Rioting aftermath in Kenosha

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

None of that is justification for shooting him in the back, much less seven times. If you don’t want protests to turn into riots, then don’t let arrests turn into murders.

Murder? You believe it is murder? That makes the mayor an accessory.

It was attempted murder. That man isn’t dead yet.

 

[JonNC]

It was attempted murder. That man isn’t dead yet.

And the mayor was an accessory.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

None of that is justification for shooting him in the back

What would you do if you saw him reaching into the SUV and you didn’t have any idea what he was reaching for and why?

I am not a police officer. And if that officer didn’t have a better answer than to shoot the guy in the back seven times, he should not have been a police officer either.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

It was attempted murder. That man isn’t dead yet.

And the mayor was an accessory.

Only if that mayor gave that officer instructions to react that way. To some extent, the city itself, possibly including the mayor, might bear some of the responsibility if it is shown that proper training was not given to this officer. But that remains to be seen.

 

[TMC]

Why? Why did they shoot him that many times? That’s the evidence we don’t have. Without that evidence, we can assume all we want, but it doesn’t answer any questions. And it certainly isn’t a reason to riot and looting and destroy property not yours.

We can look with our own eyes and see what happened. Nothing happened between shot number 1 and shot number 7 that would explain why he would keep pulling the trigger.

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

I am not a police officer. And if that officer didn’t have a better answer than to shoot the guy in the back seven times, he should not have been a police officer either.

Don’t avoid the question.

If you’re saying he shouldn’t have been a police officer, then pray tell us how a police officer should have acted in that circumstance.

 

[JonNC]

Only if that mayor gave that officer instructions to react that way.

The mayor is his boss. The mayor sets the culture and practice in that department. Of course he is responsible for the instructions.
That’s the point I’ve made all along. These shootings almost always happen under progressive Democrat governments. Government power takes primacy over individual rights.

To some extent, the city itself, possibly including the mayor, might bear some of the responsibility if it is shown that proper training was not given to this officer.

It is the culture set by decades of progressive rule.

But that remains to be seen.

Really? You’ve jumped to the conclusion that the officer committed murder without all the evidence, but you’re willing to wait in the progressive Democrat mayor.

I say we wait on both.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

I am not a police officer. And if that officer didn’t have a better answer than to shoot the guy in the back seven times, he should not have been a police officer either.

Don’t avoid the question.

Why not? If I not qualified to answer the question, then I should not attempt it.

If you’re saying he shouldn’t have been a police officer, then pray tell us how a police officer should have acted in that circumstance.

I am also not a police trainer.

 

[JonNC]

We can look with our own eyes and see what happened. Nothing happened between shot number 1 and shot number 7 that would explain why he would keep pulling the trigger.

And you say this out of your long experience of the stress of that kind of situation?
Do you have all the evidence ?

If an intruder enters my house while I’m gone, I want my wife to use every round.

 

[TMC]

And you say this out of your long experience of the stress of that kind of situation?
Do you have all the evidence ?

Yes, I do. I spent over 20 years in the Marine Corps, and I have been in charge of people in much more stressful situations than that. I do not have ALL the evidence, but I have seen enough to switch the burden to whoever claims that level of force is justified.

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

Why not? If I not qualified to answer the question, then I should not attempt it.

Then what business do you have saying this officer should not have been a police officer in the first place? When you will not even come close to specifying what alternate course of action you might have done.

It’s just hand waving on your part now.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

Only if that mayor gave that officer instructions to react that way.

The mayor is his boss. The mayor sets the culture and practice in that department.

That is very indirect. The mayor does not usually get involved in the details of police training programs. That is more the responsibility of the chief of police, or whatever they call it in Kenosha.

These shootings almost always happen under progressive Democrat governments.

Yes, you always bring up that irrelevant non-causitive correlation. As I have explained many times, that is just the consequence of the fact that most big cities have a Democratic mayor. It does not prove that any Democratic vs. Republican policies cause those shootings.

But that remains to be seen.

Really? You’ve jumped to the conclusion that the officer committed murder without all the evidence, but you’re willing to wait in the progressive Democrat mayor.

Because that connection is unlikely. I don’t recall any police shooting being traced back to training that was specifically promoted by a Democratic mayor. But I do recall lots of cases where individual police officers, despite their training, did bad things.

 

[RidgeSprinter]

We can look with our own eyes and see what happened. Nothing happened between shot number 1 and shot number 7 that would explain why he would keep pulling the trigger.

Only conclusion I can come to he had murder on his mind and heart. Add that to the cowardice of shooting him in the back. No honor in that.

 

[JonNC]

I do not have ALL the evidence, but I have seen enough to switch the burden to whoever claims that level of force is justified.

I’ll wait for all the evidence.

 

[TMC]

I’ll wait for all the evidence.

You will never have all the evidence. How many dead bodies does it take to decide to act on enough evidence?

 

[blackforest]

Nobody “asks for” rioting and looting, destroying the property of innocent citizens, many of whom are people of color.

Of course not. I stated upthread that I don’t condone violent protests.

But look at it this way. I want to avoid people burglarizing my house. If it happens, I certainly didn’t “ask for it.” But it’s still a pretty darn good idea to lock the door and hide the valuables while I’m away on vacation.

By the way, another key difference is that unlike these cops, protesters are getting arrested.

This police officer is a government agent under the employment, leader, and direction of John Antamarian, the Democrat mayor of Kenosha.

What is your point?

As far as we know, the issue in this case, like the Floyd case, and like other cases is not race, but the belief that government Power takes primacy over individual rights.

I don’t know what was going through the officer’s mind when he shot an unarmed man seven - seven! - times in the back. I do know that it was wrong.

I kind of figured to get shot seven times, he did something more than was being initially reported.

If only Kenosha PD didn’t resist adopting body cams. Then we could have evidence of what these officers claimed transpired.

What I find downright disheartening is that this thread topic is focused on a response while pretending that the horrible violence that provoked it isn’t even a factor.

 

[JonNC]

That is very indirect. The mayor does not usually get involved in the details of police training programs.

It is very dir. a chain of command.

That is more the responsibility of the chief of police, or whatever they call it in Kenosha.

Who works directly for the mayor.

As I have explained many times, that is just the consequence of the fact that most big cities have a Democratic mayor. It does not prove that any Democratic vs. Republican policies cause those shootings.

You yourself have taken the opposite view regarding individuals rights v. government power. Of course it. Ones down to philosophy of government.

Because that connection is unlikely.

It is a direct connection.

I don’t recall any police shooting being traced back to training that was specifically promoted by a Democratic mayor.

They all should be. It is no coincidence which party is directly involved.

But I do recall lots of cases where individual police officers, despite their training, did bad things.

The mayor sets the culture and practice.

 

[JonNC]

Of course not. I stated upthread that I don’t condone violent protests.

We agree. I defend the right to peacefully protest.

But look at it this way. I want to avoid people burglarizing my house. If it happens, I certainly didn’t “ask for it.” But it’s still a pretty darn good idea to lock the door and hide the valuables while I’m away on vacation.

And have a firearm. A car dealership can’t do all of that.

By the way, another key difference is that unlike these cops, protesters are getting arrested.

How many have been arrested? All three cops in Minneapolis were arrested. The cop in Atlanta was, as I recall.

What is your point?

Two points:

1. if you are holding the officer accountable without all the evidence, why not the boss who sets the culture and practice?
2. it is no coincidence that virtually all of these events happen under progressive Democrat control.

I don’t know what was going through the officer’s mind when he shot an unarmed man seven - seven! - times in the back. I do know that it was wrong.

I’ll wait for the evidence.

 

[JonNC]

If only Kenosha PD didn’t resist adopting body cams. Then we could have evidence of what these officers claimed transpired.

The mayor makes that decision

 

[KMC]

1. if you are holding the officer accountable without all the evidence, why not the boss who sets the culture and practice?
2. it is no coincidence that virtually all of these events happen under progressive Democrat control.

1. Unless its Donald Trump, there is not a lot of desire for accountability
2. see 1)