Romney: Individual Mandate "Is A Tax"

  • Thread starter Thread starter gilliam
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
austenbosten said:
]

Just as the pursuit of happiness is a right, doesn’t mean other people are forced to make you happy. You have the right to pursue your own happiness. As for health care, you have the right to either
  • Get a job that offers health insurance
  • Buy health insurance
  • Save your money for health care expenses
  • Seek charity for healthcare
  • Maintain a healthly lifestyle
  • and others to name
But you do not have a right to force people to take care of you against their own will. 🙂
Click to expand...
This will fall on deaf ears, I’m aftaid. I’m afraid that personal responsibility is lost on some posters here.
 
Scott_Lafrance said:
With all due respect to the bishops, how people cover their health expenses are none of their business. They should stick to topics that they do have authority over that they AREN’T doing so well at, like teaching about salvation, the Eucharist, abortion, contraception, etc… you know, faith and morals. The things they have direct authority over.
Click to expand...
I thought faith and works are intertwined in Catholicism, that faith without works is dead. Social justice is an integral part of works, and there is thus no reason why bishops should not speak out about this as well as about faith and morals.

According to Judaism, charity in the form of sincere good deeds is even more important than faith. And in Catholicism, I seem to recall the statement in Corinthians: “faith, hope, and charity, these three, but the greatest of all is charity.”
 
JimR-OCDS said:
So are you saying that filing for bankruptcy and losing your home is the better option than having health insurance ?

Jim
Click to expand...
No. She is saying that many people are uninsured / underinsured by their own choices. People are also not saving their money for a rainy day or living a healthy life style.

If people actually lived responsibly in the first place, they would reduce their chances of bankruptcy.
 
Scott_Lafrance said:
Can you please define this “right”. I mean life is an easy right to define. God gave ME my life, no one else’s life. Even the live’s of my children are not mine, but rather a stewardship that I am accountable to God for. So, while I understand that having the right to access healthcare is a right that is intimately tied with the right to life, how can anyone claim that the PROVISIONING of healthcare is also a right? Unless a country establish a manner of provisioning healthcare to its citizens that does not violate the citizens equally valid property rights, how can you justify this, unless you also justify slavery? If you force one group of people to pay for the healthcare of another group of people, or force doctors to care for patients regardless of their ability to pay, then you are effectively making one group of people slaves to another group of people.

I thought we fought a great and bloody war over this…:confused:
Click to expand...
Maybe we’ll get to again! What’s 600,000 dead Americans, as long as we can enslave one another.
 
meltzerboy said:
I thought faith and works are intertwined in Catholicism, that faith without works is dead. Social justice is an integral part of works, and there is thus no reason why bishops should not speak out about this as well as about faith and morals.

According to Judaism, charity in the form of sincere good deeds is even more important than faith. And in Catholicism, I seem to recall the statement in Corinthians: “faith, hope, and charity, these three, but the greatest of all is charity.”
Click to expand...
Here we go again with the charity = taking someone’s money from them under the threat of fine or imprisonment.

If taxes are charity, how is it I can write off charitable donations (not as taxes) when I do my taxes?
 
meltzerboy said:
According to Judaism, charity in the form of sincere good deeds is even more important than faith. And in Catholicism, I seem to recall the statement in Corinthians: “faith, hope, and charity, these three, but the greatest of all is charity.”
Click to expand...
Charity, yes…but mandate- penalty- tax is not a good deed. Forced charity, that is government coercion is serfdom to the state.
 
Scott_Lafrance said:
Can you please define this “right”. I mean life is an easy right to define. God gave ME my life, no one else’s life. Even the live’s of my children are not mine, but rather a stewardship that I am accountable to God for. So, while I understand that having the right to access healthcare is a right that is intimately tied with the right to life, how can anyone claim that the PROVISIONING of healthcare is also a right? Unless a country establish a manner of provisioning healthcare to its citizens that does not violate the citizens equally valid property rights, how can you justify this, unless you also justify slavery? If you force one group of people to pay for the healthcare of another group of people, or force doctors to care for patients regardless of their ability to pay, then you are effectively making one group of people slaves to another group of people.

I thought we fought a great and bloody war over this…:confused:
Click to expand...
Great post! 👍

The only thing I would add is that it is also a noble goal to make health care and insurance afforadable to all. This is where people get carried away and want to force others to pay for / work for free with out regards to the economic realities of the situations.
 
scipio337 said:
Isn’t it odd that some can have such a narrow application with such a broad statement by the Church, and yet have a very broad application of “in the presence of proportionate reasons”?
Click to expand...
Can you link us to a specific Church teaching that says single payer violates subsidiarity?
 
stinkcat_14 said:
Can you link us to a specific Church teaching that says single payer violates subsidiarity?
Click to expand...
I can find no specific Church teaching that says a single payer system supports subsidiarity, either.

As JP II said:
By intervening directly and depriving society of its responsibility, the Social Assistance State leads to a loss of human energies and an inordinate increase of public agencies, which are dominated more by bureaucratic ways of thinking than by concern for serving their clients, and which are accompanied by an enormous increase in spending. In fact, it would appear that needs are best understood and satisfied by people who are closest to them and who act as neighbours to those in need…
Click to expand...
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_01051991_centesimus-annus_en.html

One must weight the good of the unisnured covered with the evil that this particular bill not only supports, but encourages.
 
scipio337 said:
I can find no specific Church teaching that says a single payer system supports subsidiarity, either.

As JP II said:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_01051991_centesimus-annus_en.html

One must weight the good of the unisnured covered with the evil that this particular bill not only supports, but encourages.
Click to expand...
That is of course, my point. The Church has said very little about the moral desirability of different ways for countries to organize health care. So whether we support a single payer system or not, we cannot definitively say that the Church is on our side.

For the record I never said that Obamacare was in anyway desirable.
 
He_Man said:
Here we go again with the charity = taking someone’s money from them under the threat of fine or imprisonment.

If taxes are charity, how is it I can write off charitable donations (not as taxes) when I do my taxes?
Click to expand...
I agree, since when did Catholic view of Social Justice become the Marxist view of Social Justice?

Like I said some Catholics worship Karl Marx, all others God.
 
austenbosten said:
I agree, since when did Catholic view of Social Justice become the Marxist view of Social Justice?

Like I said some Catholics worship Karl Marx, all others God.
Click to expand...
Actually, I think you are a little too restrictive, since I am sure there are Catholics who worship neither Karl Marx nor God, some may worship money, some may workship sex, there are a lot of other gods that people struggle with.
 
stinkcat_14 said:
Actually, I think you are a little too restrictive, since I am sure there are Catholics who worship neither Karl Marx nor God, some may worship money, some may workship sex, there are a lot of other gods that people struggle with.
Click to expand...
Would you rather have me say Satan? Which I guess Karl Marx was a Satanical acolyte since he called for people to become Atheists. 🤷
 
austenbosten said:
Would you rather have me say Satan? Which I guess Karl Marx was a Satanical acolyte since he called for people to become Atheists. 🤷
Click to expand...
That would probably be more accurate, because we all are satan worshipers when we sin.
 
CMatt25 said:
Nope wrong. Not everyone can just pick up and move from one state to another. It’s naive to think that’s the case. There may be financial, housing, family, employment, any number of considerations that prevent someone from moving. I wouldn’t mind escaping my Tea party governor and US Senator in the state I live in, and lets say having Senator Sanders of VT represent me in the US Senate. But I right now won’t be moving to VT.
Click to expand...
So you’re answer is to implement a forced solution on everyone in the country? What about the people who don’t like it? Not everyone can up and move to a different country.
 
Scott_Lafrance said:
So you’re answer is to implement a forced solution on everyone in the country? What about the people who don’t like it? Not everyone can up and move to a different country.
Click to expand...
You think the Leftist cares? Since when do Leftists ever care about anything but themselves? :hmmm:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top