Sacraments necessary?

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If we have already had this conversation, and you have not directly answered, then why are you here? Agendas are prohibited and will get you hammered. Your time would be far better spent getting the bible alone/Protestant side together on doctrine. Catholics have no problem. You do.

If you want to learn about the Church as Christ founded it and as the Apostles handed it on to us, both oral and written, then stick around and learn - like the rest of us did. Conversely, if you are here to lecture, you will be sadly disappointed - and it is hoped that you will also learn that someone has taught you Christian error.

As well, I believe that you are forgetting something: The Christian or the seeker, to be properly trained, must first have received proper Christian training. Walking before running and hearing before reading. Read the Prologue to Luke. Luke taught Theophilus nothing from scripture. He wrote his Gospel only to affirm the oral teaching (tradition) which Theolphilus had already received.

It appears that Theophilus doubted. Scripture was used to counter doubters - those who will not believe until they see, or read. What did Jesus say about those who have not seen, but have believed? Same with looking for written proof.

Scripture tells us to:
  1. Test the spirits! 1 John 1:1-4
  2. That the ignorant and unstable twist the scriptures to their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:16
Neither you nor I are immune from these passages. BUT, the Holy Spirit leads the Church into all truth and can lead all humans, there is no guarantee that it is the Holy Spirit leading bible Christians, as they possess only 1/3 of what Christ left us.

What you allege agrees that Joesph Smtih (LDS) and Charles Taze Russell (BS/JW) were lead by the Holy Spirit.

Therefore, you must choose between the LDS and the JWs, must you not? How can you defeat that, since they used the exact same 66 book bible you do?

How?

After all, they were “lead by the spirit”

How does the bible Christian solve this unsolvable problem? By disagreeing? How’s that working out?
 
The ordinary means to achieve salvation is through the Church of Jesus Christ and her seven sacraments. However, as we cannot limit God, He may certainly have extraordinary means for those who cannot receive the sacraments. e.g. non-believers.
 
First answer: please read the book of Acts on how many times they broke bread, with not even a hint of a physical presence. The words, “Do this in remembrance” are key…

Second answer: consuming flesh or blood would not only violate their current law, it would contradict other scripture, as previously mentioned. And God’s Word does not contradict…

Third answer: Jesus’s disciples didn’t leave Him because of a misunderstanding… just one of several passages that explains that: John 2:24 But Jesus, on His part, was not entrusting Himself to them, for He knew all men’s hearts. The short answer: They were not there because they “wanted” to follow Jesus…

Good questions…
 
Excuse me, but where are you? In what forum? Under whose rules?

Our Lord is sacramentally present, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Holy Eucharist.

If you are going to doubt, Christian thought teaches that one should doubt the self first. That is humility and only the humble enter heaven.
 
That is a reasonable question. I’m here because of a command… you may be familiar, Matthew 28:19. Did you think Catholics were exempt…?

Just curious… in your mention of John 1:1-4, and we should “Test the spirits”… how’s that working for you with Purgatory, Indulgences, the Papacy, Infallibility, the Rosary, the Church superseding scripture for starters… and what references are you testing them with…??

In correction… LDS and JW’s do not use the same 66 books that Christians use… you may want to look into that… So, if you were incorrect about that… then…
 
Where is scripture does it say salvation is through Jesus Christ, plus the sacraments…???
 
It works perfectly!

What the problem is, is that you have been taught erroneous theology and assume that it is true and is a right interpretation of scripture. Your ideas go back at most, 500 years. And not to Israel, but to Germany! Where is that in scripture?

Catholic ideas go straight back to 33AD.

We will believe you if you can show where Christ taught that the 66 book Protestant bible was the supreme authority on earth for all time.
 
I think this is the Moral Theology forum… Who’s rules…???

As mentioned several times… a physical presence in the host contradicts scripture.

Jesus had referred to himself as Spiritual bread in John 6:35, 41, 48, 51, 67, and certainly not the last, as John says in John 6:63: "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life."
 
I doubt at this point I can say this slow enough…but you’ll learn it someday because logic, itself, dictates this truth. God’s word means nothing unless it’s properly interpreted and understood. And none of us as individuals are guaranteed the authority to interpret it accurately which is why so many have disagreed over its meaning, giving plausible enough interpretations often enough, over the centuries. God’s word is right, but yours is not. Unless YOU’RE understanding is infallible.

Here’s more logic. You have no more reason personally to trust the bible than you do to trust God’s Church which at least received and preached the gospel before the New Testament was written and whose members wrote it. Your trust in the bible as God’s word is purely subjective, regardless of how right it may happen to be. But to say that Scripture is right, and inspired by God, and authoritative, is one thing. To accurately interpret it is another thing altogether. So far you’ve made some fair guesses, some probably right, others wrong. Again, your SS cohorts won’t necessarily agree with you. Lutherans teach Baptismal regeneration, along with the ancient Churches, incidentally.

We love Jesus so we do as He commands (John 14:15). And He told us to Baptize-an act, itself, of faith in and love of Him-for the forgiveness of sins and to enter life.
 
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I can argue against intellect, but not against ego. I am not speaking of you but of 99.99% of other bible alones who know it all.

Now, read 1 Corinthians 11.

Please explain how a “participation” in the Body and Blood of Christ is nothing at all and Paul was irrational or deranged. Note please that participation is an entering into. If it was solely a spiritual participation, why was Paul such a poor teacher and writer that he could not get this across?

Please explain how Paul was completely wrong when he taught an examination of conscience before partaking of the Eucharist - that those who did not examine their consciences ate and drank damnation unto themselves.

Damnation for doing nothing against nothing?

Waiting to hear.
 
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Well, then you’re the right person to show me that what you think, align’s with God’s intentions… Let’s start with where the sacraments are require by God for salvation…

Regarding your request for scripture’s supreme authority. (and by the way, I never said I was Protestant… and that wasn’t your first mis-assumption… ).
  1. Jesus refers to scripture: Matthew 7:24-27 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock"
  2. Jesus again: John 5:39-40 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me , yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
  3. Peter weigh’s in: 2 Peter 1: 19-20 "We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."
  4. 2 Timothy 1:13-14 What you heard from me , “keep” as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus. Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you – guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us. Notice the word "KEEP"
  5. 2 Timothy 3:15-17 - and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
In short, all Canonical Scripture is God Breathed… Did you want a higher authority than that…???
 
Christianapologist said:
First answer: please read the book of Acts on how many times they broke bread, with not even a hint of a physical presence. The words, “Do this in remembrance” are key…

Second answer: consuming flesh or blood would not only violate their current law, it would contradict other scripture, as previously mentioned. And God’s Word does not contradict…

Third answer: Jesus’s disciples didn’t leave Him because of a misunderstanding… just one of several passages that explains that: John 2:24 But Jesus, on His part, was not entrusting Himself to them, for He knew all men’s hearts. The short answer: They were not there because they “wanted” to follow Jesus…

Good questions…
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Good questions, but you cannot provide thought-through answers?

My first question to you was, where is it taught prior to the protestant revolt that the Real Presence is false? I didn’t ask you, “What does Acts say about the breaking of the bread?”. Please answer the questions I asked, not the ones that I didn’t.

Second: It’s my point that consuming blood violated the Mosaic law. Christ declaring all foods clean also did the same. If you reject the Eucharist for this reason, you must also reject Christ’s revelation concerning what foods we may eat (and this will lead you to rejecting Christ- not recommended).

So again, please show us where your teachings existed in the ancient Church. If you can’t do that, at least admit that you believe the first Christians were deceived (because this follows from your rejection of what they believed).
 
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Regarding your thought: “Your trust in the bible as God’s word is purely subjective”
Two thoughts:
  1. Would that also apply to you…?
  2. And if I type God’s Word directly into this forum, is that subjective…? Such as Roman’s 10:9-10, and then ask how Catholic’s reconcile that sacraments are needed for salvation… The passage is Objective, and my question is based on an Objective passage… what in their is subjective…?
 
I’d rather not bring your ego into this…

What passage in 1 Cor 11 are you referring to…?
 
Actually, Starting in Genesis… The Trinity:
In Genesis 1:1, the plural noun “Elohim”is joined with the singular verb “created”: “In the beginning, [Elohim] created the heavens and the earth.” The pattern is repeated in [Genesis 1:27]: “So [Elohim] created man in his own image, in the image of [Elohim] he created him; male and female he created them.” The plural noun was the Trinity. Then in Matthew 3:16; Matthew 12:28; Matthew 28:19; Luke 3:22; John 14:26; John 15:26; Acts 1:4 and so many more…

So, where in scripture does it describe that the sacraments are necessary for salvation…?
 
Christianapologist said:
Regarding your thought: “Your trust in the bible as God’s word is purely subjective”
Two thoughts:
  1. Would that also apply to you…?
    Yes
  2. And if I type God’s Word directly into this forum, is that subjective…? Such as Roman’s 10:9-10, and then ask how Catholic’s reconcile that sacraments are needed for salvation… The passage is Objective, and my question is based on an Objective passage… what in their is subjective…?
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There are many passages in Scripture-which must be read in light of the others -together with the light of God’s church if we’re to have any hope of fully understanding the faith. JWs present plenty of plausible arguments against the deity of Jesus based on Scripture verses. The concept of the Trinity doesn’t just jump out clearly and fully formed from the pages of the bible, which is why controversy arose early on. Also, I listed in a previous post verses that spoke of what we must do in order to gain eternal life, besides being baptized and alongside of the teaching in Rom 10.

BTW, Rom 10 isn’t some neat theological package that stands on its own. Dividing the books and letters into chapters and enumerating verses is a recent innovation. The letter to the Romans was a single letter, to be read as a whole. Again, with a different mix, from Rom only this time:

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12
 
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The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation. “Sacramental grace” is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. the Spirit heals and transforms those who receive him by conforming them to the Son of God. the fruit of the sacramental life is that the Spirit of adoption makes the faithful partakers in the divine nature by uniting them in a living union with the only Son, the Savior.
CCC 1129
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Yes, like I said, we need these poignant signs to conform us to the Son of God and unite us in a living union with Jesus. We cannot get it through our thick skulls except by “efficacious signs” that heal and transform us, teach and inspire us. It is the Word of God that gives sacraments their meaning, and enables us to hear God in our lives.

Those who do not believe may be able to be saved some other way. But for us who believe, our faith is made real in the sacraments. Without the sacraments, we might be born again but parentless. No Father to declare at baptism that we are his children, no mother be ause we would be estranged from the Church. This is what faith is.
 
1st answer, what is taught is that the breaking of bread was done in remembrance of Jesus… Nothing else is taught, implied or suggested… why would I look for a teaching that isn’t there…?

2nd. You may want to reference Genesis 9:4. And your assumption is based on Jesus being compared to physical food… and another false assumption that rejecting eating Jesus rejects Christ revelation…???

I am convinced that you have been seriously misled…

Now it’s my turn: where does God say (without scriptural contradiction) that the communion host is His actual body…??
 
So, I think this began with: where did God say that the sacraments are needed for salvation…?

Keep in mind that your answer, unless it’s a scriptural quote, will be “subjective”…

If you use scripture, feel free to show the reasoning of your interpretation.
 
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