S.F. Catholic Church priest bans girls as altar servers

[ProVobis]

But neither Rome nor anyone else has shown that altar girls are causing a drop in vocations, and that is the presumption that underlies a good deal of this thread.

Vocations altogether or the priesthood? Which is it? In your short essays trying to disprove theories, you seem to use the two (vocations, priesthood) interchangeably. That’s clouding the issue as I see it. Is that deliberate?

As I’ve said, even before Vatican II, in their private chapels nuns said the servers’ responses and rang the bells. For all intents and purposes, they served the Mass. So if you’re using the argument that altar serving brings in more women to the convent, one can easily claim that’s really a chicken or egg argument IMO.

 

[Brendan]

In any case, almost every time the USCCB does anything, they defer to the bishops. In this case, the bishop agreed with the priest. Interestingly enough, he did not follow the USCCB *suggestion *that a uniform policy be set throughout the diocese, as is his right. After all, the SF bishop is responsible for such decisions.

As the Vatican has stated that a priest cannot be compelled to allow altar girls, a fully uniform policy could never really be achieved.

Even within a parish, an associate pastor could choose to use only boys or men in altar service, even if the pastor allows it.

So even if the Bishop DID follow the USCCB “suggestion”, such a policy it would, of necessity, have to allow for a priest to use only altar boys if the priest so chose.

Once again from Notitiea Prot. N.2451/00/L

In accord with the above cited instructions of the Holy See such an authorization may not, in any way, exclude men or, in particular, boys from service at the altar, nor require that priests of the diocese would make use of female altar servers,

Any other policy would be a rejection of a valid directive from the Vatican.

A Bishop may certainly do what the Church allows for in his diocese, be he cannot do what the Church specifically prohibits him from doing.

 

[pnewton]

the church of “nice”.

Use of this term explains volumes. One does not have to be nice. All I ask as a faithful Catholic is that I not be falsely accused of dissent for following the teaching of the Catholic Church. To appeal to the instruction of Jesus, who said the second greatest commandment is that we love our brother as ourselves, do you, or anyone here, want to be accuse of dissent? Wouldn’t that strike you pretty deep if you were? For me, it is worse than being cussed out because I value my orthodoxy. Charity is when we treat others as we would be treated. If we do not want to be falsely accused, then we should be slow and deliberate about making such accusations and do so only when we are a addressing a clear contradiction to dogma.

 

[MaryT777]

I’ve been following this thread with a lot of interest although I’ve yet to speak on its issue until now. I’m really in favor of an all male altar server situation. It just makes logical sense to me. For a boy serving at the altar it is a “taste” of what may be if he became a priest, to put things in their most simplified terms. Like a child learning of the flavor of an unknown food, they cannot tell as well if they’d like it or not until that taste. So what would a girl in that scenario get a “taste” of? Since ordination is only for men, that “taste” of a vocation is nowhere near the experience it would be for a boy or the right fit for a girl.

I understand and agree that there are other factors which add to the likelihood of vocations for the priesthood or for religious life, but I think that we should not rob one of the time-honored factors to a call to the priesthood from boys who have a hard enough time with all the societal and secular opposition to a priestly vocation. We need our priests!

I live in the SouthEast and am a convert to Catholicism and one of our main issues is overworked Priests in our area. We have a amall parish and one Priest assisted by a Deacon for our church. They are true God-fearing and Magisterium following men and I love them both dearly and am truly grateful to both of them for their help in my entry into the Church, and because of this I have great concern for how overworked they both are. I have actually seen our Pastor become dizzy and have to lay down in a pew during an after-Mass rosary due to how hard he worked and fasting. His health is not the best to begin with and he’s in his sixties and many of us in the congregation worry about so much being on his shoulders. If there was just one other Priest assigned part time to our Parish it would be so much help, but there just are not enough Priests to justify that.

Finally, we do have altar girls sometimes, but usually (sometimes it can be months between times I see an altar girl serving) it’s boys and I can see the difference in how they are affected by their service. Some of the boys just seem to “glow” while they serve while the girls are nowhere near as into it although they do their actions with due reverance. Nothing against the girls who serve this way btw, nothing at all. I just do not see them getting the same grace and incentives from serving as boys do.

God Bless,
Julia

I read through your post and wondered if seeing a priest lay down in a pew in and of itself may make some young man think twice about the priesthood. Perhaps they think if I become a priest I will be overworked to the point of exhaustion.

Mary.

 

[Tigg]

I’ve been following this thread with a lot of interest although I’ve yet to speak on its issue until now. I’m really in favor of an all male altar server situation. It just makes logical sense to me. For a boy serving at the altar it is a “taste” of what may be if he became a priest, to put things in their most simplified terms. Like a child learning of the flavor of an unknown food, they cannot tell as well if they’d like it or not until that taste. So what would a girl in that scenario get a “taste” of? Since ordination is only for men, that “taste” of a vocation is nowhere near the experience it would be for a boy or the right fit for a girl.

I think back to my primary school years and teachers and am amazed how easily their names and faces still come to mind. Kids at this stage are quite easily impressed and influenced. They are like little sponges which soak up different influences that will later carve out their character. Positive and negative experiences both are well-remembered during this time. And I simply do not believe that God does not speak to them while serving, even at this age with a subtle and holy movement, laying His foundation within their small male hearts for a later calling . So I agree with you that it is not the right fit for a girl and it is only our PC society that demands “rights” where none legitimately exist.

I understand and agree that there are other factors which add to the likelihood of vocations for the priesthood or for religious life, but I think that we should not rob one of the time-honored factors to a call to the priesthood from boys who have a hard enough time with all the societal and secular opposition to a priestly vocation. We need our priests!

Very well stated.

 

[FaustinaJulia]

I read through your post and wondered if seeing a priest lay down in a pew in and of itself may make some young man think twice about the priesthood. Perhaps they think if I become a priest I will be overworked to the point of exhaustion.

Mary.

All the more reason to reconsider anything which may take away from any factor that would help lead to priestly vocations.

 

[Prodigal_40s]

Use of this term explains volumes. ** One does not have to be nice.** All I ask as a faithful Catholic is that I not be falsely accused of dissent for following the teaching of the Catholic Church. To appeal to the instruction of Jesus, who said the second greatest commandment is that we love our brother as ourselves, do you, or anyone here, want to be accuse of dissent? Wouldn’t that strike you pretty deep if you were? For me, it is worse than being cussed out because I value my orthodoxy. **Charity is when we treat others as we would be treated. ** If we do not want to be falsely accused, then we should be slow and deliberate about making such accusations and do so only when we are a addressing a clear contradiction to dogma.

Oh I guessed that and the church of nice is a contradiction because what happens is if a faithful Catholic calls out a point of canon law or indeed points out the immovable Universal truth, they’re hounded and then jeered at on mainstream media, generally with the c0fn being the instigators.

There are another 9 commandments and a plethora of scripture which calls us to call out lies and falsehoods too. That would include dissent from Church teaching and therefore it’s not relevant to me.

I agree about charity but we’re called to defend the faith. The principle of having Altar Girls…often at the expense of Altar boys is something that we should not encourage so I and a number of other posters on this thread defended that.

Your post about Cardinal Burke wasn’t very charitable on this subject mocking the “dresses” of the altar servers. I wonder if you can recall that example of “charity”?

 

[pnewton]

I’ve been following this thread with a lot of interest although I’ve yet to speak on its issue until now. I’m really in favor of an all male altar server situation. It just makes logical sense to me. For a boy serving at the altar it is a “taste” of what may be if he became a priest, to put things in their most simplified terms. Like a child learning of the flavor of an unknown food, they cannot tell as well if they’d like it or not until that taste. So what would a girl in that scenario get a “taste” of? Since ordination is only for men, that “taste” of a vocation is nowhere near the experience it would be for a boy or the right fit for a girl.

I totally agree with all you of this, including the last part. I think it a good argument for revitalizing the role and especially the training of altar servers. I do not think the presence of girls takes away from this though, any more than the presence of boys who do not consider the priesthood, or young men who have already chose a different vocation, distracts from what the other receive. I say this only from my limited experience. I recognize my limitations, and that of all humanity, is exactly why such a decision is left to the local bishop.

 

[pnewton]

Oh I guessed that and the church of nice is a contradiction because what happens is if a faithful Catholic calls out a point of canon law or indeed points out the immovable Universal truth, they’re hounded and then jeered at on mainstream media, generally with the c0fn being the instigators.

There are another 9 commandments and a plethora of scripture which calls us to call out lies and falsehoods too. That would include dissent from Church teaching and therefore it’s not relevant to me.

Your post about Cardinal Burke wasn’t very charitable on this subject mocking the “dresses” of the altar servers. I wonder if you can recall that example of “charity”?

Cardinal Burke did not accuse anyone of dissent, for this did he? If this was a matter of faith, I would be in totally agreement with all you say. I asked earlier for the doctrine from which I dissented. Of course there is no such thing, and that’s the point.

I respect the defense of a discipline you see as critical. All I ask is for the same respect. As I have said, I agree that the role of altar boy is an important tradition and has been an important factor in vocations. I simply do not see it as a zero sum choice.

 

[Prodigal_40s]

Cardinal Burke did not accuse anyone of dissent, for this did he? If this was a matter of faith, I would be in totally agreement with all you say. I asked earlier for the doctrine from which I dissented. Of course there is no such thing, and that’s the point.

I respect the defense of a discipline you see as critical. **All I ask is for the same respect. ** As I have said, I agree that the role of altar boy is an important tradition and has been an important factor in vocations. I simply do not see it as a zero sum choice.

Would that include posts that somebody wrote about “Altar boys in dresses”? By the way if you want to raise this as an issue with the mods, it was you who posted it.

That last point is an interesting one. 230.2 PERMITS altar girls but if you’ve followed this thread you’d understand why me and a number of women posters desire altar boys.

Do you think there is a crisis in the church? I think your answer could be an interesting one…

 

[NeedsMercy]

 

[kozlosap]

I have nine daughters and one son. We rejected the idea of altar service for our girls because it began in this country as disobedience and an abuse which thumbed the noses of the U.S. bishops at the Holy Father. This, along with a plethora of other abuses and sillyness going on in the U.S. Church, was the final straw. We did not want to contribute to the confusion. Girls and women do not need to be on the altar (nor in the military)

WOW is the only word I can muster up that would be appropriate in a public. To have such little regard for over half of the population is mind-blowing. Were your nine daughters allowed to be follow their hearts and dreams if that dream required education beyond a sixth grade level? During mass were the ten women sitting in the back of the church while you and your one saving priceless prince right up front?

Your post has to be one of the saddest that I’ve ever read here on CAL. I would love to hear what Papa Francis has to say about your personal beliefs that are in direct opposition to the Church’s teachings. My hope is that you are part of the SSPX and not the True Church.

 

[KSU]

WOW is the only word I can muster up that would be appropriate in a public. To have such little regard for over half of the population is mind-blowing. Were your nine daughters allowed to be follow their hearts and dreams if that dream required education beyond a sixth grade level? During mass were the ten women sitting in the back of the church while you and your one saving priceless prince right up front?

Your post has to be one of the saddest that I’ve ever read here on CAL. I would love to hear what Papa Francis has to say about your personal beliefs that are in direct opposition to the Church’s teachings. My hope is that you are part of the SSPX and not the True Church.

That is disgusting and has no place on this Forum. You need to apologize to hosemonkey…

 

[JimG]

While this article titled “How to Kill Vocations in Your Diocese” does not deal specifically with the issue of altar servers, one of the things that he does mention in his list of ways to kill vocations is: “Use as many altar girls as possible. Discourage the boys from joining.”

 

[pnewton]

Would that include posts that somebody wrote about “Altar boys in dresses”? By the way if you want to raise this as an issue with the mods, it was you who posted it.

That last point is an interesting one. 230.2 PERMITS altar girls but if you’ve followed this thread you’d understand why me and a number of women posters desire altar boys.

Do you think there is a crisis in the church? I think your answer could be an interesting one…

There is always some crisis in the Church, but I know that is not what you mean. On balance, though, I think the Church had a far greater crisis in 50’s and 60’s dealing with the secularism and the sexual revolution, then again fifteen years ago dealing with the sexual abuse scandal. Then again, these two pale in comparison to Arianism, the East-West schism and the Protestant Reformation.

 

[pnewton]

Your post has to be one of the saddest that I’ve ever read here on CAL. I would love to hear what Papa Francis has to say about your personal beliefs that are in direct opposition to the Church’s teachings. My hope is that you are part of the SSPX and not the True Church.

Can we please dispense with the accusations of not following the Church’s teachings already? Who serves the altar is only a discipline, not a teaching, and even beyond that, the current discipline relies only on the authority and prudence. We cannot be
wrong" on this. We can be ignorant and deny the historicity and importance of boys serving as a path to vocations. We can be wrong and deny women the same dignity as men, but no one is doing that. Maybe this thread will have to be moderated, but if we could at least drop the bludgeon that some one is opposing Church teaching, heterodox or dissenting, then there would be no need for moderation. If we cannot refrain out of charity, then at least do so because it simply is not true.

Yes, I caught that part about the military, but I figured there was enough people here who served as to make that response unnecessary.

 

[KSU]

While this article titled “How to Kill Vocations in Your Diocese” does not deal specifically with the issue of altar servers, one of the things that he does mention in his list of ways to kill vocations is: “Use as many altar girls as possible. Discourage the boys from joining.”

 

[kozlosap]

That is disgusting and has no place on this Forum.

I apologise for upsetting you. What is disgusting is the lack of respect for women shown by stating that women have no right to be in the sanctuary or in the military. The saving grace is that 99.999% of men and women do not hold those beliefs to be valid unless they are living in Saudi Arabia. Education is the tool needed to move those stuck in 1650 into the real world where all people are encouraged to worship together and to follow their dreams. Unfortunately, those in the most need of a higher education are those who are scared to death of education as a whole because it debunks some of their most cherished bigotry.

 

[Prodigal_40s]

There is always some crisis in the Church, but I know that is not what you mean. On balance, though, I think the Church had a far greater crisis in 50’s and 60’s dealing with the secularism and the sexual revolution, then again fifteen years ago dealing with the sexual abuse scandal. Then again, these two pale in comparison to Arianism, the East-West schism and the Protestant Reformation.

Ok. So you’re saying that there isn’t a crisis in the Church that warrants immediate attention such as encouraging altar boys to ensure that we have more priests?

 

[pnewton]

h “Use as many altar girls as possible. Discourage the boys from joining.”

I could not find in the article where these two were shown to be related. Again, it makes this assumption that more girls equates to fewer boys.