bound to a vow of poverty.

Fourth, the Catholic Church donates almost unreal sums of money to charity already. More charity is always better, but having “the Cathedral in order” can actually provide a cost SAVINGS. By having one large parish instead of many smaller ones, you save on property tax. You can maintain one grand building with greater easy usually than many smaller ones. Also, it’s better to build a grand building that will be around in 200 years, than a succession of cheap ones that last only thirty and have to be constantly upgraded or seriously remodeled.

Now that said, let me emphasize that I am not questioning your past experience in the least. I am simply providing my point of view.
 
Why don’t you go ask a priest how much he makes? Why not email your Bishop? And I like the Vatican, I’d rather not sell it, thanks.
 
I am curious through, where would the diocese of LA come up with $660 million to settle abuse cases?🤷
 
Not all priests or bishops take a vow of poverty. But yes it is quite the lucrative business for some, most its not. Its always been like this really. In the end you have to remember that these are not ordinary people, they are highly educated, skilled, and talented. Most could have had high end jobs, in fact I know of a priest who had a Phd in microelectronics and had a a high paid Sr Engineering job, but he gave it up for us.

Also, on the issue of servents, its part of tradition from back when parishes had 6 or 7 priests. They needed someone to take care of food, cleaning, and laundry. As with today, a bishop is a busy man, I think their time is better spent working as a bishop then having to worry about cleaning or cooking. Think of a CEO or something simular. Of course there are always exceptions.
 
Like said:
I am curious through, where would the diocese of LA come up with $660 million to settle abuse cases?🤷
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**They had to sell a lot of properties such as future cemetery sites, food bank sites, etc. **They didn’t simply dig into their “deep pockets”.

Two of the properties were from my parish.
 
Samoana90 said:
It is precisely the example of the clergy that will draw people towards or away from the church. Now call my experiences subjective, because the are. They’re mine. But I know many other people who have been scandalised by the way many clergymen live. For e.g. a certain cardinal is chauffeured around in a BMW or Mercedes Benz. And I have seen many bishops doing the same. All the bishops I have met have a secretary (which is probably necessary,) maid and a cook, at the least. When I was in a certain religious order, I ate and lived far better than my family back home. (And no I do not have the internet at my house, I have to go the library.) I’m not saying that clergymen should have bread and water most days, and cheese as a treat. But they could live much simpler lives (the ones I know.) Say what you want about church money etc. But it seems like some people are more interested in keeping the local Cathedral in order, rather than feeding the poor.
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From the very dawn of the Church – even in the Old Testament – believers offered their very best to God. As a matter of fact – they very best was** required**** of them in the OT. Look at the Ark of the Covenant and Temple of Solomon. They were made with pure gold and precious materials – and they were commissioned by God himself. Who are YOU to tell God that he has to settle for our second or third or fourth best?**
**A beautiful Cathedral is the ****least **we can offer to Him.
**As for the clergy – when YOU give up the chance to have a lucrative career, stay celibate, give up the hope of having your own family, be on call 24 hours a day for thousands of parishioners and be looked down upon in times of scandal (even when it wasn’t your fault) - ALL in the name of the spreading of the Gospel – then you can complain.
Until then – you haven’tearned that right.
 
I don’ t mind the church having treasures or even priest making good money.

When I fall out of the boat is when they tell me I have to support higher and higher taxes, national debt in support of social justice, and then tell me I’m going to hell because I am greedy.

And that they are, therefore, assuming that the faithful can’t be charitable with coersion from the government.

Those that propose that foolishness come across as hypocrites.
 
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