Rick Perry Thread

[ishii]

Lurkers: Ask your priests this issue. CAF posters are spinning their own agenda here.

A Catholic may vote for a Pro-Choice candidate despite their stance on this issue, though an important issue it be.

I, for instance, disagree with nearly EVERY SINGLE issue of Conservative candidates, exept the Pro-Life, Gay Marriage issues. THat is not sufficient for me to cast my vote for said “pro-Life” candidates.

Go to those with ecclesial authority. Your Bishop, your pastor- not an internet forum HEAVILY slanted to the right.

Lukers: read this document by the USCCB: (especially note the reference to “pro-abortion groups”)

old.usccb.org/prolife/tdocs/resabort89.shtml

*The decision of the U. S. Supreme Court in Webster v. Reproductive Health Services provides reason to hope that our nation is moving toward a time when unborn children will again enjoy the protection of law. The Court recognized states’ legitimate interest in protecting prenatal life and their authority to adopt laws favoring childbirth over abortion. The Court indicated that a state’s interest in protecting life might well exist throughout pregnancy, not only after viability. We are encouraged by this.

Yet abortion on demand remains our nation’s legal policy because the 1973 Supreme Court decisions that legalized abortion throughout pregnancy have not been overturned. Because of those decisions many citizens believe that women have a moral right to abort their unborn children. This has led to erosion of respect for the right to life, which is bestowed by the Creator and cannot legitimately be denied by any nation or court. More than one and a half million unborn children in the United States continue to die each year by abortion, and increasing numbers of women suffer abortion’s physical, emotional and spiritual pain. Often they suffer alone, deserted by men unwilling to acknowledge their own responsibilities as fathers.

Most Americans believe that abortion should be illegal except in certain limited circumstances; an overwhelming majority agrees that unmarried minors should not obtain abortions without parental knowledge or consent.*** Nonetheless, pro-abortion or so-called “pro-choice” groups **have mounted a campaign to convince legislators and others that Americans want abortion on demand. These organizations have formed new political arms and have intensified efforts to defeat politicians who do not support permissive abortion. Because of the critical importance of the issue and the need for a timely response, we wish to reaffirm our conviction that all human life is sacred whether born or unborn. With the Second Vatican Council we declare that “from the moment of conception life must be guarded with the greatest care, while abortion and infanticide are unspeakable crimes” (my bold italics added)

Now, Ringil, tell me how you in good conscience can vote for a pro-abortion candidate.

Ishii

 

[ringil]

Post #38

Lurkers: notice the above signature regarding possible bias outside of the abortion issue. Again, go to your priests not to internet forums heavily slanted to the right.

 

[ishii]

Post #38

Lurkers: notice the above signature regarding possible bias outside of the abortion issue.

What issue rises above over a million aborted babies per year?

What issue rises above over three thousand aborted babies per day?

Ishii

 

[estesbob]

Post #38

Lurkers: notice the above signature regarding possible bias outside of the abortion issue. Again, go to your priests not to internet forums heavily slanted to the right.

I am biased. Biased by the teachings of the one Holy Csthoilc Chuch

 

[ringil]

Lurkers should check folks’ histories to answer the question whether their comments here are simply tied to a devotion to the Pro-Life cause or to the aggregate of rightist political agendas.

Could posts be an effort to influence folks to vote for their desired candidate on a wide range of issues. I believe so.

Check with your priests regarding this issue of voting. Ask your priests what candidates you are morally permitted to cast your vote for. Ask if casting your vote for Obama would be a sin?

 

[ishii]

If I may, I don't see where he said that Catholics Democrats are Democrats because they're educated,

He said this: Most of the Catholic Democrats… are educated enough to know that the word “intrinsic” does not mean “infinite”

which means: Democrat catholics are “educated enough” to understand the nuances of the words and don’t fall prey to simplistic arguments like those pro-lifers do.

I can tell that you would be guessing wrong if you tried to estimate how I feel deep down about the unborn.

How do you feel about the over three thousand abortions per day? How do you* feel *about the over million aborted per year? I look at the actions of people, and if the action of a Democrat catholic is to pull the lever for the most pro-abortion president ever in Obama, then I’ll draw my own conclusions. If you pull the lever for a grand wizard of the KKK I will conclude you are either a racist or that you don’t feel that racism is all that bad.

In the first place, why should you need to estimate how I feel deep down if I declare myself to be against abortion?

I call it as I see it. Its all about actions not words- you say you are against abortion but you pull the lever for a pro-abortion candidate. The voter for the grand wizard of the KKK candidate might declare “I’m not a racist” but it would ring hollow. Maybe invincible ignorance is a better explanation of why some catholics vote for pro-abortion politicians rather than saying they don’t care about the unborn. I wouldn’t want to be in either group.

For decades politicians on the right have professed to be against it while doing practically zilch (collectively) to stem it; would you venture to estimate how they really feel deep down about abortion?

What can the GOP really do when Roe V WAde prevents any real progress in reforming our abortion laws? What can the GOP do when Democrat catholics like Teddy Kennedy and Joe Biden ally with the abortion lobby to thwart common sense restrictions on abortion? You should be criticizing them, not the GOP.

As for your question: ‘what trumps abortion’…for you that is the salient question but for me and many people I know, it’s not. IMO, a more salient question is: what causes of abortion can be addressed effectively, to decrease the practice? Because I am very familiar with the complex causation of abortion and the contributing moral, religious, social and cultural factors, it is not a single issue for me, therefore in my mind it cannot be simply considered in a vacuum or placed on a list and numbered.

Its not either/or - they go hand in hand. We have to reform our laws and our culture. I think it will be hard to change the culture and societal attitudes regarding abortion when the law of the land says to women " abortion on demand is a-ok - go for it!"

That is my perspective; drawn out of my personal experiences and encounters. Others may or may not share it, but it is not too much to ask that my right to hold this view be respected. Instead, the most common reaction of posters who disagree is to cast aspersions and slap on labels. This sort of behavior does not lend itself to debate or to unified action against the life issues that we can impact together.

I don’t share your views, but I have no problem with your overall tone and respectfullness of your post. I disagree with you and hope you might reconsider.

Ishii

 

[ishii]

Lurkers should check folks’ histories to answer the question whether their comments here are simply tied to a devotion to the Pro-Life cause or to the aggregate of rightist political agendas.

Could posts be an effort to influence folks to vote for their desired candidate on a wide range of issues. I believe so.

Check with your priests regarding this issue of voting. Ask your priests what candidates you are morally permitted to cast your vote for. Ask if casting your vote for Obama would be a sin?

Or you could actually answer the question I am posing to you. Lukers leaning toward Obama and Ringil:

What issue rises above over a million aborted babies per year?

What issue rises above over three thousand aborted babies per day?

Ishii

 

[mark_a]

Or you could actually answer the question I am posing to you. Lukers leaning toward Obama and Ringil:

What issue rises above over a million aborted babies per year?

What issue rises above over three thousand aborted babies per day?

Ishii

Our priest explained it as proportionality. I can’t think of a better term.

 

[ishii]

Our priest explained it as proportionality. I can’t think of a better term.

Exactly. But I would still like for these Democrat catholic posters to explain to us what issues rise above the level of abortion in terms of moral gravity and urgency. Is it federally funded school lunches for kids? Govt.-run healthcare? Gay marriage? Taxing the rich more?

Ishii

 

[markomalley]

Our priest explained it as proportionality. I can’t think of a better term.

One must therefore reject the thesis, characteristic of teleological and proportionalist theories, which holds that it is impossible to qualify as morally evil according to its species — its “object” — the deliberate choice of certain kinds of behaviour or specific acts, apart from a consideration of the intention for which the choice is made or the totality of the foreseeable consequences of that act for all persons concerned…Reason attests that there are objects of the human act which are by their nature “incapable of being ordered” to God, because they radically contradict the good of the person made in his image. These are the acts which, in the Church’s moral tradition, have been termed “intrinsically evil” (intrinsece malum): they are such always and per se, in other words, on account of their very object, and quite apart from the ulterior intentions of the one acting and the circumstances. Consequently, without in the least denying the influence on morality exercised by circumstances and especially by intentions, the Church teaches that “there exist acts which per se and in themselves, independently of circumstances, are always seriously wrong by reason of their object”.

Pope Bl John Paul II, Veritas Splendor

In 2008, 1,212,400 induced abortions occurred in the US.

Over a single four-year term for a president, that is 4,849,600 deaths. Over a possible second term, that is 9,699,200 lives snuffed out. In the USA alone.

Here are scenarios that would provide “proportionate” counter-balance to supporting pro-abortion politicians:

“If I’m elected President, I will put an end to the Iranian threat. I will immediately order a nuclear strike against them and turn that land into glass.”

“If I’m elected President, I will put an end to the problem of the poor. I will order the National Guard to surround all of their enclaves and starve them.”

“If I’m elected President, I will put an end to the illegal alien problem. I will give the military orders to shoot to kill each one of them on sight.”

Those would be proportional. Very little else would be.

 

[ringil]

Exactly. But I would still like for these Democrat catholic posters to explain to us what issues rise above the level of abortion in terms of moral gravity and urgency. Is it federally funded school lunches for kids? Govt.-run healthcare? Gay marriage? Taxing the rich more?

Ishii

For me it is nearly EVERY SINGLE ISSUE taken up by the Right. Policies of the Right cost lives. I am a social worker. I have seen it first hand.

In my estimation the Right is wrong on almost every issue. There committment to the Pro-life hasn’t seen much success either.

 

[ringil]

One must therefore reject the thesis, characteristic of teleological and proportionalist theories, which holds that it is impossible to qualify as morally evil according to its species — its “object” — the deliberate choice of certain kinds of behaviour or specific acts, apart from a consideration of the intention for which the choice is made or the totality of the foreseeable consequences of that act for all persons concerned…Reason attests that there are objects of the human act which are by their nature “incapable of being ordered” to God, because they radically contradict the good of the person made in his image. These are the acts which, in the Church’s moral tradition, have been termed “intrinsically evil” (intrinsece malum): they are such always and per se, in other words, on account of their very object, and quite apart from the ulterior intentions of the one acting and the circumstances. Consequently, without in the least denying the influence on morality exercised by circumstances and especially by intentions, the Church teaches that “there exist acts which per se and in themselves, independently of circumstances, are always seriously wrong by reason of their object”.

Pope Bl John Paul II, Veritas Splendor

In 2008, 1,212,400 induced abortions occurred in the US.

Over a single four-year term for a president, that is 4,849,600 deaths. Over a possible second term, that is 9,699,200 lives snuffed out. In the USA alone.

Here are scenarios that would provide “proportionate” counter-balance to supporting pro-abortion politicians:

“If I’m elected President, I will put an end to the Iranian threat. I will immediately order a nuclear strike against them and turn that land into glass.”

“If I’m elected President, I will put an end to the problem of the poor. I will order the National Guard to surround all of their enclaves and starve them.”

“If I’m elected President, I will put an end to the illegal alien problem. I will give the military orders to shoot to kill each one of them on sight.”

Those would be proportional. Very little else would be.

In other words the poster should trust you and not the word of his/her priest.

Lurkers: ask your priest if it is a sin to vote for Obama.

Or you could go to a heavily slanted forum to gain information of how ot vote. Check the history of posters regarding nearly ANY ISSUE and you will find that they echo rightist ideology. Is this where you should go for advice?

Trust your priest.

 

[ringil]

Watch how posters twist and ignore statements of the Bishops and even of the Pope, which they disagree with, stating these are “prudential judgements” or that the “mainstream media” are twisting.

 

[estesbob]

For me it is nearly EVERY SINGLE ISSUE taken up by the Right. Policies of the Right cost lives. I am a social worker. I have seen it first hand.

In my estimation the Right is wrong on almost every issue. There committment to the Pro-life hasn’t seen much success either.

Can you post ANY quotes from ANY member of the Margestioum or any church document to support your opinion?

I mean something like this:

“No, you can never vote for someone who favors absolutely what’s called the ‘right to choice’ of a woman to destroy human life in her womb, or the right to a procured abortion,”

• Cardinal Raymond Burke*

The fact you have demonized the republcian party beyond recognoition does not allow you to vote for a pro-abortion canidate. If you find right wing canidates to be repugnant to vote for their is no requirement that you do so. What you cant do use this charecterization to justify voting for a pro-abortion canodate

 

[markomalley]

In other words the poster should trust you and not the word of his/her priest.

Hardly.

But you should trust the Magisterium more than your priest.

You should trust the words of the Holy Father more than your priest.

You should trust the words of the Prefect of the Congregation more than your priest.

Lurkers: ask your priest if it is a sin to vote for Obama.

Rather than that, lurkers, ask your priest what kind of evil is proportionate the the slaughter of over 50,000,000 lives in the past 38 years.

And yes, you should check the posting history of anybody on an Internet forum. Particularly pro-death left wingers who like to distort the clear teaching of the Church and twist it into support of socialism (which, oh by the way, has been condemned by every pope since Leo XIII) and mass homicide (which has been condemned since before the Didache. Of course, I would not be talking about anybody posting to this thread in particular. But there are some who float around here…

 

[ringil]

Hardly.

But you should trust the Magisterium more than your priest.

You should trust the words of the Holy Father more than your priest.

You should trust the words of the Prefect of the Congregation more than your priest.

Rather than that, lurkers, ask your priest what kind of evil is proportionate the the slaughter of over 50,000,000 lives in the past 38 years.

And yes, you should check the posting history of anybody on an Internet forum. Particularly pro-death left wingers who like to distort the clear teaching of the Church and twist it into support of socialism (which, oh by the way, has been condemned by every pope since Leo XIII) and mass homicide (which has been condemned since before the Didache. Of course, I would not be talking about anybody posting to this thread in particular. But there are some who float around here…

I would hope that any lurker checks my history as they certainly wouldn’t find any pro-choice or “pro-death” if you rather, proclivities.

Check with your priest. Don’t go to Right leaning forums to form your opinions on voting. Your priest and your Bishop have spiritual authority over you.

Ask your priest, or your Bishop, if you can, whether it would be a sin for you to vote for Obama.

 

[markomalley]

I would hope that any lurker checks my history as they certainly wouldn’t find any pro-choice or “pro-death” if you rather, proclivities.

Check with your priest. Don’t go to Right leaning forums to form your opinions on voting. Your priest and your Bishop have spiritual authority over you.

Ask your priest, or your Bishop, if you can, whether it would be a sin for you to vote for Obama.

Trust me, if you were in the group of pro-death left wingers who like to distort the clear teaching of the Church and twist it into support of socialism (which, oh by the way, has been condemned by every pope since Leo XIII) and mass homicide (which has been condemned since before the Didache, you would have been placed on my “ignore” list a long time ago.

And yes, check with your priest to see if it is permissible to vote for radical pro-death candidates who have actually been outspoken against (and voted accordingly) laws that would have protected babies that were born alive after a failed late-term abortion attempt. Multiple times. By all means ask. Please, ask your priest that question…

Or better yet, ask your bishop.

 

[irishpatrick]

In other words the poster should trust you and not the word of his/her priest.

Lurkers: ask your priest if it is a sin to vote for Obama.

Or you could go to a heavily slanted forum to gain information of how ot vote. Check the history of posters regarding nearly ANY ISSUE and you will find that they echo rightist ideology. Is this where you should go for advice?

Trust your priest.

Trust Jesus and His Church. Go to the source, Jesus and His Church/faith–see what the Lord and His Church/faith actually teach.

 

[ringil]

Trust Jesus and His Church. Go to the source, Jesus and His Church/faith–see what the Lord and His Church/faith actually teach.

This is excellent advice! Still if you are confused or want council you can certainly consult your pastor or your spiritual director. They are sure to give you non, or at least, less biased advice which you will find than over the internet.

I’m not telling anyone who to vote for. I’m saying that it’s not a sin to vote for a candidate with an incorrect position on Abortion or Gay Marriage.

The Bishops released an adendum to the original article on voting with an informed conscience as some confusion arose from the original.

I’m not so great with providing links though. . . . I know that some here were unhappy with that adendum but as it was written by the Bishops it would be an excellent resource.

 

[estesbob]

Trust Jesus and His Church. Go to the source, Jesus and His Church/faith–see what the Lord and His Church/faith actually teach.

I am afraid we are entering the usual pre-election “it doesnt matter what the Church teaches , my Priest told me it was ok” period .