Rioting aftermath in Kenosha

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JonNC said:
No, it isn’t a class issue, but if it is, we know which part of the American political spectrum is responsible: the party and philosophy that has been in charge for decades in the cities.
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I can see how class plays a role but I think the approach by the left is somewhat self defeating. If class was the uniting principle behind these things I think more of the lower class would get behind them. But race is played up to such a degree that you have trash like White Fragility being cited as a definitive source. Meanwhile most poor people in the US if I remember correctly are white.
 
Days like this when BLM seems to stand more for Burning, Looting and Mayhem instead of Black Lives Matter are not helping the movement in the greater picture.

Sure I can agree the shooting looks bad. But I can also agree the victim’s disobedience prior to the shooting also looks bad now that a second video has become public that shows him breaking free of the officers who had him restrained on the curb and then walking around the front of the SUV. Check out the new video as well as the original video here:

www.dailymail.co.uk

Jacob Blake is paralyzed from the waist down, his father says

Jacob Blake, the black man shot in the back by Wisonsin police as his three young sons watched on, is now paralyzed from the waist down after his body was riddled with bullets, his father says.
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk
 
Zzyzx_Road said:
the victim’s disobedience prior to the shooting also looks bad now that a second video has become public that shows him breaking free of the officers who had him restrained on the curb and then walking around the front of the SUV.
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I kind of figured to get shot seven times, he did something more than was being initially reported.

Obviously the police are trained that when somebody fights them off and then reaches into a car, they are in danger and they shoot the person. They are trained that if they don’t do that, they or another officer will die.
 
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StudentMI said:
But race is played up to such a degree that you have trash like White Fragility being cited as a definitive source. Meanwhile most poor people in the US if I remember correctly are white.
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Of course, and the median income of Asian Americans is higher than whites. Do we talk about “Asian Fragility”? This is not a race issue.
 
blackforest said:
I stand by what I said. Less police brutality = less rioting. It’s a pretty simple equation.
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Less violence and crime in the inner cities = less police brutality.

Both of these statements are true. Both come down to decades of poor governance in our inner cities.
 
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JonNC said:
Less violence and crime in the inner cities = less police brutality.
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Nobody “asks for” police brutality any more than they “ask for” a rape or mugging. Police brutality by its very definition is illegal.

If our law enforcement officials can’t even uphold the law, there is something deeply, systemically wrong.

Also, where is your evidence that Jacob Blake was being violent?
 
blackforest said:
Also, where is your evidence that Jacob Blake was being violent?
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Did you see the second video in which he is seen throwing two officers off of him after they had restrained him at the curb?

I linked to an article showing that second video a few posts back. Watch it first before you reply.
 
blackforest said:
Nobody “asks for” police brutality any more than they “ask for” a rape or mugging. Police brutality by its very definition is illegal.
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Nobody “asks for” rioting and looting, destroying the property of innocent citizens, many of whom are people of color.
This police officer is a government agent under the employment, leader, and direction of John Antamarian, the Democrat mayor of Kenosha.

As far as we know, the issue in this case, like the Floyd case, and like other cases is not race, but the belief that government Power takes primacy over individual rights.
 
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Looks to me like he was disobeying their instructions, and possibly resisting arrest. The policeman responded by summarily executing him in the street (or at least trying to). So the question is whether that is the kind of policing we want to have. I would say no.
 
TMC said:
Looks to me like he was disobeying their instructions, and possibly resisting arrest. The policeman responded by summarily executing him in the street (or at least trying to).
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This assumes facts not in evidence.

An execution is an intentional and premeditated act. Are you saying the police went into this event planning to kill him?
If so, are you willing to hold the chief and mayor accountable for it? They are directly responsible for the culture and practice of that police department.
TMC said:
So the question is whether that is the kind of policing we want to have. I would say no.
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I would generally agree that police shootings are not a good thing. I would also say that often, it is not their fault.
 
TMC said:
Looks to me like he was disobeying their instructions, and possibly resisting arrest. The policeman responded by summarily executing him in the street (or at least trying to). So the question is whether that is the kind of policing we want to have. I would say no.
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It’s a gray area.

Consider: a highly charged environment in which everything moves fast and then the act of breaking free and disobeying subsequent orders shouted at him put all officers on an extreme edge. There are only seconds to act, not minutes and hours as is common in discussion forums.

So on top of disobeying orders as he walks around the front of the SUV, he is seen reaching into the SUV. What the heck is he reaching in there for? First thought in every officer’s mind after all the blatant disobedience shown is he might be reaching for a weapon.

Because like it or not, that’s how officers are trained for this situation. After all, the officers cannot see where his hands are going. Sure there was no weapon there, but the officers only found that out afterwards. In the heat of the moment, what is the officer supposed to think?

The only thing I can find that was over the top on the officer’s part is the seven shots when two or three might have been enough. But even that is hard to say given that some arrestees have been known to keep going after getting shot a couple of times.

When someone blatantly disobeys police orders as we’ve seen in the videos, one has to wonder what the heck is going on when every rational person including nearly all blacks know better than to resist to the extent this man did.
 
JonNC said:
This assumes facts not in evidence.

An execution is an intentional and premeditated act. Are you saying the police went into this event planning to kill him?
If so, are you willing to hold the chief and mayor accountable for it? They are directly responsible for the culture and practice of that police department.
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I don’t think it does. Anyone that shoots someone that many times at close range is trying to kill them. Certainly that is a fair assumption to make.

As far as what is to be done, or who is to be held accountable, I think a lot more information is required to figure that out.
 
Zzyzx_Road said:
It’s a gray area.
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Absolutely ridiculous. Gunning an unarmed person down in the street is not a gray area. Did he deserve to be arrested? Maybe, can’t really tell from the video. Was he wrong to resist the police? Certainly seems like it from what we have. But the proper response to any of those is not to pump rounds into his back at point blank range.
 
Zzyzx_Road said:
Sure I can agree the shooting looks bad. But I can also agree the victim’s disobedience prior to the shooting also looks bad now that a second video has become public that shows him breaking free of the officers who had him restrained on the curb and then walking around the front of the SUV.
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None of that is justification for shooting him in the back, much less seven times. If you don’t want protests to turn into riots, then don’t let arrests turn into murders.
 
TMC said:
I don’t think it does. Anyone that shoots someone that many times at close range is trying to kill them. Certainly that is a fair assumption to make
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Why? Why did they shoot him that many times? That’s the evidence we don’t have. Without that evidence, we can assume all we want, but it doesn’t answer any questions. And it certainly isn’t a reason to riot and looting and destroy property not yours.
TMC said:
As far as what is to be done, or who is to be held accountable, I think a lot more information is required to figure that out.
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Of course, including how we view the police officers involved. We don’t have evidence of a summary execution.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
None of that is justification for shooting him in the back
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What would you do if you saw him reaching into the SUV and you didn’t have any idea what he was reaching for and why?

Remember the officers do not have the luxury of hindsight you are displaying here. Something that many are willfully blind to.
 
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