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austenbosten
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If what you espoused were true then explain the extreme income gap in North Korea?
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iohannes13
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"Everybody complains about politicians. Everybody says they sk… *It’s what our system produces: Garbage in, garbage out. If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you’re going to get selfish, ignorant leaders. Term limits ain’t going to do any good; you’re just going to end up with a brand new bunch of selfish, ignorant Americans. So, maybe, maybe, maybe, it’s not the politicians who sk. Maybe something else s**ks around here… like, the public. "*
- George Carlin
- George Carlin
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CMatt25
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Yes I am. But as far as the “non-negotiables” and the big “A”, you must not have looked at my religion before you asked. But if I were Catholic, I suppose I’d deal with them like those Catholics here who say they support Obama. I’ve seen these Catholics say their bishops never have directed they must vote for a particular candidate. Or they’ve quoted words from the bishops’ Faithful Citizenship guide about how the bishops do not offer a “voters guide, scorecard of issues or direction on how to vote.” And that it warns against reducing Catholic moral concerns to one or two matters.
Also just out of curiosity because it is such a topic here, I recently googled the “Catholics for Obama” site just to see how they dealt with this question. Those Catholics in their statement spoke of many issues. Including Obama cutting taxes for the average middle-class family by $3,600 in his first term. Mentioned he saved over a million American jobs in the auto industry. Inherited the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression and has extended unemployment benefits. Signed into law health reform that enhances the security of Americans without adequate healthcare. They say as Catholics, they believe that every human being is made in the image of God. And discern that individually and as a nation, we share a moral obligation to care for one another. They say the President has advanced support for pregnant women and the Adoption Tax Credit. And like Sister Simone and the nuns on the bus they oppose the Ryan budget because they believe the Republican plan would shred the nation’s compassionate safety net, gutting Medicare, food assistance programs, Head Start, and many other programs while favoring tax cuts for the rich. Obama was against the Iraq war from the start. Has ended it and has a plan to bring our troops home from Afghanistan. And he signed the new START treaty which they say was a priority for Catholic bishops around the world, moving us closer to a world with no nuclear weapons.
I don’t know if those Catholics here and elsewhere who profess faithfulness and support Obama are correct that they can do so and be faithful or not. I just know there’s a lot of debate on CAF about it and differing answers given to the question. And I only know those who support him insist they can both be faithful and support Obama. But anyway how they deal with it is probably similar to how I would deal with it if my religion was Catholic.
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iohannes13
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“If God wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates.” – Jay Leno
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Tony_the_mad
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Many, many other liberal voices have been regularly posted on this forum as well. Why chose to listen to just one?
Of course I am lumping together a bunch of unrelated issues, that is how sane people vote. Politics is a multi-issue business; even when we vote on a single issue that doesn’t stop the politicians from voting on multiple issues. Single issue people are easily manipulated pawns when neither side has the power to change anything about the issue. There are times when you have to vote for a single issue and abortion is a strong enough issue to do so, but it won’t work because abortion is simply too big of an issue to solve with one party. We cannot win without winning over the democratic party.
As far as voting for a person who supports the right to infanticide, would you vote for Washington who supported the right to slavery (and held slaves)?
Well the last time a KKK was in the running for president he was a Republican, so I don’t think he can count on my vote. (He didn’t get hardly any Republican votes either.) Abortion is currently an intractable issue in our country. Pretending it is otherwise is tilting at windmills. We need an extended grassroots campaign that targets Republicans and Democrats equally.
Huh?
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ishii
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Your concept of free-market economics is wrong. Capitalism has rich and poor. But among the poor are the future rich. Capitalism gives people the opportunity to make a go of it - work hard, study hard, save, and get ahead. Think about what immigrants have done who came to AMerica: they worked their tails off and made a better future for themselves and their children. What we don’t need is “trickle down charity” which merely robs people of their incentive to work hard and get ahead. It is the risks of entrepenuers who invest their own money and others and who create businesses that hire people - encouraging more of that will help give the poor more opportunity. And that opportunity is better than any “redistribution of wealth”. The pie is not finite, Tony the Mad. We will help the poor by encouraging economic growth, removing needless regulations, and lowering or eliminating unecessary taxes. America saw strong economic growth in the 80’s and 90’s - even well into the 2000’s. If you tax too much - there will be no incentive to risk money and invest in new businesses. If you cap wealth - what’s the point of expanding the factory and hire more workers? As William F Buckley said, the problem with socialism is socialism. The problem with capitalism is capitalists. See the difference? Neither is perfect, but I’ll stick with capitalism - that includes ethical business owners who do the right thing over socialism with bureaucrats making the decisions - which doesn’t work.
Ishii
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migueltojose
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George was a very funny (and rich too) comedian. Being in the industry and the ‘hippie dippie’ man, his politics were weak. His livelihood depended on making fun of society and leaders. Society was a lot straighter and stiffer then. He helped loosen it up. At least he wasn’t as bad as Robin Williams… OMG… what a mess…
Aristotle (hence the trem aristocracy) believed that the aristocracy should lead and rule governments because they should know what’s best for everyone else and society as a whole. (Not at all like the French aristocracy or other false images of his ideal). The problem is… that’s what the democrats and liberals think is right (George Soros). They want to tell everyone else what to do because they know what is right because they are so much smarter than the rest of us. See Jessica Alba suggesting we should pledge allegiance to Obama. Sickening. Scary. I love freedom and loathe anything that restricts my freedom. Especially my freedom of religion. They think God is imaginary and religion is stupid (of course I’m generalizing, on a rant)… I really don’t like being told what to do. To a fault. I love my freedom and independence. It does require responsibility.
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CMatt25
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The gap and power between rich and poor has grown too large. Something needs to be done about it.
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ishii
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Because it is the most common excuse made for supporting a pro-infanticide president: “Obama helps the poor, so I can overlook his support for infanticide. The 2nd most common excuse is the nonsense you’re peddling: " Voting for Romney won’t end abortion so I am justified in voting for the pro-infanticide Obama.”
Obama supports infanticide. You support Obama. How does that make you feel?
No I wouldn’t vote for a president who owns slaves or supports slavery. Now how about answering my question: would you vote for a KKK member if he was a Democrat? Or would that disqualify him?
Abortion is intractable thanks to people who think and vote as you do. There is no justification for voting for a pro-infanticide president.
Ishii
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Tony_the_mad
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From wikipedia:
It would seem to me to be the perfect capitalist country to me. All the power at the top and none at the bottom except what trickles down.
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CMatt25
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No Ishii. Wrong. Think again. We are not fulfilling the gospel requirement to help the poor solely by voting for Obama. I know I certainly have never said such a thing.
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iohannes13
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Is it just me or are republicans giving lip-service to pro-life voters to get the vote? Romney was in favor of a woman deciding for herself but had a miraculous conversion to pro-life just in time for the elections? What about Bush? What was his record. Didn’t the republicans control the house and senate during his presidency? Abortion is still on the agenda. I think they just give lip-service. Catholics demand that the people you vote in deliver on their promises!!!
prolifeprofiles.com/george-w-bush-abortion
prolifeprofiles.com/george-w-bush-abortion
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austenbosten
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So all those Socialist countries espousing Marxism and Socialism like the Soviet Union, East Germany, Cuba, and Venezuela are really capitalist paradises?
You really have warped views Tony, you need to pick up a dictionary and re-read the definitions of Capitalism and Socialism cause you have the two mixed up.
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CMatt25
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CMatt25
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No it’s not just you.
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austenbosten
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Well the Lip-service Republicans in Ohio passed a powerful anti-abortion bill in the House. So no I don’t agree with that statement.
dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2011/06/28/heartbeat-bill-vote-today.html
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iohannes13
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humanevents.com/2002/06/24/white-house-lobbies-to-kill-snap-cloning-ban/
Do your homework. That is one in a closet full of similar actions.
This is romneys record.
prolifeprofiles.com/mitt-romney-abortion
In-san-i-ty: When you support a Republican who has done what you fear Obama might do.
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Tony_the_mad
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I never said the Obama helps the poor
. Obama does not support abortion, he supports the right to choose to have an abortion. It is is fine distinction but an important one when he has to not only lead but represent a nation who unfortunately feels the same way. A majority of people STILL support the right of people to have an abortion. Until that changes no amount of huffing and puffing will solve the issue of abortion.Obama supports abortion because our country supports abortion. I have seen nothing to show me that Obama is a leader in the abortion movement. If he was involved in the abortion industry in any way I would not vote for him, for example. If he pushed the opinion of the American people toward being more pro-choice I wouldn’t vote for him.
If you want to know how I feel about ANY politician, I don’t know if I feel great about ANY of them. That includes Obama and not just about abortion but many liberal issues as well.
I would not vote for a KKK member if he was a Democrat. I don’t know if I would have voted for George Washington because he was a slave owner, and not necessarily because he believed in people’s right to own slaves. It would depend on how much he supported slavery rights. Slavery was intractable at that time. There are quite a few things that would disqualify Obama for me. If he was an active supporter of abortion for instance, if he participated in the abortion industry in any way or if he was a lobbyist for the abortion industry. If he campaigned in a significant way on the abortion issue, such as Sebelius did, I wouldn’t vote for him.
But you did not answer MY question if you were in the 18th century when George Washington was running for President would you vote for him?
It is intractable because a majority of people (not including me) believe that it is ok for people to have a choice to murder their unborn child. Blaming me won’t make that inconvenient fact go away. If you somehow manage to get rid of abortion despite that large majority then I will praise you and gladly eat humble pie. But you are spitting in the wind.
If you want to change the direction of politics in a democracy you have to change the beliefs of the people. Prohibition taught us that if nothing else. Until we can change the beliefs of the common person then no amount of huffing and puffing will make a difference.
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Tony_the_mad
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I apologize for my sarcasm.
If you recall, though, this debate started with the issue of progressive taxation. None of the countries you give have anything like a progressive tax scheme in practice. Or if they do they don’t ‘transfer’ enough wealth back to the bottom so that they can spend it sending it back to the top.
Communism and socialism are not related other than some historical ties. Not that I am a socialist by any stretch of imagination. Socialism typically wants more control over the details, I just want to keep the wealth moving from where it likes to stagnate to where it can be quickly pumped back up to the top. I don’t want to destroy nor control capitalism I just want to tame it a little and keeping its more destructive side under check.
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Tony_the_mad
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In fairness what Mr. Romney has done is not necessarily what he will do as President. I think he will have much less latitude to do remotely pro-choice. My guess is that there will be more than a few things done under a President Romney to help restrict abortion, but that they will be mostly symbolic nibbling at the edges. There just isn’t the political will in this country, though, to do more than that unless the Republicans want to commit political suicide.
Perhaps Romney will become as strong as LBJ was in promoting and signing laws for civil rights. That cost the Democrats badly for decades, they still haven’t won any part of the south back which they used to control with the dixiecrats, but it was the right thing to do.
Perhaps, Romney and a Republican controlled congress will act aggressively against abortion. I can’t see it happening, even the tea partyers seem to care more about other issues such as taxation than abortion. There is no evidence that they will do so, they have talked about it for decades, and have had plenty of opportunities to put their money where their mouth is, but so far…
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