Safe, Affordable Family Vehicle?

[2shelbys]

Every car should be just about perfect at 50k.

You are right about that but not all of them are.

 

[2shelbys]

paramedicgirl:

Larger vehicles do seem to fare better in accidents than smaller vehicles.

In my experience attending at MVA’s (motor vehicle accidents), the most dangerous place in the vehicle is right in front of the steering wheel. The steering wheel is the most lethal object in the car in a front end collision, **but if you wear your seatbelt **you can escape severe injury because you will be protected from impacting the dashboard, windshield and steering wheel. If a seatbelt is properly worn, there is a higher likelihood that the only injuries accident victims sustain may be the deceleration forces of the vehicle. Of course, there are exceptions, but for the most part, the air bag going off in your face will be your biggest complaint if you are properly restrained.

In a lateral impact collision (hit from the side) seatbelts are less useful, and can trap you in your seat in the path of an oncoming car. That is why the safest place for children to ride is in the middle of the back seat; never place a child behind the driver.

Children must always be restrained in vehicle, so please, parents, if you don’t routinely buckle up your children, start doing so! Children, because of their high centre of mass (head larger proportionately) are likely to exit by the up and over route on impact and almost always go head first.

There are 3 separate impacts in a car crash; 1, when the car comes to an abrupt stop in the collision, 2, when the vehicle occupants, (who were also travelling at the same speed as the car) collide with part of the vehicle’s structure, such as the steering wheel, windshield or dashboard, and 3, when the person’s internal organs are hurled against the bodily structures as the body decelerates (the brain gets thrown back and forth in the skull; the heart & lungs collide violently with the chest wall)

Each of the above 3 impacts that a patient suffers in a car crash involve the transfer of kinetic energy and each can be life threatening. The good news is that cars are being made a lot safer these days, with the vehicle being engineered to absorp a lot of the energy in an impact.

So Princess_Abby, by all means research vehicle safety. There is nothing more precious than your family.

An excellent and very informative post. Thank you.

 

[2shelbys]

cargopilot:

You might consider renting a car for the weekend rate of a car you are considering. That allows you to have more time than just a test drive with a salesman breathing down your neck. While it would cost you more for such an extended test drive, but considering the cost of a new car, it might just be worth the expense.

This is an excellent idea.

 

[Princess_Abby]

manualman:

Funny, isn’t it? Cars raise more emotion in discussion than just about anything except God and politics! And there are probably just about as many myths, stereotypes and misconceptions too.

First, a disclaimer of my own. Philospohically, I am sympathetic to the domestic makers. I’m an American and I’d like to spend my money on products that support my local economy. Many ‘import’ manufacturers do assemble cars here. Some even build most of the parts here. But on average, it IS true that the traditional US makes use more American parts and create more American jobs than do the ‘import’ brands. ON AVERAGE. But it varies widely by individual car!

Consumer Reports has sabotaged their reputation by basing recommendations on a skewed sample. For YEARS they have proclaimed Toyota the absolute best. MANY subscribers own them as a result. But CR ONLY sends quality surveys to subscribers. Anybody here ever take a statistics class? That’s a recipe for a self-fulfilling prophecy!

While not perfect, I prefer JD Power evaluations because they have an adequate budget to use truly random survey samples. They too rate Toyota and Honda at/near the top in initial and 5 year reliability, but the difference between them and some domestics (particularly Buick and Chevy IIRC) is not very significant! JD also notes that domestic brands have shown SIGNIFICANTLY higher reliability than Euro brands in the 5 year category.

My own driveway contains a Honda Odyssey and a VW Jetta at the moment. Funny, in light of the above, eh?

The Odyssey is assembled in the USA of 70% US made parts, including the engine. Ironically, the transmission is the only major system fully made in Japan and it is the MOST troublesome component on these vans. I frequent an Odyssey forum often and these trannies are dying left and right. Same thing with the Acura TL and RL V6. For the minivan category, I recommend the Toyota Sienna or Grand Caravan 3.8 V6. Both are quite reliable (use the proper Dodge trans fluid!) and safe. I won’t recommend the Odyssey until Honda proves they have the trans design fixed.

For smaller cars, The Matrix/Vibe are reliable, but IMO have terrible blind spots from the drivers position. Again, IMO that is a WORSE safety problem than lacking some airbag somewhere. The new Chevy Cobalt with optional side airbags scored at the TOP of the small car crash tests. These cars use the extremely well built and fairly efficient Ecotec 4 cylinder engine. A very good budget buy. You can get a new one with an extended 100k warranty for much less than a similar Civic or Corrolla with base warranty! Avoid VW unless you have a large trust fund and an extra car in the driveway. My 02 Jetta is a wonderful drive - when it works. At 50k it has needed 2 window regulators, 4 ignition coils, an engine computer, cruise control repairs, an exhaust mount… that I can remember offhand. Probably more. (I got it because it was the only powerful sedan available at that time that offered stick shift and was within my budget)

Midsize sedans. Toyota Camry or Buick LaCrosse. Dont’ pre-judge the Buick before you try it. You might be surprised. This revamped and renamed Regal was rated very highly even by Consumer Reports! The brand new Chevy Impala is similar, but I’d be wary of new model teething pains.

SUV’s. SUV’s are MUCH more susceptible to roll-over than cars and minivans. They kill their occupants in crashes more often than cars. Don’t let their mass fool you. Instability due to high center of gravity is a safety defect inherent in these beasties. Car based unibody SUV’s like the CRV, RAV4, Vue, Equinox, Escape, Pilot and Highlander are more stable than real truck SUV’s, but still not as stable as cars and minivans.

A word about depreciation. Beware some common statistics. Many depreciation rate calculations are sloppily done. They take the average used price and divide by original MSRP to determine resale ratings. Cars that commonly sold at MSRP (like my Odyssey and 95 Saturn) did great on these types of calcs. Cars that had big rebates do awful. But that figure means nothing. Consider this: Joe buys a 2002 Odyssey new and pays $30,000 when the MSRP was $29,000 (this really happened a lot). He sells in 2005 and gets $23,000. According to some, it retained 79% of original value. fred bought a Malibu for $15,000 which had MSRP of $18,500. He sells his at the same time and only gets $11,000. A rotten 59%. But in reality, it is 77% versus 73%. Not really such a big deal, is it?

If you want it to last, maintain it. Keep the fluids and filters changed. Check out weird sounds sooner than later. Read the manual. This makes much more difference in longevity than the nameplate on the front!

This is all very good information. Thanks very much.

 

[2shelbys]

manualman:

Funny, isn’t it? Cars raise more emotion in discussion than just about anything except God and politics!

How true. I doubt that there is any other product that fosters the kind of brand loyalty that vehicles do and I am as guilty as anyone else.

While not perfect, I prefer JD Power evaluations because they have an adequate budget to use truly random survey samples.

Yes, they are a good source.

SUV’s. SUV’s are MUCH more susceptible to roll-over than cars and minivans.

More susceptable than cars and minivans yes, but not necessarily a hazard unless you try to drive them in a way they are not meant to be driven.

They kill their occupants in crashes more often than cars.

Definitely not true. As I posted earlier (and paramedicgirl confirmed) the most (name removed by moderator)ortant factor in surviving an accident is the size of the vehicle you are riding in. The bigger the better. This has been confirmed in several studies including the one I mentioned by the NHTSA. There is simply no doubt about it.

Don’t let their mass fool you. Instability due to high center of gravity is a safety defect inherent in these beasties.

They are less stable than cars but calling it a “defect” is going too far. Less stable does not necessarily mean unstable. And the advantage of structural rigidity resulting from a full frame, or even better a hydroformed full frame is well worth the tradeoff.

A word about depreciation. Beware some common statistics. Many depreciation rate calculations are sloppily done. They take the average used price and divide by original MSRP to determine resale ratings. Cars that commonly sold at MSRP (like my Odyssey and 95 Saturn) did great on these types of calcs. Cars that had big rebates do awful. But that figure means nothing. Consider this: Joe buys a 2002 Odyssey new and pays $30,000 when the MSRP was $29,000 (this really happened a lot). He sells in 2005 and gets $23,000. According to some, it retained 79% of original value. fred bought a Malibu for $15,000 which had MSRP of $18,500. He sells his at the same time and only gets $11,000. A rotten 59%. But in reality, it is 77% versus 73%. Not really such a big deal, is it?

An excellent observation of a fact that most people are not aware of.

 

[CatCat]

Whatever you do, I wouldn’t buy for the family size you have, but for the family size you hope to have during the life of the car. We have a 2DR 98 Honda Civic, and I couldn’t be happier with it reliability-wise. However, DH bought it when he was single, and has a preference for the look of 2DR cars. This really stinks when you have to get a baby in and out of the backseat. Plus, in the 98 EX version, there is not a very stable way to put the baby seat in the middle, the safest place. My head is also regularly jarred by the ceiling trying to get in and out, and I’m only 5’4"! But, as far as reliability goes, it has been top notch. We have close to 190K miles on it (100K is peanuts to us with a long commute and family that lives far away), and have only had to do the regularly scheduled maintenance on it. It still has the original clutch!

Our other vehicle is a full-size regular cab Chevy Silverado 1500. Super safe as far as accidents go (most trucks are made to withstand a great deal of impact), and also good for reliability, but not as reliable as the Civic.

We have one baby now. We could deal with our cars for one more child, but it will require being a two car family if we ever want to take our two Labradors on a trip again. Most likely we won’t be able to travel like we can now. Also, two car seats in the back of the Civic won’t be fitting very well, but we just can’t afford to buy another vehicle yet. The next time, I’m going to try to figure out how many kids I could possibly discern having in 10 years, and make sure we buy a car that will hold all of them.

One final word of advice: You may want to wait until you have your ultrasound or have some way to determine exactly how many kids you will be having. My best friend made sure to wait, and was glad she did when she found out she was having twins, when she already had triplets! Just like the first time around, they took all of the car seats to the dealer, and made darn sure they would fit before buying the car. They found that a Mercury Villager van would fit three infant seats in one row, but that a Ford Expedition was what they needed to hold three toddler seats and two infant seats. The import vans and SUV’s tend to be narrower, so they won’t fit as many car seats.

 

[Princess_Abby]

CatCat:

My best friend made sure to wait, and was glad she did when she found out she was having twins, when she already had triplets! .

How cute is that!

We are definitely only having one this first time, though. But still a great tip. My cousin is pregnant with twins.

 

[paramedicgirl]

2shelbys:

Definitely not true. As I posted earlier (and paramedicgirl confirmed) the most (name removed by moderator)ortant factor in surviving an accident is the size of the vehicle you are riding in. The bigger the better. This has been confirmed in several studies including the one I mentioned by the NHTSA. There is simply no doubt about it.

Almost every paramedic in my station drives a big vehicle, from Yukons to Suburbans to Chevy 2500’s. We all recognize the safety aspect of a larger vehicle. In a front end collision the odds are with you if you are the bigger vehicle. In a rollover, though, you are not better off. (Speaking from job experience, of course).

I currently drive a PT Cruiser, and formerly had a Dodge Ram quad cab, which was my favourite vehicle. ( I am a Dodge/Chrysler fan!) For the winter I am switching to a 4X4 GMC Sierra, with studded tires, of course. A gift from my inlaws.

 

[Island_Oak]

paramedicgirl:

Almost every paramedic in my station drives a big vehicle, from Yukons to Suburbans to Chevy 2500’s. We all recognize the safety aspect of a larger vehicle. In a front end collision the odds are with you if you are the bigger vehicle. In a rollover, though, you are not better off. (Speaking from job experience, of course).

Those of us who drive the mega-SUV’s (Suburban) appreciate the added protection of their size, but ay yi yi…at $80/tank of gas it can get ugly!!

 

[2shelbys]

paramedicgirl:

Almost every paramedic in my station drives a big vehicle, from Yukons to Suburbans to Chevy 2500’s. We all recognize the safety aspect of a larger vehicle. In a front end collision the odds are with you if you are the bigger vehicle. In a rollover, though, you are not better off. (Speaking from job experience, of course).

I currently drive a PT Cruiser, and formerly had a Dodge Ram quad cab, which was my favourite vehicle. ( I am a Dodge/Chrysler fan!) For the winter I am switching to a 4X4 GMC Sierra, with studded tires, of course. A gift from my inlaws.

And who would know better than paramedics? The one SUV line that is better in a rollover is Jeep. They have what amounts to a rollcage.

I love the Ram too. Awesome truck. When I worked for a dealership I had the opportunity to do comparison drives of trucks from Dodge, Ford, Chevy, GMC, and Nissan and the Dodge was definitely the best of the bunch although Ford is a pretty close second. The Dodge had by far the best power, better handling (this is where Ford was a pretty close second), awesome brakes, the best structural rigidity, and (this is a matter of personal taste) they are the best-looking trucks on the road. You just can not beat a HEMI or a Cummins diesel.

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

paramedicgirl:

Almost every paramedic in my station drives a big vehicle, from Yukons to Suburbans to Chevy 2500’s. We all recognize the safety aspect of a larger vehicle.

Oh great…feed my fear…I drive a 2 door Geo Metro. I have never been involved in an accident in the 8 years I have owned it…but if I had I probably wouldn’t be around talking to you.

malia

 

[2shelbys]

Feanaro's Wife:

Oh great…feed my fear…I drive a 2 door Geo Metro. I have never been involved in an accident in the 8 years I have owned it…but if I had I probably wouldn’t be around talking to you.

malia

That is OK, just tie a bunch of tires around it like a tugboat!

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

2shelbys:

That is OK, just tie a bunch of tires around it like a tugboat!

LOL I just might try that

Malia

 

[manualman]

I know I’ve heard it more detailed than this:

cartalk.com/content/features/suv/downside3.html

But I only had 5 minutes to google. Can’t tell what overall effect it has on safety for occupants since you are MORE at risk of being killed in a rollover, but perhaps less at risk in a conventional frontal crash.

But, IMO, there is a moral consideration here too. Is it OK to put others at risk of being killed by YOUR SUV in order to protect yourself and your kids?? Is it OK if everybody is doing it?

Are you going to be towing heavy loads or going off-road? If not, consider the downsides carefully.

 

[BLB_Oregon]

manualman:

But, IMO, there is a moral consideration here too. Is it OK to put others at risk of being killed by YOUR SUV in order to protect yourself and your kids?? Is it OK if everybody is doing it?

I also wonder if these big rigs don’t have impaired visibility and stopping distances. That would seem to make it more likely that you could accidentally hit a child or a bicyclist… and surely, the added weight doesn’t “help” in that case!

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

BLB_Oregon:

I also wonder if these big rigs don’t have impaired visibility and stopping distances. That would seem to make it more likely that you could accidentally hit a child or a bicyclist… and surely, the added weight doesn’t “help” in that case!

True…I am sure that if I hit a child or bicyclist with my little car that the car would come out with more damage…now, if I was hit by an SUV…

Malia

 

[Princess_Abby]

I think for those of you anti-SUV and anti-truck people, you might consider that there are plenty of delivery trucks, vans and semis out on the road, too. The reality is that there is a multitude of vehicles being driven of all shapes and sizes–most of them bigger than smaller, true. And personally I think only the mega-sized SUVs are truly “big rigs.”

I feel more compelled to drive an SUV (small or mid-sized) or truck merely because it’s *somewhat better *protection (than driving a car) against all the bigger vehicles already out on the road. I have learned the hard way three times already (by being hit) and I want to be as safe as possible. I don’t feel any obligation to keep owning a small car or sedan on the road simply because it “might” make an impact safer for other vehicles. That is such a stretch of reason, IMO. Personally I care less about what kind of vehicle people drive and instead care more that they drive safely, use their rearview mirrors, signal before changing lanes or turning, obey the speed limit, do not weave in and out of traffic on the highway, keep their vehicle insured and DO NOT DRIVE UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF ANY MIND-ALTERING SUBSTANCE. I am so sick of the selfishness of unsafe and lazy drivers.

We still haven’t decided what to go with yet but I am eager to make a decision we feel confident about.

 

[MooCowSteph]

BLB_Oregon:

I also wonder if these big rigs don’t have impaired visibility and stopping distances. That would seem to make it more likely that you could accidentally hit a child or a bicyclist… and surely, the added weight doesn’t “help” in that case!

I used ti drive a jeep, not a big rig, but higher up than the car I currently have. It took some getting used to my car. I could see everything so much better in the jeep. I especially prefered driving in traffic such as you would have in the city.

 

[MooCowSteph]

manualman:

I know I’ve heard it more detailed than this:

cartalk.com/content/features/suv/downside3.html

But I only had 5 minutes to google. Can’t tell what overall effect it has on safety for occupants since you are MORE at risk of being killed in a rollover, but perhaps less at risk in a conventional frontal crash.

But, IMO, there is a moral consideration here too. Is it OK to put others at risk of being killed by YOUR SUV in order to protect yourself and your kids?? Is it OK if everybody is doing it?

Are you going to be towing heavy loads or going off-road? If not, consider the downsides carefully.

If you have the option to protect YOUR family or someone else’s family, you’d chose yours. No, not everyone on the road drives equally safe vehicles. But to say I should drive something I deem less safe because someone else could get hurt just doesn’t work for me. I do happen to drive a small car, but I plan to get a Durango soon since my first baby is on the way. They are safer than my small car. I will feel bad if I am in an accident with a small car and someone is hurt, but I’d feel even worse if I had the option to buy a larger vehicle and didn’t, and my child was hurt. With all the large vehicles on the road, I want my babies to be protected. Yes, they roll over more easily if you drive them like cars. Drive them like SUVs with higher centers of gravity and they will (most of the time) be OK. As my mom said when I got my first Jeep, “I had a friend in highschool who rolled a Bug. Anything can roll if you drive crazy”.

 

[2shelbys]

BLB_Oregon:

I also wonder if these big rigs don’t have impaired visibility and stopping distances. That would seem to make it more likely that you could accidentally hit a child or a bicyclist… and surely, the added weight doesn’t “help” in that case!

The visibility is much better than in a car or minivan because you are higher up and the windows tend to be much larger. As far as stopping distance goes it varies from one vehicle to another. Some of the Dodge pickups I have driven have brake rotors between 13.8 and 15 inches in diameter which is bigger than a lot of car wheels. When you hit the brakes in these trucks it is like driving into a sand dune. You stop NOW.