S.F. Catholic Church priest bans girls as altar servers

[Corki]

I do not think so, except in practical matters, namely, that no one person can be forced to serve altar and any determined priest could simply not choose girls. However, the bishop also could simply reassign such a priest. But as to the rule, that would be set by the bishop and he does not need the permission of the priest to say that altar girls will be permitted. The priest is only the representative of the bishop. He has not authority in a parish that he does not derive directly from the bishops. He does have certain personal rights as a priest, but they do not extend to the parish.

And I just can’t see any Bishop making a demand that a particular parish or a particular priest use girls as altar servers. There are no requirements that a Mass even have altar servers and the Bishops have, for all of my life, left it up to the pastor. This includes whether to have servers, youth or adult, albs or cassock/surplice, how many, what age, how they process, who does the scheduling, and the list goes on. With all the real liturgical abuse that often doesn’t get the Bishops attention, it doesn’t make sense that a Bishop would all of a sudden decide to micromanage the Mass over this one narrow issue. Especially since a given priest could just say “ok, I don’t need altar servers” and that would be the end of it. Have you ever heard, for example, of a Bishop demanding that a parish use both men and women as readers? The reader is an actual role in the liturgy while altar server is not.

 

[ProVobis]

We are fifty years post VII. the world is entirely different due to the mass media including social media and the increase in an educated population. If people are coming back, it is because of the Francis Effect. My friends who are returning, or considering returning, are doing so because of the Church, once again, stressing social justice and living out the Gospels of Our Lord instead of being the Church of “No”. The glass half full is much more attractive than the glass half empty. Yes,I’m a Pollyanna - so be it!

But for how long? Poland increased its Catholicism (for lack of better word) when JPII was Pope but has declined since he died. One Pope doesn’t make or break the Church.

 

[otjm]

But for how long? Poland increased its Catholicism (for lack of better word) when JPII was Pope but has declined since he died. One Pope doesn’t make or break the Church.

John Paul 2 was made Pope over 36 years ago, and it was some time after that before Poland became free of communist rule. If we take the election in 1990 as the start from under Communist control, that leaves 24 years of more openness to the world, and thus to secularism. and with the rapidity of information any more, that is hardly a short time for the infection to start. Much has been said about the strength of Polish faith in the face of conflict and repression; lift the repression, and changes start…

You are right that one Pope does not make or break the Church; and each will have their influence, often in different factions of the Church. And as one dies and another takes his place, that influence will wane in one are and rise in another.

 

[SWolf]

We are fifty years post VII. the world is entirely different due to the mass media including social media and the increase in an educated population. If people are coming back, it is because of the Francis Effect. My friends who are returning, or considering returning, are doing so because of the Church, once again, stressing social justice and living out the Gospels of Our Lord instead of being the Church of “No”. The glass half full is much more attractive than the glass half empty. Yes,I’m a Pollyanna - so be it!

There is no “Francis Effect”:

pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/11/25/no-clear-pope-francis-effect-among-u-s-catholics/

• Not wanting babies chopped up in the womb seems like social justice.
• Speaking against divorce and for family values seems like social justice
• Emphasizing proper VOLUNTARY tithing seems like social justice
• Preaching asgainst pornography seems like social justice.

Churches have been doing this for ages.

Or do you have another flavor of social justice?

He’s popular, but that popularity isn’t up-ticking one of the most important indicators of a Catholic life, Mass attendance.

 

[lanark]

Just my two cents here on the ‘Francis effect’: I’ve been looking to convert for a few years now, I had almost made up my mind about it before Francis came. Now everything seems up in the air. Under Benedict there seemed to be hope that the Church would fix itself and repair the damage from the damaging interpretations of the ambiguous elements in Vatican 2 documents, but under Francis I see the exact opposite. I’m waiting for him to explicitly change dogma. I almost want him to, then I can be absolutely sure that Catholicism is false and I can stop trying to convince myself that this religion is true. Maybe I’ll become a wayward deist or something. Or a protestant. :bigyikes:

On the topic of altar girls, by the way, I think it’s very wise to stop that practice.

 

[Catholic_farmer]

I think it’s fine to leave this up to the discretion of the priests. If the parish isn’t happy, they should speak to their priest. Why is this a news story? Probably another attempt to show the Church in a bad light. Honestly, SFGate has proven to be quite sensational and enjoys anything that shows Catholics negatively.

 

[KSU]

Just my two cents here on the ‘Francis effect’: I’ve been looking to convert for a few years now, I had almost made up my mind about it before Francis came. Now everything seems up in the air. Under Benedict there seemed to be hope that the Church would fix itself and repair the damage from the damaging interpretations of the ambiguous elements in Vatican 2 documents, but under Francis I see the exact opposite. I’m waiting for him to explicitly change dogma. I almost want him to, then I can be absolutely sure that Catholicism is false and I can stop trying to convince myself that this religion is true. Maybe I’ll become a wayward deist or something. Or a protestant. :bigyikes:

On the topic of altar girls, by the way, I think it’s very wise to stop that practice.

My friend, I have great news for you. Listen up: Francis absolutely, positively will not change ANY Church teaching. He has no intention of doing so, he has no authority to do so, and best of all he does not want to. No-- the best of all is that the Holy Spirit is still in control, and Hell and all its demons can’t destroy the Church or even one of its teachings.That is basic Catholicism 101, so if you have any interest at all in Catholicism, learn the basics first; it will raise your spirits. For goodness sake, don’t believe the lies and propaganda you read in the secular media (and elsewhere) about Francis.

Yes, his self-confessed recklessness with words during informal interviews sometimes drives us nuts. But, he knows that is a weakness of his and has his press people clear it up–provided they can translate into English, at which some are embarrassingly bad.

Trust me, after his reign, the Church will be better, larger and stronger. I’ve been around this beautiful gift of God, Our Mother the Church, for over 75 years. I am a rock-solid, traditional, Polish Sister-educated Catholic (there are none better) and I know what I’m talking about. Dissidents on this board, especially the so-called feminists, don’t like traditional-based posts, but that just confirms my confidence in the truth.

As for your correct take on the alter girl issue, don’t be confused by the anti-Church chatter you see here from some folks from time to time. Depend on what the Vatican, Cardinal Burke, Father Illo and his Archbishop teach us. For example, no priest can be forced by a bishop, or conference of bishops, to use alter girls if he sees that it’s best not to.

This site is a great forum to learn the truth about the Church; just be able to distinguish between fact and fiction in the free-for-all threads such as this one. Find yourself a traditional (small T) priest (they are becoming a lot more prevalent now) who will be happy to help you on your quest for the truth.

 

[lanark]

Thanks for the advice, KSU. I liked your post a lot.

As for the altar girls, again, I think Cardinal Burke already made a very solid case for why boys should be back in business.

 

[religioussoup]

Dissidents on this board, especially the so-called feminists, don’t like traditional-based posts, but that just confirms my confidence in the truth.

What is a “so-called feminist”? I am a feminist and I am absolutely not afraid to be one.

Peace be with you, for that is an entirely new topic.

 

[Havard]

I think it’s fine to leave this up to the discretion of the priests. If the parish isn’t happy, they should speak to their priest. Why is this a news story? Probably another attempt to show the Church in a bad light. Honestly, SFGate has proven to be quite sensational and enjoys anything that shows Catholics negatively.

Yeah, SFgate is produced by the San Francisco Chronicle. When it comes to social issues, I find them completely unable to even understand where Archbishop Cordileone is coming from. It’s like John Madden and Dick Vitale analyzing a cricket test match.

 

[Corki]

What is a “so-called feminist”? I am a feminist and I am absolutely not afraid to be one.

Peace be with you, for that is an entirely new topic.

Yes, that is a totally new topic but I’ll bite. A “so-called feminist” is someone who sees femininity in terms of a victim/aggressor winner/loser dichotomy rather than something more like that described in Mulieris Dignitatem.

 

[KSU]

Yes, that is a totally new topic but I’ll bite. A “so-called feminist” is someone who sees femininity in terms of a victim/aggressor winner/loser dichotomy rather than something more like that described in Mulieris Dignitatem.

A totally new topic; yes, it’s a separate issue, but you will agree, also no, because modern-day, so-called feminists are a driving force behind the vitriol and opposition regarding Church policy on female servers.

True feminism is of course found in women as varied as the Mother of God, Mother Angelica and St. Catherine of Siena. There obviously would be no Church as instituted by Christ without such women, including one of my favorites–the Little Flower. When the neo-feminists get to heaven they can tell God how wrong He was and how they would have devised a better church.

 

[NeedsMercy]

So these women have no power within the Church?

I **never **said that. In fact, I never spoke about the women you mentioned at all.

 

[NeedsMercy]

Let us see if we can reach some common ground.

1. Do you believe we need more Priests?
2. Do you believe there is an actual shortage of Priests?
3. Do you believe that men, and only men, can become Priests?
4. Do you believe that the Church has made it infallibly clear that only men can be Priests?

(for my part, I answer yes to all of the above)

Perhaps you can first tell me what bearing this has on the question of whether or not the presence of female altar servers dissuades men from the priesthood…

 

[NeedsMercy]

Neither is there any proof that young men are not dissuaded on some level. I hardly think you can box it in like this since the volumes written about the feminization of the Church are vast. And the influence wide. There is a period of time when healthy child development in traditional families includes a strong assertion of gender. Both our boys went through a period of thinking “the girls had cooties” and wanted absolutely nothing to do with them. This is a temporary, natural and healthy phase. It is not unusual for priests (and parents) to hear grumblings from the boys that serving is “too girly.”

There’s also no proof that the moon is made of green cheese, but you cannot assume that it is just because there is no proof to the contrary. This is Logic 101.

I’m not sure what you mean about “box[ing] it in” since Illo himself says that the question was part of his rationale for his decision.

I do not believe in the so-called “feminization” of the Church that is being promulgated these days by Burke and “The New Emangelization”. There are no “vast volumes” written about it. Apparently, some in the Church (and her hierarchy) have not outgrown the phase in which they believe that girls have cooties

 

[NeedsMercy]

How do you define “position of power,” exactly?

Let’s see, just off the top of my head: the power to celebrate Mass, perform the sacraments, have a say in the interpretation of doctrine, pick Popes…

 

[otjm]

Just my two cents here on the ‘Francis effect’: I’ve been looking to convert for a few years now, I had almost made up my mind about it before Francis came. Now everything seems up in the air. Under Benedict there seemed to be hope that the Church would fix itself and repair the damage from the damaging interpretations of the ambiguous elements in Vatican 2 documents, but under Francis I see the exact opposite. I’m waiting for him to explicitly change dogma. I almost want him to, then I can be absolutely sure that Catholicism is false and I can stop trying to convince myself that this religion is true. Maybe I’ll become a wayward deist or something. Or a protestant. :bigyikes:

On the topic of altar girls, by the way, I think it’s very wise to stop that practice.

Vatican 2 is not ambiguous. The problem is not Vatican 2; it is the actions of those in the late 1960’s and the 1970’s, and into the 1980’s, which simply ignored Vatican 2 ande went off in their own directions.

And proof of that is the example of Poland, where the documents of Vatican 2 were studied and applied, with none of the chaos that went on in "Europe and the northern hemisphere of the Americas.

There is still some residual of that chaos, but it is receding; more damaging perhaps has been the acceptance of the secularism so rampant in the US, Canada and Europe; otherwise how does one explain that the Protestant mainline churches have had as bad or greater losses than the Church?

The Catholic “protestors” are now well beyond graying; they are dying. And we have seen the change in the priests being ordained, who have been called the “John Paul 2” priests. It has been 2+ generations getting to this point; and it will take at least 2+ generations to get to a clearly better point; but it is occurring. It just is not as obvious when you are in the middle of the change. Perspective is difficult.

Suggestion: join RCIA and move a bit closer to converting. The door is open.

 

[otjm]

There’s also no proof that the moon is made of green cheese, but you cannot assume that it is just because there is no proof to the contrary. This is Logic 101.

I’m not sure what you mean about “box[ing] it in” since Illo himself says that the question was part of his rationale for his decision.

I do not believe in the so-called “feminization” of the Church that is being promulgated these days by Burke and “The New Emangelization”. There are no “vast volumes” written about it. Apparently, some in the Church (and her hierarchy) have not outgrown the phase in which they believe that girls have cooties

Cardinal Burke was entirely within his right to say that girls may not serve on the altar…

However, I would submit that there far, far more issues to be dealt with than whether or not girls serve on the altar.

I happened to have had girls, not boys, for children; but had I had a boy and he whined about serving with a girl, that would have been brought to such an abrupt halt that he might have suffered some form of dislocation. We had the idiot savant in the 60’s telling us how to raise children, and the effect has been totally overblown since then. If parents would parent instead of worrying about how tender their children’s psyches are, there would be less chaos.

Secularism, the failure of parents to even consider that a boy child might have a vocation to the priesthood, the hyper sexualized society we live in, the media which treats women as sex objects and a whole host of other issues are at play in children’s and teenagers’ lives. Teen pregnancy exploded, and continues at an astronomical rate - and what time are teens getting pregnant? Between the time high school classes end and parents return home from work. There are more issues I could list, but the point should be clear; having girls serve is not the big issue as to why boys don’t consider priesthood. Trying to say that the reduction in the number of men going to seminary is due to girls serving is another prime example of post hoc, ergo propter hoc.

 

[NeedsMercy]

There are more issues I could list, but the point should be clear; having girls serve is not the big issue as to why boys don’t consider priesthood. Trying to say that the reduction in the number of men going to seminary is due to girls serving is another prime example of post hoc, ergo propter hoc.

Agreed.

 

[brian_custer]

wow not trying to be “that new poster” but 14 pages about altar girls?

sheesh louise