Russia will be converted?

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bones_IV:
To mention Russia specifically would have insulted them, for they have a Christian heritage. But John Paul did have Russia in mind in the consecration in 1984. Plus, communism fell in Russia in 1991. How you do answer that? There is no evidence that Vatican state dept disuaded JPII from mentioning Russia. Father Serpa has said on many occasions, that Fatima is a private revelation and is subject to the vicar of Christ on earth. IT IS NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND, trth_skr. The pope has full authority regarding the interpretation of private revelations and their implentation you have no authority what so ever to say otherwise trth_skr. It is not for us to second guess his desicions on these matters. Our Lady promised us a period of peace not peace without end. You seem to have a very nationalistic interpretation of things.
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I agree, there is nothing I nor you can do about it, except petition the pope. Fr. Gruner has made this his life’s mission.

Communism falling is a victory of man. Very little spiritually significant has come out of it. Maybe the fall of communism is the smaller effect caused by the consecration of the world.

It is up to the local Bishop in Portugal to determine the validity of the message. He did. The message said to consecrate Russia, and requested a pope do it. Pius XII did do it, but not in concert with the world’s Bishops, as requested to Sr. Lucia later. After that only the world has been consecrated.

I am not laying blame on anyone, except to say the obvious- it was not done as requested. I do not understand the pope’s thinking. I do not condemn in my mind any of the popes who failed to do it in . If in fact it was done, and accepted in heaven, and I am wrong, so be it. I would be more than happy to be wrong about this.

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
 
Also, trth_skr, why don’t you consider that Fr. Dhanis on many occasions refused to study the original Fatima archives or consult other documents made available to him by the bishop of Leiria. He also refused to go to the Carmel of Coimbra to interrogate Sister Lucy himself. Finally when his thesis on Fatima was refuted many times by Fatima experts, he evaded important issues and would not address their main arguments, so that he woiuld have to draw his false thesis. Fr. Dhanis refused to investigate the matter, he was dishonest and was certainly no scholar at that either.
 
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trth_skr:
I agree, there is nothing I nor you can do about it, except petition the pope. Fr. Gruner has made this his life’s mission.

Communism falling is a victory of man. Very little spiritually significant has come out of it. Maybe the fall of communism is the smaller effect caused by the consecration of the world.

It is up to the local Bishop in Portugal to determine the validity of the message. He did. The message said to consecrate Russia, and requested a pope do it. Pius XII did do it, but not in concert with the world’s Bishops, as requested to Sr. Lucia later. After that only the world has been consecrated.

I am not laying blame on anyone, except to say the obvious- it was not done as requested. I do not understand the pope’s thinking. I do not condemn in my mind any of the popes who failed to do it in . If in fact it was done, and accepted in heaven, and I am wrong, so be it. I would be more than happy to be wrong about this.

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
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The fall of communism is a victory of man? That is downright insulting. At least we don’t have the threat of a world war.
I find Father Fox more reliable than the heretic Father Gruner. Father Gruner has contradicted and slandered Sister Lucy.
Here’s Father Fox’s website.

link

You should offer your credentials if you think that the Vatican is wrong on this one.
 
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trth_skr:
The consecration was not doctrinal or dogmatic. It was not a teaching of the pope. We can dispute it, and I purposely stated it was my persoanl opinion.

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
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It’s interesting that the quote doesn’t mention anything about doctrine or dogma. Pope Pius must have been wrong. 😉
 
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trth_skr:
That may be possible. First, it was too late. Second Lucia said it would have “an” effect,. The reason it did not have the full effect may have been because it was too late, and possibly [not stated] that it was not done as requested. Sr. Lucia has been on record many times saying that Russia must be specified, not the world. I did say the consecration may have some fruit (effect), but I suspect not the full effect expected were it done as requested.

Do you dismiss that:
  1. Russia was not mentioned?
  2. That there were reports that many Bishops would not cooperate in consecrating Russia?
  3. That the Vatican state dept. disuaded JPII from mentioning Russia?
Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
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Uh, where did she specifically specify “not the world”? Did she actually say that “the world”,which includes Russia, was not enough? I think it’s funny that they JPII actually went beyond what was asked and people aren’t happy. My gosh, how is that people have a problem with the entire world being consecrated to her. Do you actually think Mary or Our Lord is upset about that?
 
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trth_skr:
The consecration was not doctrinal or dogmatic. It was not a teaching of the pope. We can dispute it, and I purposely stated it was my persoanl opinion.
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St. Pius X stated in the same allocution, “**If one loves the Pope, one does not stop to ask the precise limits to which this duty of obedience extends.” **Thus, the context of Pope St. Pius X’s allocution was not limited to dissent in matter doctrinal or dogmatic as you have presumed.

I agree with him and find that such personal opinion lacks holiness when it dissents with the pope.
 
As for the consecration itself…

A consecration is simply a prayer. A prayer cannot be “invalid” as if it were a Holy Sacrament, although it seems some seem to treat it as such. With such a prayer, any grace bestowed by God comes *ex opere operantis *not ex opere operato as with the Holy Sacraments. It is not like a Holy Sacrament, which requires valid form, matter, and intent for the grace to be bestowed *ex opere operato. *So the whole argument of validity is absurd.

You want to see an increase in conversion for those in Russia and for all the world? Then pray for it. But don’t pretend a consecration bestows grace ex opere operato, as this is contary to Catholic theology.
 
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bear06:
Uh, where did she specifically specify “not the world”? Did she actually say that “the world”,which includes Russia, was not enough? I think it’s funny that they JPII actually went beyond what was asked and people aren’t happy. My gosh, how is that people have a problem with the entire world being consecrated to her. Do you actually think Mary or Our Lord is upset about that?
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Let me create a scenario…

You are part of a family, one member of perhaps 10 or more.

You are causing big problems in your family, and throughout the neighborhood.

A good priest prays for your conversion, and the Holy Spirit tells him to publically consecrate or even exorcise you.

For whatever reason, he waits and waits.

Then, finally, the neighborhood hears he prayed for “a” family.

Not really publically, and your name is not mentioned.

Would the Holy Spirit accept the priests actions? Yes

Would the Holy Spirit say those actions were as He directed? :hmmm:
 
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MrS:
Let me create a scenario…

You are part of a family, one member of perhaps 10 or more.

You are causing big problems in your family, and throughout the neighborhood.

A good priest prays for your conversion, and the Holy Spirit tells him to publically consecrate or even exorcise you.

For whatever reason, he waits and waits.

Then, finally, the neighborhood hears he prayed for “a” family.

Not really publically, and your name is not mentioned.

Would the Holy Spirit accept the priests actions? Yes

Would the Holy Spirit say those actions were as He directed? :hmmm:
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I believe the instruction was to consecrate Russia in union with the bishops of the world. I don’t think the wording to be used was prescribed. The question is did God accept the consecration and according to Sr. Lucia it was a yes. You have yet to show proof that it didn’t happen and that the Vatican is lying about that., right? Sigh! It would be nice if some of you would just admit that the Holy Spirit might just have been guiding JPII to consecrate Russia the way he did.

You are comparing apples to oranges, BTW. You are saying the Holy Spirit asked for a consecration or exorcism and he didn’t do it at all. A consecration by the Holy Father was done. You are just questioning if it was done the right way. I don’t think you’re questioning whether one was done at all.
 
I’ve done a lot of reading on the message of Fatima recently, largely because of this thread and largely because my daughter might get an opportunity to go there in just a few weeks with her school.

What I have come to realize it how beautiful the story is. The question on whether Russia was appropriatelyy consecrated or not has become, to me, a trivial one. From my most recent studies I must believe it was. It boils down to two things; logic and faith. Not only faith in our Christian belief but faith in our deceased Holy Father, faith in our Blessed Mother and faith in Sister Lucia.

Frankly speaking if Pope JPII fell short of our Blessed Mothers wishes he must have done it delibrately (hence the logic). Which, is illogical. JPII adored our Lady. Loved her with all his heart and soul. JPII had the best wishes at the core of his heart for humanity. JPII did what he felt he was compelled to do in line with the church, our Blessed Mother and Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior. JPII didn’t give a passing thought to offending anybody when compared to his desire to do what he felt he needed to do.

I’ve come to believe that following the consecration (please read the text of the consecration, it is in this thread) the demise of the Soviet Union was a result of JPII obeying the wishes of our Blessed Mother, which, of course, he could do no other. Sister Lucia’s comments following are nothing but genuine. The world was saved from a horrendous calamity of which we were on the brink.

In 1984 my first daughter was born. Around that time or a couple of years later I happened across the movie one night called “The Day After” I believe. It was about a nuclear exchange with the Soviet Union. I never gave much thought to the true potential of this happening until I happedn across this movie. I recall being horrified. I had just had a beautifull baby girl and all I could think, all I could rationalize was the realistic potenial, in fact the likelyhood of this happening. This potenial (at this scale) crumbled because of Fatima; because of JPII honoring the wishes of our Blessed Mother.

One mans opinion.

Mr Sugneis (spel) from all I can gather, appear to lavish in controversy. When pitted against JPII and Sister Lucia, Mr Sugenis’ opinion is insignificant.
 
tiny'(name removed by moderator)my:
She changed the rosary! QUOTE]
She did no such thing. She added to the Rosary. Do you believe the line : “O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, and lead us all to salvation, especially those most in need of thy mercy,” is demonic. (BTW, Im not sure if the line, “lead us all to salvation”, is worded correctly here, please feel free to correct me).
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Andrew_11:
tiny'(name removed by moderator)my:
She changed the rosary! QUOTE]
She did no such thing. She added to the Rosary. Do you believe the line : “O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, and lead us all to salvation, especially those most in need of thy mercy,” is demonic. (BTW, Im not sure if the line, “lead us all to salvation”, is worded correctly here, please feel free to correct me).
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I believe it is “lead all souls to heaven”.
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I really love that addition. It may be my favorite prayer of the Rosary. I am always in need to pray for His mercy, because my sins, even venial, are offensive to His Eternal Perfection, His Holiness and only His Mercy can save me.

Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell and lead all souls to heaven.

Amen
 
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Mijoy2:
…

Frankly speaking if Pope JPII fell short of our Blessed Mothers wishes he must have done it delibrately (hence the logic).
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And perhaps with great anguish and pain.

Speaking oif logic, it is ilogical that after Mary asked to have Russia consecrated multiple times, the first thing JPII would think of in response is consecrating the world (as the Vatican website states).
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Mijoy2:
Which, is illogical.
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Peter denied Christ 3 times.
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Mijoy2:
JPII adored our Lady. Loved her with all his heart and soul. JPII had the best wishes at the core of his heart for humanity.
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No one is questioning that.
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Mijoy2:
JPII did what he felt he was compelled to do …

I’ve come to believe that following the consecration (please read the text of the consecration, it is in this thread) the demise of the Soviet Union was a result of JPII obeying the wishes of our Blessed Mother, which, of course, he could do no other.
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It is possible that the consecration of the world led to the demise of the Soviet Union. this still does not mean it satisfied Mary’s request to consecrate Russia. Even if it is not the consecration Mary requested, it does not mean it went unnoticed in Heaven.
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Mijoy2:
Sister Lucia’s comments following are nothing but genuine. The world was saved from a horrendous calamity of which we were on the brink.
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I think we may still be on the brink.
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Mijoy2:
In 1984 my first daughter was born. Around that time or a couple of years later I happened across the movie one night called “The Day After” I believe. It was about a nuclear exchange … This potenial (at this scale) crumbled because of Fatima; because of JPII honoring the wishes of our Blessed Mother.
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China has nuclear capabilities. Russia still does, and is unstable. Iran is developing it. Pakistan (and India) have developed it. So does N. Korea.
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Mijoy2:
One mans opinion.
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Another’s.
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Mijoy2:
Mr Sugneis (spel) from all I can gather, appear to lavish in controversy…
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Or in truth. I admire him for sticking to the truth and facts, even against what many other want to believe, even under great personal attack from many other apologists.
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Mijoy2:
When pitted against JPII and Sister Lucia, Mr Sugenis’ opinion is insignificant.
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Sungenis speaks straight and factually.

The words of JPII and Sr. Lucia have been filtered and interpreted, recast, etc. Sr. Lucia especially was kept practically under house arrest for decades. If we actually had JPII and Sr. Lucia here, we could probably come to a reasonable conclusion very quickly.

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
 
Sungenis speaks straight and factually.

The words of JPII and Sr. Lucia have been filtered and interpreted, recast, etc. Sr. Lucia especially was kept practically under house arrest for decades. If we actually had JPII and Sr. Lucia here, we could probably come to a reasonable conclusion very quickly.
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According to whom? What is your proof she was under house arrest? She was just chatting with Mel Gibson not too long ago. I seriously doubt it would do any good to Sr. Lucia or JPII since some would just come up with more wild conspiracy theories to dismiss what they said.

Sugenis still speaks of the typed letter and yet has no proof that it was typed. There’s fact for you.
 
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trth_skr:
And what exactly did the falling of the wall accomplish in terms of repentance and conversions? Nothing.
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TruthSeeker - the falling of the wall and the Communist regime allows the Russian nation to worship Jesus and Mary - you must recognise that at least.

The prophetic vision of Fatima could never be fulfilled under Communism - I hope that is obvious to you also.

I believe the wall coming down is the first step in the realisation of the prophetic vision of Fatima. But we must all continue to say the Rosary daily and make the 1st 5 Saturdays for the conversion of sinners and of Russia so that the Prophecy will come true - sooner rather than later.

I know the Church’s word on this issue is not infallible, but it really amazes me why you doubt the word of your own Church on such an important issue - do you question every fallible tradition of the Church? - I sincerely hope not.

“The power of this consecration lasts for all time and embraces all individuals, peoples and nations. It overcomes every evil that the spirit of darkness is able to awaken, and has in fact awakened in our times, in the heart of man and in his history.”
Third Fatima Secret, Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Vatican, June 26, 2000

catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=2843

For your own sake and that of others, put your pride aside TruthSeeker. The Church has already found the Truth for you, I pray you make an act of Faith and accept the word of your Church on this issue.
 
The Second Vision at Fatima, June 13, 1917

Lucia’s description of the Lady:

“The clothes were: a white cloak which went from the head to the bottom of the skirt; it was golden from the waist to below the ropes, the gold crossing it from top to bottom and on the edges the gold was more together. The skirt was all white and golden in lines going down and crossing, but it only came down to her knees; she wore a white coat, with no gold, having on her wrists only two or three threads; she wore no shoes; she had white socks on, with no gold; on her neck she had a gold necklace with a medallion; her hands were raised; she had some very **small earrings in her ears ** which were very close to the earlobes; she separated her hands when she spoke; she had black eyes; she was of medium stature.” (emphasis mine)

The detail about the skirt going down only as far as the knees is curious, and prompted Moisés Espírito Santo, a Jewish-Portuguese sociologist, to attempt to connect old beliefs about the Fatimid Moors and this apparition, since he interpreted the description to be that of Fatima, the daughter of Mohammed. His book The Almohads and the Apparitions of Fatima was translated by the Iranian embassy embassy in Lisbon and then circulated widely in Iran. Santo believes Fatima was named by Berber devotees of Almodah, a fundamental Islamic sect in North Africa in the 10th c century.

The priest wrote down in his notes that the Lady had worn a skirt that went down only to her knees. Later, in official testimony, the priest ignored these details, which were only published in 1992.

In the Documentação Crítica de Fátima, Doc. 2, pp. 11-12 Cónego Formigão, who also participated in the inquiries, said:

"Jacinta declares that Our Lady’s dress goes down only to her knees. Our Lady can only appear dressed, obviously, in the most decent and modest way. The dress would have to come down to her feet. Any other way constitutes the most serious obstacle to the supernaturalism of the apparition and makes us think that it is a mystification prepared by the Spirit of Darkness. But how can we explain the belief of so many thousands of people, their living faith and burning piety, the modesty and the composure they show in all their acts, the silence and behavior of the crowd, the numerous and astonishing conversions caused by the events, the appearance of extraordinary signs in the sky and on the earth, verified by thousands of witnesses? How can we explain, I repeat, all these facts and conciliate them with divine providence and the laws that rule the supernatural world, above all after the establishment of Christianity, if the Demon is the cause of such events? (Documentação, Doc. 7, pp. 66/67)

This is why we don’t have to believe in private apparitions, no matter the status of churchmen who do. It is called “primacy of conscience.”

CCC 1782: Man has the right to act in conscience and freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. “He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters.” DH 3 par. 2.

My conscience (litterally meaning with science) tells me that this is not the Blessed Mother.
 
TM, nobody said you have to believe it. That said, the Miracle of the Sun was seen far and wide and there’s much evidence to prove it was true. Besides, while TS and Andrew don’t want to believe the Vatican on the Consecration, I’m sure they’d wholeheartedly tell you that you should believe this one. 👍 Several popes have said that it was a real event. I don’t second guess several popes!

I also don’t understand why you are quoting Moisés Espírito Santo. He also makes unsubstantiated claims. Who is he? What is his motivation? Who is Cónego Formigão? Where does he get his info? I’m sure you can see where I’m going with this. Besides that, I’ll take the Vatican over the “Fatima for Agnostics” website anyday.
 
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