S.F. Catholic Church priest bans girls as altar servers

[MaryT777]

Anyone know the reasoning behind allowing girl servers? I’ve heard that because there weren’t enough boys, they needed help from girls. I’ve also heard that it happened during the feminist movement, when there was a push to have girls perform traditionally male tasks.

In our old Parish there were not enough boys to serve so girls were permitted to serve.
After that there was an uproar in the parish and all of a sudden boys wanted to serve and serve with all boys. It was simply a political issue at the end of the day.

Mary.

 

[Blessedwithfive]

Very sad to hear the exclusion of girls. So many men seem threatened by girls…I just don’t understand.

 

[casslean]

Here’s one that will help. The USCCB with Georgetown University did a study of Men who were ordained to the Priesthood last year. One of the major findings was that 80% of those ordained were altar servers.

For every girl altar server is one less boy and as seen one less potential Priest.

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/vocations/ordination-class/upload/Class-of-2014-report-FINAL-2.pdf

This is a false correlation in trying to prove the hypothetical “myth” that serving is a gateway to the priesthood.

80% of ordained priests were altar servers; this shows that those called to the priesthood were more likely to be called to serve even when they were young. If you want to show that altar serving is a gateway to the priesthood, tell me what proportion of male altar servers became priests both before and after this rule was implemented. Unless the number is significantly lower after girls were allowed to serve, it isn’t demonstrative of the point they’ve been trying to prove.

We also always need to be conscious of the fact that even children raised in the Church leave the Church. Having come into this faith as an adult, I frequently get approached by parents who want me to talk to their older teenagers and twenty-something children about why I chose the church, because they’ve chosen to abandon it - both boys AND girls. Those girls are the ones who will have the families that will form the next generation of Catholics, if we can convince them that they are valued and treasured and have a place in the church. If we are telling young girls, even as children, their value is diminished because they can’t become priests, what message does that send?

 

[kyria]

This is a false correlation in trying to prove the hypothetical “myth” that serving is a gateway to the priesthood.

80% of ordained priests were altar servers; this shows that those called to the priesthood were more likely to be called to serve even when they were young. If you want to show that altar serving is a gateway to the priesthood, tell me what proportion of male altar servers became priests both before and after this rule was implemented. Unless the number is significantly lower after girls were allowed to serve, it isn’t demonstrative of the point they’ve been trying to prove.

We also always need to be conscious of the fact that even children raised in the Church leave the Church. Having come into this faith as an adult, I frequently get approached by parents who want me to talk to their older teenagers and twenty-something children about why I chose the church, because they’ve chosen to abandon it - both boys AND girls. Those girls are the ones who will have the families that will form the next generation of Catholics, if we can convince them that they are valued and treasured and have a place in the church. If we are telling young girls, even as children, their value is diminished because they can’t become priests, what message does that send?

 

[ARSpade]

. Those girls are the ones who will have the families that will form the next generation of Catholics,

Actually, studies have indicated that the father’s religious attendance and faith has a larger impact on if the couple’s kids stay in whatever that faith is.

onepeterfive.com/should-girls-serve-at-the-altar-a-former-altar-girl-weighs-in/

A lady’s view on the subject.

 

[ProVobis]

Actually, studies have indicated that the father’s religious attendance and faith has a larger impact on if the couple’s kids stay in whatever that faith is.

onepeterfive.com/should-girls-serve-at-the-altar-a-former-altar-girl-weighs-in/

A lady’s view on the subject.

Indeed. And overwhelmingly so. That’s why women outnumbering men in church is not something to feel good about.

 

[Blessedwithfive]

This is a false correlation in trying to prove the hypothetical “myth” that serving is a gateway to the priesthood.

80% of ordained priests were altar servers; this shows that those called to the priesthood were more likely to be called to serve even when they were young. If you want to show that altar serving is a gateway to the priesthood, tell me what proportion of male altar servers became priests both before and after this rule was implemented. Unless the number is significantly lower after girls were allowed to serve, it isn’t demonstrative of the point they’ve been trying to prove.

We also always need to be conscious of the fact that even children raised in the Church leave the Church. Having come into this faith as an adult, I frequently get approached by parents who want me to talk to their older teenagers and twenty-something children about why I chose the church, because they’ve chosen to abandon it - both boys AND girls. Those girls are the ones who will have the families that will form the next generation of Catholics, if we can convince them that they are valued and treasured and have a place in the church. If we are telling young girls, even as children, their value is diminished because they can’t become priests, what message does that send?

Yes, Yes. I agree!

 

[casslean]

Indeed. And overwhelmingly so. That’s why women outnumbering men in church is not something to feel good about.

That doesn’t mean the answer is to start excluding women or girls from roles without any sound theological reason for doing so.

I can defend the Church’s position on not having women in the priesthood. I am happy to do so. There is a strong, theological basis for that defense. But what is my defense when people tell me the Catholic Church devalues women, and shows me articles like this as proof? I don’t have one. I can’t refute their argument that such acts show that my value to this Church is based on whether or not I can become a priest, and since I can’t, my value is limited.

And so when my friends, professional women who are raising young daughters, tell me that they don’t want to be part of a church that cannot give them a good reason for excluding their daughters, I have to sympathize.

Fathers may be important for determining if children stay in the faith, but I would lay odds that in those families, it’s the mothers who provide the initial grounding. If there’s no foundation, there’s nothing to build on. If you make women feel excluded and unwelcome, if you make them feel like they have to stay in their corner, they will go somewhere they do feel welcome.

 

[cycleman]

If we are telling young girls, even as children, their value is diminished because they can’t become priests, what message does that send?

Last Sunday, I attended a United Church service led by a women minister. In her sermon, she described a moment with her young (pre-school) daughter and gift giving/ gift receiving and love. It immediately struck me that such a perspective would never come from a Catholic altar as there will never be priests that have the experience of being any of 1) female, 2) married, or 3) a parent.

 

[ARSpade]

That doesn’t mean the answer is to start excluding women or girls from roles without any sound theological reason for doing so.

I can defend the Church’s position on not having women in the priesthood. I am happy to do so. There is a strong, theological basis for that defense. But what is my defense when people tell me the Catholic Church devalues women, and shows me articles like this as proof? I don’t have one. I can’t refute their argument that such acts show that my value to this Church is based on whether or not I can become a priest, and since I can’t, my value is limited.

And so when my friends, professional women who are raising young daughters, tell me that they don’t want to be part of a church that cannot give them a good reason for excluding their daughters, I have to sympathize.

Fathers may be important for determining if children stay in the faith, but I would lay odds that in those families, it’s the mothers who provide the initial grounding. If there’s no foundation, there’s nothing to build on. If you make women feel excluded and unwelcome, if you make them feel like they have to stay in their corner, they will go somewhere they do feel welcome.

Why is the altar the be all end all of all involvement with the Church?

There’s a list of female Saints that would and does fill a giant book who’ve all apparently wouldn’t say they were “excluded” from anything. There’s plenty of places to feel included and welcome in church for women. Heck, I’d say 90% of the staff, readers, extraordinary ministers, etc. at the church I go to are women. Are they “excluded”?

Also, is there a theological reason I can’t be a nun? Should I accuse the church of being anti-male for this outrage?

 

[ARSpade]

It immediately struck me that such a perspective would never come from a Catholic altar as there will never be priests that have the experience of being any of 1) female, 2) married, or 3) a parent.

Priest at my church two parish’s ago’s wife had passed away. Once his children were out of the house he joined up.

So I guess “never” was a pretty broad word.

ETA: Also, Father Longenecker exists and has a nice blog.

 

[Havard]

Last Sunday, I attended a United Church service led by a women minister. In her sermon, she described a moment with her young (pre-school) daughter and gift giving/ gift receiving and love. It immediately struck me that such a perspective would never come from a Catholic altar as there will never be priests that have the experience of being any of 1) female, 2) married, or 3) a parent.

Never?!? Re: 1), yes, but re: 2) and 3), there already are married priests in the Catholic Church, and there are even more who are parents.

 

[ProVobis]

Fathers may be important for determining if children stay in the faith, but I would lay odds that in those families, it’s the mothers who provide the initial grounding. If there’s no foundation, there’s nothing to build on. If you make women feel excluded and unwelcome, if you make them feel like they have to stay in their corner, they will go somewhere they do feel welcome.

I’m not sure I would agree with that. Being excluded does pose a challenge in many, but the funny thing is that you don’t see men being challenged to become nurses or airline attendants, for example. Once it’s seen as a woman profession, that’s it.

I think there is truth to the adage that men feel like men with other men but women feel more like women around men.

 

[casslean]

Why is the altar the be all end all of all involvement with the Church?

If it’s not the “be all end all” of all involvement with the church, then why should it be treated any differently than any other ministry?

Also, is there a theological reason I can’t be a nun? Should I accuse the church of being anti-male for this outrage?

There is a male equivalent to a nun, so I’m not sure what your point is here. No one is excluding men from religious communities; in this case, girls are being excluded from this ministry.

 

[casslean]

I’m not sure I would agree with that. Being excluded does pose a challenge in many, but the funny thing is that you don’t see men being challenged to become nurses or airline attendants, for example. Once it’s seen as a woman profession, that’s it.

I think there is truth to the adage that men feel like men with other men but women feel more like women around men.

I’m sorry but I cannot condone the Church perpetuating outdated and outmoded stereotypes. If this is true, we don’t need to exclude women or girls; we need to educate men and boys that no task is inferior or beneath them simply because women can do it as well.

 

[irishpatrick]

In a survey taken in 2014, there were 365 Ordinands to the Priesthood. Of those 365 men, 80% served as altar servers when they were younger!

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/vocations/ordination-class/upload/Class-of-2014-report-FINAL-2.pdf

 

[ARSpade]

I’m sorry but I cannot condone the Church perpetuating outdated and outmoded stereotypes. If this is true, we don’t need to exclude women or girls; we need to educate men and boys that no task is inferior or beneath them simply because women can do it as well.

Why do you hate men and seek to deny them male only spaces where they can feel comfortable and perform a ministry? I think you need to be a bit more sensative to the needs of others and stop seeing things from only the perspective of your own personal gender.

 

[casslean]

In a survey taken in 2014, there were 365 Ordinands to the Priesthood. Of those 365 men, 80% served as altar servers when they were younger!

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/vocations/ordination-class/upload/Class-of-2014-report-FINAL-2.pdf

And 97% had at least one sibling, so if we exclude singleton children from altar serving as well, we should get a HUGE influx of new candidates to the priesthood, because we know only 3% of candidates are singleton children.

Do you see the problem with applying the stats like this? The statistics were used to show that those who discern a vocation to the priesthood were those who were also more likely to be active in parish ministries; if you want to show that the presence of girls actually affects the number of boys who choose to discern for the priesthood, the statistics need to be much more nuanced.

 

[Corki]

sfgate.com/bayarea/article/S-F-Catholic-Church-priest-bans-girls-as-altar-6041400.php

I know you are stuck with the title of the news story, but he didn’t “ban” altar servers. Pastors have lots of options when it comes to Mass. One of those options is whether to have male only or a mixed male and female group serve at the altar. Using the term “ban” is just trying to stoke the fires of people who are always looking for a victim.

If a priest decides to distribute Communion under one species would we say he has “banned” the Precious Blood? No, this is a valid option at Mass.

If a priest decides to skip the shared sign of peace, would we say he has “banned” the practice of shaking hands? No, this is a valid option at Mass.

If a priest chooses more traditional hymns for Mass, would we say he has “banned” Hagen, Haas and Schute? No, this is a valid option at Mass.

No, this priest didn’t “ban” anything. He just made a choice from among the many options allowed to him BY THE CHURCH regarding altar servers. He also gets to decide how many servers he wants at each Mass, what they will wear, and whether one serves as thurifer, whether any of them carry candles in procession, the age range for altar servers and who is in charge of training them. Lots of options, lots of combinations of choices. But this one gets the press because it serves someone’s agenda.

 

[Corki]

Last Sunday, I attended a United Church service led by a women minister. In her sermon, she described a moment with her young (pre-school) daughter and gift giving/ gift receiving and love. It immediately struck me that such a perspective would never come from a Catholic altar as there will never be priests that have the experience of being any of 1) female, 2) married, or 3) a parent.

And why would anyone want the same perspective from an ordained Catholic priest as from a Protestant minister?