S.F. Catholic Church priest bans girls as altar servers

[maryjk]

Utter nonsense. The Spirit moves with or without your permission.

Then it shouldn’t matter if girls serve or not.

If the Spirit is going to move those boys to become priests with or without their permission.

As an aside:

I don’t have a dog in this fight. I don’t have girls. And my son didn’t care if girls served with him or not. He is beyond serving age now.

The priest can choose whatever he wants; makes no never mind to me.

 

[otjm]

And thankfully you are not in charge of a parish or Church discipline, and the Church has spoken clearly and decisively: There is a solid link between boys serving and vocations, and the esteemed practice of boys serving is to be retained.

Rome may say any number of things; the statistics speak fro themselves.

Here’s some more information: when girls serve, boys are pushed out. They allow girls to take up the slack, or they view the ministry as effeminatized and refuse to do a girly thing like that. It’s a fact that when my parish went back to boys-only, the number of boys increased and exceeded the number of boys + girls.

that is not information; it is conjecture. Show me the statistics of boys and girls starting at whatever given age altar servers start at, and the statistics over the next number of years that any of them are serving, and that will be information. Other than that, it is apocrypha.

So even if there is no link at all between serving and vocations, prohibiting girls has a positive effect on the number of boys serving, and for me, that is a good thing.

I never said it had no influence. Literally what I said was “can serving have an impact? Absolutely.” It is hard to carry on any sort of intelligent conversation when the other party changes statements.

More men need to get involved in their parish. Many start as altar boys. If an altar boy does not grow up to be a priest then perhaps he will grow up to be a Knight of Columbus, or an Opus Dei member, or a strong husband. Perhaps he will be the next Matthew Kelly or Jeff Cavins. It’s clear that boys should not be denied opportunities to serve, especially to serve at the altar.

According to the posters in this thread, boys are not being denied anything; allegedly they are refusing to serve. That is a different statement. And I say allegedly; perhaps in your parish they are actually being told they cannot serve (which would be denying them the right), or that some of them (I seriously doubt all of them, or even many of them) are refusing to serve because there might be a girl server.

You are welcome to challenge my suppositions - that, for example, in the age group where servers start serving, there are an average of 7 boys who start serving; I started low so as to not blow it out of proportion. Factually, when there are over 17,000 parishes in 1965 and 994 men ordained, that works out to about 1 man for every 18 parishes being ordained in 1965. And that was in the heydays of boy altar servers before girls were introduced. Those are facts, and Rome can make all sorts of commentary; but factually, extremely few altar servers became priests when it was strictly altar boys; which would not indicate that serving had no impact; but that the impact is not anywhere near as great as one would presume from either Rome’s commentary, or posters opinions.

To which would need to be added all the rest of the facts surrounding the men when they were boys, not only as they started serving, but also as they continued to grow to the age where they first entered seminary.

And until there are actual statistics on how many boys start serving, when they drop out, and why, it is simply one more urban legend which gets passed around as gospel truth because someone you like said so.

And while we are doing research instead of repeating urban legends, we need to ask the priests who have been ordained since the time that there was an impact; that is, we need to ask those ordained if they served with girls; quit because of it, ignored it, and how it impacted their vocation if at all.

 

[KSU]

Then it shouldn’t matter if girls serve or not.

If the Spirit is going to move those boys to become priests with or without their permission…

You missed the point. Here, in part, is her post:

“Then imagine the mom [whose daughter isn’t allowed to serve at alter and] who [therefor] advises her son to stay away from the priesthood because it does not pay well, will prohibit him from starting a family and will require him to work wherever the order or diocese sends him. Regardless of the boy’s inclination toward the priesthood, regardless of his altar service experience, if you can’t sell the priesthood to his parents, it’s doubtful you’ll get the kid.”

To which I emphatically disagreed, viz.: “The Spirit moves with or without your permission.” In other words, the Spirit doesn’t need permission to move a boy (whose alter service already inclined the boy to be a priest) to ordination whether his mom, who is miffed at the Church, likes it or not.

 

[NeedsMercy]

-“Ummm, perhaps you haven’t noticed, but all priests, and all those in the Church in any position of power—temporal or spiritual—are male. I know, sometimes it’s hard to spot, so don’t feel bad if you didn’t catch it…” which is your response to “I can’t see that women are shut out of positions in the Church. In my diocese, women do a lot of work…such as: conduct RCIA classes, choir directors, teach in the school, parish coordinators, among other things. Exactly what are they shut out of, other than serving at the altar when the priest doesn’t allow it?”

-“I never said that. In fact, I never spoke about the women you mentioned at all” which is your response to my comment- “So these women have no power within the Church?” with the women in the question being those mentioned in the above. Apparently you seem to have forgotten that you did speak about those women.

-"Let’s see, just off the top of my head: the power to celebrate Mass, perform the sacraments, have a say in the interpretation of doctrine, pick Popes… " which is your response to the question- “How do you define “position of power,” exactly?”

Yeah, pretty clear I’m not putting words into your mouth about you holding that clergy are the ones in power in the Church and that women don’t have any.

Well you can understand how I could come to the conclusion that you think women don’t have any power in the Church and that the only ones with power are the clergy given that you’ve claimed as much in your comments I quoted above. zMaybe you were too busy name calling a Cardinal (Do I need to cite where you called Cardinal Burke a nut and claim he has psychological issues or do you remember writing that?) because you don’t like his views to remember what you’ve actually wrote in the rest of this thread.

As I said, your conclusion is incorrect, since it is based on your homemade, faulty assumptions.

 

[johnnyc176]

That’s a shame. Getting girls more involved in the church and the mass has been a great motivator for the girls in my parish to keep going to mass after confirmation.

I would think receiving the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord and Savior would be a great motivator to attend Mass. Of course also the fact that our Lord commands it.

 

[Brendan]

. Serving can also be an awesome conduit into the sisterhood. Sisterhood is all about service…

The service of women religious generally falls into tfour general charisms

1. Contemplative
2. Teaching
3. Mendicant-care for the poor
4. Care for the Sick

Unlike the relationship between service at the altar and the priesthood, service at the altar does not correspond to any of the charisms particular to women religious

If your concern is developing a ‘stake’ in the Church and developing vocations among girls, the activities should correspond to the general charisms

For Contempative religious, encourage Eucharistic Adoration
For Teaching, invite girls to help teach Religious Ed
For Care for the Poor, plan regular visits to soup kitchens and warming centers
For care for the Sick, plan visits to hospital and nursing homes to visit

In each case, the girls become just as much involved in the Church and as ‘stakeholders’, but they do so in a way that, unlike altar service, corresponds to the roles they would undertake as adult religious

 

[oldcatholicguy]

As I said, your conclusion is incorrect, since it is based on your homemade, faulty assumptions.

-First, please don’t send me any more PMs telling me that I need to conduct my supposed personal attacks on you through PMs like the other poster you claim in your PM is doing.
-Second, a personal attack isn’t someone using your own words and claims to prove that you think women have no power within the Church. That would be disproving your claim by using what you have said. A personal attack would be claiming someone has psychological issues with women and calling them a “nut” because you don’t agree with them.
-Third, my conclusion that you think women don’t have any power in the Church would only be incorrect or based on my “homemade, faulty assumptions” if you didn’t say- “Ummm, perhaps you haven’t noticed, but all priests, and all those in the Church in any position of power—temporal or spiritual—are male.” since that statement very clearly claims that women (who can’t be termed as priests or male) don’t hold any position of power in the Church. You did say that right? Or is there another poster on this thread with your same username, join date, location, number of posts, and avatar?

 

[SWolf]

-First, please don’t send me any more PMs telling me that I need to conduct my supposed personal attacks on you through PMs like the other poster you claim in your PM is doing.
-Second, a personal attack isn’t someone using your own words and claims to prove that you think women have no power within the Church. That would be disproving your claim by using what you have said. A personal attack would be claiming someone has psychological issues with women and calling them a “nut” because you don’t agree with them.
-Third, my conclusion that you think women don’t have any power in the Church would only be incorrect or based on my “homemade, faulty assumptions” if you didn’t say- “Ummm, perhaps you haven’t noticed, but all priests, and all those in the Church in any position of power—temporal or spiritual—are male.” since that statement very clearly claims that women (who can’t be termed as priests or male) don’t hold any position of power in the Church. You did say that right? Or is there another poster on this thread with your same username, join date, location, number of posts, and avatar?

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Buttered or plain?

 

[SWolf]

Buttered or plain?

Just salted for now. I’m saving the caramel corn for later. Don’t worry, I’ll share.

 

[ProVobis]

FWIW, here is what Cardinal Arinze says on the subject.

youtube.com/watch?v=KWByiwHE4MY

 

[KSU]

FWIW, here is what Cardinal Arinze says on the subject.

youtube.com/watch?v=KWByiwHE4MY

It won’t be long before Africa starts sending missionaries to us.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

It won’t be long before Africa starts sending missionaries to us.

Well if the Cardinal is an example of who they would send I can’t see how anyone would claim that it would be a bad thing. I’ve watched the video a couple of times now and really can’t find anything that I disagree with in terms of his claims or his argument as to why we need to focus on getting boys to be altar servers.

 

[otjm]

Just salted for now. I’m saving the caramel corn for later. Don’t worry, I’ll share.

At the price of caramel corn I saw recently while visiting a Cabela’s, that would be very generous!

 

[otjm]

FWIW, here is what Cardinal Arinze says on the subject.

youtube.com/watch?v=KWByiwHE4MY

I have long thought the world of the Cardinal.

I would also lay dollars to donuts that the great majority of priests also attended one or more Catholic schools in their years of being students.

and I am sure he is right, that if he were elected Pope, he would change some things; and so far, he has not been elected. But he does have a good sense of humor, and always has had.

 

[Prodigal_40s]

Well done Father Joseph and supported by your Bishop Salvatore Cordileone. The reason we don’t have priests is down to this contravention to the practice of young men serving on the altar of our Lord Jesus Christ. I sent my best wishes to him and welcome other faithful priests to do the same. Delighted with our Holy Father clarifying his position on a number of issues too.

Looking forward to the faithful standing together as one Holy Catholic and Apostolic church

 

[Prodigal_40s]

It won’t be long before Africa starts sending missionaries to us.

I hope so

 

[otjm]

“In August 2010 some fifty thousand altar servers descended upon Rome for the International Pilgrimage of Altar Servers with Pope Benedict XVI. It was the tenth such gathering of “ministrants” who serve the Novus Ordo Missae, and it marked the first time that altar girls outnumbered altar boys at the event… For nearly twenty years — since the promulgation of Acta Apostolicae Sedis, a Vatican interpretation of canon 230.2 of the 1983 Code of Canon Law — girls have poured into church sanctuaries like a wall of water rushing downstream from a broken dam. Just as quickly, boys have moved out of the way…“Of course, it’s not fair to lay blame for the priest shortage on the alb-covered shoulders of altar girls, who, by and large, do an excellent job serving…So, then, why should there be any issue with altar girls?.. [Because] Traditionally, priests have come from the ranks of the altar-server corps, and the introduction of female servers would soon discourage and drive away boys called to the priesthood.
newoxfordreview.org/article.jsp?did=1111-skuba

otjm, your opinion as to whether female alter servers, or the homosexual travesty in our seminaries which screened out straight men, or Richard McBrien et al., or family life, was the major cause of the loss of vocations is interesting. But it’s no more valid than my opinion–which, I’d wager, is also the Vatican’s: a combination of the first two causes. I believe that it was the first two because the drop in vocations mirrored the drop in masculinity.

So, statistics are now opinions. Okey dokey.

I know of one seminary which had, for a period of time, the nickname the “purple palace”. I would hesitate to go from one seminary to all, or most, or even many, without something more that someone else’s broad paintbrush based on one.

Was there screening? The evidence seems to certainly indicate there was. Has the problem been resolved? It certainly appears to have been ameliorated; and it certainly would bear watching.

In trial work, facts count, and opinions tend to dissolve under effective cross examination. I have no problem dealing with facts; but urban mythology is just that - mythology.

And as to McBrien, I never said he did not err; but neither his works nor those of Edward Schillebeeckx were condemned; Hans Kung had his right to teach as a Catholic Theologian pulled. Schillebeeckx and Kung had far, far wider reach within the Church than McBrien did, as well as any number of other theologians.

 

[otjm]

I hope so

That has been going on for decades, and likely will continue.

 

[ProVobis]

I know of one seminary which had, for a period of time, the nickname the “purple palace”. I would hesitate to go from one seminary to all, or most, or even many, without something more that someone else’s broad paintbrush based on one.

I have a lady friend who happened to have received her masters in theology from a seminary with the nickname the “pink palace.” Females even teach there, I understand.

Or maybe it’s the same seminary you’re talking about. ??