Saint Paul and Islam

[FaithofAbraham]

What i quoted is the Bible , both OT and NT…not one word of tradition…you know in your heart how poor your reply based on translation and personal remarks is compared to the scriptures i presented (a few even) where parallelism is clear to anyone who has eyes to see and ears to listen.The authors knew very well what they were writing and they knew very well the parallelism is not lost to those who want to understand. Use any translation you want, the context is the same : the Father and His Word are One.

You just used a wrong reference to Isaiah because it fits with your argument, now are trying to deny it. I think we’re done, I refuse to try to have an honest discussion all by myself.

to understand the I AM statement of Jesus, you must be familiar with contexts in both OT and NT.While the words ‘I am’ may not be profound in themselves, the way that they are formulated in John points the reader to thr OT for a correct understanding of who Jesus is.

Isaiah 43:10-12
“You are My witnesses,” declares the Lord, "And My servant whom I have chosen, In order that you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am.John 13:1-19
"From now on I am telling you before it comes to pass, so that when it does occur, you may believe that I am.

Here Jesus is talking about being the Messiah who is betrayed by his friend (Judas), son of David that David prophesied of. Nothing to do with being God.

Psalms 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.

John 13:18-19 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me. Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

And it’s like that with all of these things. You speak of correct context and then ignore it.

 

[inJESUS]

You just used a wrong reference to Isaiah because it fits with your argument, now are trying to deny it. I think we’re done, I refuse to try to have an honest discussion all by myself.

i used what? i posted both paragraphes where the same wording AND context of I AM is used in both, to show that it is not based on words but context. This applies to all the rest of the quotes, that you skipped it seems, and which gives a general idea of how the I AM of God and Jesus is used interchangeably, in not only the same wording, but same context. You can now try to show all of us that there is no parallelism of word usage and theme.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

i used what? i posted both paragraphes where the same wording AND context of I AM is used in both, to show that it is not based on words but context.

You said John 13:18-19 refers to Isaiah 43:10-12 and it doesn’t, it refers to Psalms 41:9. Tell me how you get out of Psalms 41:9 that the verse is talking about being God.

Seem you are just going through the NT and anywhere it says “I am (something)” you make it mean Jesus is saying he is God.

 

[inJESUS]

You said John 13:18-19 refers to Isaiah 43:10-12 and it doesn’t,

i was referring to the wording of Isaiah and John. Does psalm 41 use the same wording and context?

Seem you are just going through the NT and anywhere it says “I am (something)” you make it mean Jesus is saying he is God.

 

[R_not]

I have studied islam quite a bit and here is the problem as to asking a muslim why they think about anything when it disagrees with what we believe/teach.

They are not to question islam, the prophet or allah. To question is to die. They can kill, torture, steal, lie, enslave, kidnap kufir - but they cannot question. (The Chapter called Cattle tells them this)

And this is another thing - it isn’t what is in OUR minds - it is what is in THEIR minds that counts for them. They could give a whip what we believe in - they think we are wrong and that is that for them.

What they will do is practice deception (taqiyya/kithman) and tell us what we want to hear if they are cornered. They worry about their image - that is all. They are told we have distorted the Bible and that is why they don’t bother with it. All they want to do is have us say we are ‘Abrahamic’ and that is the beginning of their making us tolerate them while they do nothing in return.

 

[R_not]

Hi

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim. We don’t like Paul bashing; but we are not allured into his untrue teachings. Paul does not matter to us; we only love JesusYeshuaIssa, Mary and Jesus’ true teachings, they only matter to us.

Thanks

Even the above tells you that even the ‘peaceful’ muslim will say it is ‘untrue’ teachings. And this ‘we love only JesusYesualssa and Mary’ is a little deceiving. They do not look at him as anything other than a prophet, the son of Mary - which they say quite often which continues their belief that he is not God.

And if they loved him so much they would do something about their own who carry on that violent jihad that tells them to kill the kufir (any non-muslim) or work to subjugate them and treat them as next to slaves (dhimmi). The violent jihad is the most holy, per mohammed.

quote from ‘Blogging the Qur’an’: Chapter called Booty: Verses 5-17 refer to various incidents that took place before and during the battle, emphasizing that Allah commands warfare and protects the believers in it. The true believers were willing to go out of their homes to wage jihad warfare, although some disliked doing so and disputed with Muhammad about having to do so (vv. 5-6). This echoes 2:216: “Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you.” Allah’s promise of “one of the two enemy parties”

The koran is rife with quotes about mohammed telling his followers to fight and kill the kufir. Later he recognized that making them into subjugated peoples would benefit them because they could tax them, and do other things to them. It is one of three options for a non-muslim - death, conversion to islam, or acceptance of subjugation (dhimmitude).

 

[Lapell]

Historical facts reveal that Jesus (pbuh) did not use the word ‘Christianity’. He and his followers used to worship in the temple which other Israelites used.

The message of Jesus was to call people back to the religion of Abraham and Moses (pbut) from which they had gone astray. After the disappearance of Jesus, Paul declared that belief in Jesus sufficed for salvation.

The Jewish scholars of that time called the followers of Prophet Jesus the misguided sect of Nazarene or Galilaens.

In 43 C.E., when Paul and Barnabas went to Antioch to preach, they were ridiculed and were called ‘Christians’ by the masses. The ones who were called ‘Christians’ felt that if they are being given a name in reference to Jesus, there is nothing wrong in accepting it.

A present day analogy may be the case of Muslims being called ‘Mohammedans’ in the West and Muslims giving in to the name.

Indeed, I think the first Christians were refering to their faith as “the Way” before they were first called Christians in Antioch. Now I think this conversation could also involve Jews, because I think I read statements by Jewish authors that saint Paul was the one who led the Apostles and Jesus’ disciples to believe that Jesus not only is the Messiah, but also the Lord God, as though he was the one who invented this notion… they seem to respect the prophet in Jesus, but they certainly don"t believe Jesus can be God the Son. However, as shocking as this is to them ( and maybe to Muslims, too), we believe this claim, of which Paul isn’t the author, but Jesus himself… even though some letters of Paul were written way before the Gospels.
Certainly a man cannot become God, but if God is almighty, can’t He become a man?

 

[kjsings]

I have read many of the responses in this thread. There are many good and attempting to heal, there are also many that seem determined to define bridges between Islam and Christianity.

We need to pray that our Holy Father, Pope Benedict, and the leaders of the Catholic Church are blessed with wisdom and keen insight as they try to progress the dialog with the leaders of the Islamic community.

There are many good and true things in Islamic writings and history, and many painful ones, just as there in the Catholic church.

I ask that you consider of the teachings of Islam and Catholicism, which do we have in common? We believe in a mono-theistic God, rooted to the time of Abraham. But, Muslims deny the divinity of Christ and categorize Catholics as polytheists as a result. Muslims recognize a unique and blessed role of Mary, but, by denying Christ’s divinity, they deny her status as Queen mother of the Christ.

If we look for differences, we will continue to find many. Placing our Catholic Creed in front of a Muslim and asking them to check off the items they agree with would be very problematic.

When we look at the areas of theological similarity, we can also immediately note differences. Catholics believe in a loving God, a Creator, Rule Giver, Father, a Spirit Wind, a Savior, and a bridegroom for the church. His way is narrow, his path is clear. Our responses are human and vary greatly, often based on our personal understanding orf scripture, teaching, and tradition.

Muslims have a much more singular persona for Allah, and are troubled by the facets we ascribe to God. Allah’s path is also narrow, and Muslims seem to do a much better job of staying to the narrow path.

Christians by the definition of their faith, seek peaceful means to achieving God’s will. Those who do not, are definitively not following Christ’s will. They are denied and chastened by Christians for their un-Christ-like actions.

While many Muslims are on a productive, positive path related to the world, there are many, many who practice destructive methods to achieve goals claimed in the name of Islam.

What is true and in common between Catholicism and Islam:

• We were all created and will be judged by the same God. We hold many subordinate beliefs in common.
• When we assess our beliefs and practices in parallel, we will continue to see differences.
• We need to identify the beliefs and practices that are at least congruent, and cooperate on those.
• Where we disagree, we must have a dialog of mutual respect, or, there will be no civility between us.

So, this yields many questions. The first I would offer:

Can Christians live and openly practice their faith in an Islamic country where sharia is the rule of the land?

God bless us all.

 

[Lapell]

What is the name of this “different gospel” that Paul was very likely referring to in the passage that you quoted from the Bible?

Let us examine historical evidence in order to determine the answer to this question.

The apostle Barnabas died in 61 CE and the gospel that he was widely believed to have wrote was compiled in 51 CE.

The Epistle to the Galatians was not written before 54 to 58 CE and considering that no other gospel was in existence at this time and since it is also known that Barnabas was indeed preaching some “gospel” contrary to that of Paul’s during this period, it is therefore logical to believe that the gospel that Barnabas wrote is very likely indeed to be the “other gospel” that Paul was referring to in Galatians.

Dear Hamba2han, what saint Paul was referring to was false teachings which would be presented as part of the Gospel, which by the way was first taught orally and then later was put into writings. I think this would suffice in justifying Paul’s words.
In Islam, isn’t it true that the words Muhammad received were first taught orally before they were put into writings after a while?

 

[Lapell]

thank you for the link. I have already read this gospel. You previously said :

The apostle Barnabas died in 61 CE and the gospel that he was widely believed to have wrote was compiled in 51 CE.

You did not need to read it all to realize it was neither written by an apostle nor by a Hebrew!

At the very start of the Gospel of Barnabas Jesus is called the Christ: **God has during these past days visited us by his prophet Jesus Christ **(p.2). However, throughout the book Jesus denies being the Messiah: Jesus confessed and said the truth, “I am not the Messiah” (chap. 42). How can Jesus be the Christ and deny being the Messiah when both words mean exactly the same thing? Whoever wrote this book did not know the Greek meaning of the word Christ is Messiah. Barnabas was a Hebrew who lived on the island of Cyprus, a Greek-speaking island, and travelled around the 1st century Greek-speaking world!. He was Hebrew and knew Greek and could not have made this mistake with such a famous word.

this is only an example to show you that a disciple of Jesus would neither deny Jesus being the Messiah, nor would he as ignorant as not knowing that Christ = Messiah.

See how easily impressed you are?

Well put, inJesus! I couldn’t have put it better!

 

[R_not]

Can Christians live and openly practice their faith in an Islamic country where sharia is the rule of the land?

No, they cannot. And a lot of this is a problem in their minds. It is how they feel and think, and this is the problem. We have had a whole heck of a lot of Christians, and others (Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, etc) slaughtered by muslims in the past and present since it is still going on in over 35 hotspots around this world.

Their goal is indeed to bring sharia law even to our lands. They look at any land not in ‘dar al islam’ (the land of islam) as being in ‘dar al harb’ (the land of war). And even if we are not experiencing total violent jihad (since we have seen jihadists kill us in our country even though we don’t like to admit to it, or call it what it is) they are indeed doing jihad. There are other types of jihad - and I am not talking that ‘inner spiritual struggle’ either. They are doing hudna - basically increasing their numbers and also taqiyya/kithman (deception). If they were in battle it would refer to making a truce with the enemy, and regrouping and rearming to enable them to fight again. For others it is just building their numbers (immigration/uncontrolled birth rates).

We continue to think in our terms when thinking of islam. It is not how we think - it is how THEY think.

For a muslim, no truce can last longer than 10 years and it can be broken at any time beforehand. This is why all this peace planning with Israel is so futile. We saw it time and again when Arafat was in charge how they continually broke the peace while claiming they were the victims when they were not. They were, and are, the aggressors. The more money we give them the more bombs they lob into Israel.

 

[Lapell]

TThis was quoted *If there be a true way that leads to the Everlasting Kingdom, it is most certainly that of suffering, patiently endured. – St. Colette *

Question for you. How much suffering does one have to go through before God will let that person into His Kingdom?

What does this have to do with saint Paul and Islam, if I may ask?

 

[R_not]

I didn’t post that.

 

[Lapell]

**I am sorry, I have no such list. But a comaprison can be made by reading the actual gospel of the real disciples (the four gospels) and the other parts of NT bible (Romans etc) and it is easy to see the difference. Paul was not prophesied in the bible OT. He is not mentioned in the Quran while John Baptist and Jesus and Mary and disciples are described with extra ordinary praise in the Quran. It is a revealed book and there is no mention of paul there. Why is that?? Then why are John and Jesus and Mary and disciples described in the Quran with all good words.

So many other prophets also from the time of Adam are described in the Quran, all Jewish prophets are mentioned. Paul is not mentioned in the Quran and bible OT.

There are many prophesies about Jesus in bible OT. But there is nothing about paul if he was so important to have taken over everything of christianity?? He was not even a disciple, a comrade of Jesus. Christians can believe in anything, whatever they like. But Muslims will never give any thought to paul for the reasons stated above.**

O.K., whom is the Bible all about? And the New Testament? And the Gospel? And, are all the prophets of Israel mentionned in the Qoran? I doubt it very much…

 

[Lapell]

There are about .05% of all Jews believing in Jesus, that’s not a lot. They mostly believe he is God, along with the Christians.
But fact is verses like Hebrews say differently.

Yes, like the word “almah” in Isaiah’s Immanuel-prophecy, which today Jews claim to mean only “young girl” and not “virgin”, while apparently in Isaiah’s time it probably had both meanings, just like the word “virgo” in latin!

 

[R_not]

O.K., whom is the Bible all about? And the New Testament? And the Gospel? And, are all the prophets of Israel mentionned in the Qoran? I doubt it very much…

Since mohammed was illiterate and also a pagan the only OT prophets are probably the ones he heard about. If you read the koran you will find that the OT stories are a jumble from what we have learned. But, mohammed covers himself very well by saying that the Christians and the Jews have rewritten the Bible so that it makes the Bible not worth anything in their eyes.

They claim that all the great prophets, including Jesus, are really muslims.

It is why they only read the koran in their schools and mosques. They do not know anything else - the 10 commandments, psalms, etc. And that the only thing that is a sin in their eyes is ‘shirk’ while murder, torture, rape, enslavement, kidnapping, stealing, and lying are ok against the kufir, and even ‘honor killings’ are ok. That is in the chapter called, Cattle.

To compare Christianity, or any other religion, to islam is hard to do. To compare communism to islam is easier to do. It is more of a political movement that uses religion as a front. It is an ‘either you are with me or you are against me’ type of mentality.

 

[Lapell]

Logos in context to anything is just words and sayings of anyone, see for yourself:

LOGOS

In the context of John 1:1 it’s the words of God. It’s not another little God there that turns into a man. Unless you filter it through the perception of Gentile Greek mythology and comfort in demigods.

And what do you make of Jesus’ own declaration in the Gospel according to John: “Amen I tell you: before Abraham was, I AM.” At this the Jews were shocked and gathered stones to stone Jesus, but he then had escaped because his time had not come, the author of that Gospel tells us.

 

[Lapell]

There is a BIG “No” to your question/preposition.

Because God cannot do anything as you want Him to do.

What God does is: He does what He wants, and not what you want Him to be/become/do.

That He does what He wants probably shocks you then, if He chose to become a man in order to redeem humanity…

 

[Lapell]

The question still remains unanswered by you- what explains those reactions when Jesus says ‘I AM’

Will FaithOfAbraham answer THIS question?

 

[abucs]

We should be kind to eachother but after day and night you muslims coming on a Catholic site and repeating the world according to ‘narrow mindedness’ which basically says Catholicism is wrong with your laughable, unfounded and insulting history claims which denigrate the Christian church:
i am forced to say what many Christians views are on Islam -

that is, you should worry less on the divinity of Christ and more on a fifty years old plus Muhammod saying that an angel told him in a dream he could wed a six year old girl, lie with her and rub his genitals against her and then at the age of 9 have sex with her.
Islam is not a continuation of Christianity in any way let alone a better way.

Muslims do not beleive in the bible. They say they do but anywhere there is a contradiction, like praying for you enemies (Jesus) or being told not to pray for even unbelievers (Muhammad) then the koran takes precedence and the muslim mind automatically says the bible was corrupted, without any evidence and against all historical records to the contrary.

This is not believing in the bible but taking Christians to be easily led idiots and is insulting every time it is mentioned.

No one spoke of Muhammad in the OT, Muhammad fulfilled no prophecies, took away no sin, was not resurrected, was not crowned as the new David to fulfil the promise of God.

He PERSONALLY was responsible for widespread death including beheadings in cold blood and torture of prisoners, he was responsible for theft and rape on a large scale, forced women as his wives (ahem - sex slaves) after torturing and killing their husbands and left a book (written by his followers) that is a complete non co-herant embarressment to the vast majority of non muslims who read it.

Because it is so obviously not only a false religion, but one that does not claim within itself to be the equal of Christianity’s claims in prophecy or revelation or action, muslims are REDUCED to denigrating Christianity that claims to be so much more in order for its followers to somehow think Muhammad actually did something inspired by God and was the greatest prophet.

I have travelled in Muslim lands and know many pious and loving muslims who are a credit to God. I pray for them that when their religion is self examined more closely that they don’t tear themselves apart in civil war because at some stage Islam will be internally rejected by large number of muslims when it is safe to do so.

When those societies start to publicly reject Muhammad i pray God will be with them in their suffering and continue to make them strong through his grace.

I pray for them not as enemies, but brothers in Christ who took away their sins also should they continue to remain in God in fulfilment of the long awaited Messianic prophecies given many times from the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

May his kingdom come and bring peace on the earth

answering-islam.org.uk/Bible/Text/wijngaards.html

answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/index.html