Saint Xavier Catholic Church in NYC - "Do you affirm that white privilege is unfair"--"Woke" Catholic Church

[YADA]

But is not the priest and yourself arguing that “white privilege” exists with no limits?

You and others here have stated that ‘white privilege’ means that white people benefit no matter what, whether they realize it or not. Whether they can discern that benefit or not.

I would argue that position is in and of itself a presumption that all whites are privileged …

If ‘all whites are privileged’ is not the case - as you are now asserting - can you explain which white people are excluded from the ‘white privilege’ the congregants were asked to combat?

 

[pnewton]

But is not the priest and yourself arguing that “white privilege” exists with no limits?

Nothing like “with no limits” was said in any formulation of the pledge the priest read. That has been an add on by others. The whole thing is rather open ended, meaning it applies, or not. The individual is to look to himself to see.

Racism is not really a problem where I live, and what there is, is more geared to the Hispanic than the black. I think this is because my community did not exist back in the Jim Crow era and was mostly built and grew during the Civil Rights movement of the 60’s. We did not talk of being “woke” or anything. We were just integrated as we grew.

 

[YADA]

It may have not been said - and I suppose that is the problem … You say it is open ended - but the way it is presented is actually not open ended … white is used and in the context - there is no limiting identifier on who perpetrates that white privilege … ergo it is all encompassing … and by even the most minimal of definitions - white privilege is something that accrues through thru birth - it is something you are born with - and it is totally due to the origins of ones skin tone. Which is in and of itself a racist understanding.

Similarly the idea of systemic racism … it negates the complexity of the American experience, history, remedial actions to correct wrongs due to differences of coloration of skin, cultural differences and other social realities. It treats all peoples and their resulting existence outcomes as totally influenced by the color of their skin. However, …

We know that this is not the case. Successful people - of all colors - exist across this country. There are also people who are failures … and a host of people between the two extremes … and the reasons are legion - it is not simple nor is it all due to ‘white privilege’.

And attempting to eliminate racism in the manner that seems to be at the forefront in today’s world is in my opinion only fostering greater division and fomenting hate and discontent.

 

[gam197]

billsherman:

Post 156, if you forgot.

I did not forget and still trying to listen to the whole mass.

I can see that he does this prayer at the end of communion but before clearing the altar which is not appropriate. There is no communion possibly because of Covid-19. He does a prayer instead.

I also watched his August 2 and August 16 mass. His August second (2) mass he spends close to 15 minutes doing a homily on social justice. On August 16, he has another priest who does the homily. During both masses, these pictures are seen but they are not on the altar but behind a male singer to the side.

Here is his August 2 mass where he talks about racial justice, BLM and the living wage, a very long homily.

 

[pnewton]

Similarly the idea of systemic racism … it negates the complexity of the American experience, history, remedial actions to correct wrongs due to differences of coloration of skin, cultural differences and other social realities.

I have to disagree, at least half-way. Statistically, we have a lot of evidence to show we still have some systemic racism, especially in the criminal justice system. This does not negate other factors. I said I only disagree half-way because I do agree that your response is correct for those who over-emphasize systemic racism, to the virtual exclusion of those complexities you mention.

I do not have the answer on how to respond to racism today. It seems we have gone backwards. Trump is not to blame, at least no alone. Progressives have gone too far, in my own opinion, in exaggerating the role of race, creating a type of digging in of the heels of those of a different political persuasion. For my part, I will stand mostly on the progressive side of this one issue, though I do not agree with them completely.

 

[pnewton]

I can see that he does this prayer at the end of communion but before clearing the altar which is not appropriate.

I have spent some time tonight on NYC archdiocese website trying to find some instructions. I know some bishops are changing things up to accommodate mandatory local requirements. I know we have changed a few things, like no altar servers and thus the vessels are not removed to the sacristy.

 

[gam197]

gam197:

I can see that he does this prayer at the end of communion but before clearing the altar which is not appropriate.

I have spent some time tonight on NYC archdiocese website trying to find some instructions. I know some bishops are changing things up to accommodate mandatory local requirements. I know we have changed a few things, like no altar servers and thus the vessels are not removed to the sacristy.

There is no communion, he does a prayer at this time yet he himself takes communion so it may be because of the virus that he is not allowed. There is both a homily and later after communion this prayer.

I do not find his mass much different except the priest allows these posters on the altar and does this extra prayer which I do not think belong there.

Kind of an odd post yesterday by Saint Xavier on their facebook webpage

While US Bishops are complicit in white privilege, New York City parish leads way forward in fight against racism

Apparently they had a petition that Cardinal Dolan did not respond to.

On June 19, 2020 nine members of Xavier’s choir initiated a letter to Cardinal [Timothy Dolan]
(Done with Dolan: New York's cardinal is unfit to serve as a Church leader - Novena) petitioning him to take an unequivocal stance against racism – especially regarding institutional and systemic racism – and calling on him to develop a comprehensive plan “to address institutional white privilege in the Archdiocese going forward.”

 

[YADA]

I do not deny that there are some ignorant people who are racist and overtly so - they are very few

There is racism that may seem systemic - but it is minor in today’s society and laws are in place in this country that make systemic racism illegal. How to help those who were impacted int he past overcome the residual affects are needed. With the caveat that those policies need to be well thought out in order to not do even greater harm - the War on Poverty from the mid 1960s is a great example. That legislation has done a great deal of harm - across every American demographic - but the African American community has been the most harmed.

As the grandparent of an African American [half] granddaughter and a Hispanic granddaughter - I want their future to be awesome - for them to be all that they can be. I want the same for all 8 of my grandchildren - not just those 2. My granddaughter won the “Young and Talented African American Award” at her school a few years ago. This young lady is intelligent, athletic and artistic - she is beautiful and has a delightful demeanor, friendly, helpful and every parents dream teenager. None of that has anything to do with her being an African American. That award, though I was happy for her, I feel sends a racist message. As if being a talented African American is unusual and therefor worthy of note … or to the Caucasian kid that somehow being African American is better, special or worthy of extra prizes because there is no “Young and Talented Caucasian” award … and I wondered - did they also have similar awards for the Hispanics and Asian kids? Would the ‘white’ Hispanic kids be excluded from the Hispanic award?

Now we have people telling us that tradition families comprised of a married Mom and Dad and their offspring is a form of white supremacy. Its a patriarchal construct meant to keep people of color enslaved …

We have white people passing themselves off as African American, politicians claiming minority status and rich liberal people bribing colleges in order to get their children enrolled due to college acceptance policies that ignore college test scores and demonstrated academic records in favor of ethnicity quotas - which discriminate against Asian students more than any other demographic.

Affirmative action policies almost guarantee that the minority or female candidate that is hired is never seen as being the best candidate, a well qualified candidate or anything other than selected doe to their AA status … which is a travesty since the vast majority of them are in fact well qualified [best qualified is a judgment that is not quantifiable]. So the injustice - discrimination in hiring - is seen then as being unjustly applied in the reverse and therefore just applied to a new class of victim … OR the discrimination is seen as being reversed but not due to the merits of the candidate but because of an arbitrary decision that disenfranchises some or all.

It is very complex - but some might take a different path

 

[billsherman]

It has been said over and over again, the words “white privilege” is political rhetoric.

And that is wrong. You can say it is “political rhetoric” until you are blue in the face, but that doesn’t make it so.

Matters of racial justice are moral issues that the Church has spoken about over, and over again. Moral issues are not “political issues” that can be safely ignored, they are moral imperatives that Catholics are bound to try and correct.

Why is it ok to pray to end abortion at mass, but not pray to end racial injustice (of which white privilege is one form)?

For examples on the Church speaking out on the moral imperative of ending racial injustice:

https://www.usccb.org/committees/ad-hoc-committee-against-racism

Archbishop Gregory: Catholics must stand against race and gender injustices | America Magazine

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/03/868503678/pope-francis-prays-for-george-floyd-decries-the-sin-of-racism

Pope Francis' message to U.S. Catholics after the killing of George Floyd - CBS News

 

[Annie]

I thought I had included all the points the priest called but I see I may have missed some:

Pastor Holler: I now invite you to stand and join us in the prayer for racial justice by responding ‘yes’ to each of the following statements.

Pastor Holler: Do you support racial justice, equity and compassion in real human human relations?
St Francis Xavier Congregation: Yes.

Pastor Holler: Do you affirm that white privilege is unfair and harmful to those who have it and to those who do not?
St Francis Xavier Congregation: Yes.

Pastor Holler: Do you affirm that white privilege and the culture of white supremacy must be dismantled wherever it is present?
St Francis Xavier Congregation: Yes.

Pastor Holler: Do you support racial equity, justice, and liberation for every person?
St Francis Xavier Congregation: Yes.

Pastor Holler: Do you affirm the inherent worth and dignity of every person?
St Francis Xavier Congregation: Yes.

Pastor Holler: Therefore, from this day forward, will you strive to understand more deeply the injustice and suffering white privilege and white supremacy cause?
St Francis Xavier Congregation: Yes.

Pastor Holler: Will you commit to help transform our church culture to one that is actively engaged in seeking racial justice and equity for everyone?
St Francis Xavier Congregation: Yes.

Pastor Holler: Will you make a greater effort to treat all people with the same respect you expect to receive?
St Francis Xavier Congregation: Yes.

Pastor Holler: Will you commit to developing the courage to live your beliefs and values of racial justice and equality?
St Francis Xavier Congregation: Yes.

Pastor Holler: Will you strive to eliminate racial prejudice from your thoughts and actions so that you can better promote the racial justice efforts of our church?
St Francis Xavier Congregation: Yes.

Pastor Holler: Will you renew and honor this pledge daily knowing that our church and our community, our nation and our world will be better places because of our efforts?
St Francis Xavier Congregation: Yes.

Pastor Holler: Let us pray. Complete within us, oh God, we pray the healing work of Your mercy. And graciously perfect and sustain us so that in all things, we may please you through Christ our Lord. Amen.

 

[gam197]

Matters of racial justice are moral issues that the Church has spoken about over, and over again. Moral issues are not “political issues” that can be safely ignored, they are moral imperatives that Catholics are bound to try and correct.

Why is it ok to pray to end abortion at mass, but not pray to end racial injustice (of which white privilege is one form)?

We seldom pray to end abortion , maybe one or twice a year usually during January so if that is your measure for prayer, it is very limited. Contraception, never ever hear that talked about.

We regularly hear homilies on social justice and I have no problem with that as long as it is during the homily and the homily is usually of a short duration about 5-7 minutes. Would I be happy if the priest talked about “white privilege” , or made me affirm “white privilege” by responding yes to repetitive dialogue, no I would not.

This is today’s mass at Saint Xavier’s, September 6th and the again the long homily is about the “jubilee for the earth” and social justice. so it appears this is a regular dialogue.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=360006428369244

Again during the mass, this is another priest but he also does the same “white privilege” prayer so maybe this is becoming a regular prayer affirmation at this church and these priests and this church are changing the liturgy. but no pictures on the altar.

The week this prayer is being done prior to receiving communion and dialogue on how to receive (so now communion must be allowed) and there is a final blessing . The receiving communion after the final blessing might be change in response to Covid-19.

 

[Feanor2]

gam197:

it is not a time to get political

Why is the issue of racial justice political? Doesn’t every Catholic demand racial justice?

They don’t really think there is a problem or if there is it is minute.

And some even believe racial injustice primarily affects white people. It’s weird.

 

[gam197]

billsherman:

Why is the issue of racial justice political? Doesn’t every Catholic demand racial justice?

They don’t really think there is a problem or if there is it is minute.

And some even believe racial injustice primarily affects white people. It’s weird.

No one has a problem with dialogue about social justice, what is happening at this church is a change to the liturgy and a take on “white privilege”

We need to pray for this church as it is slandering all its bishops on its facebook page.

While US Bishops are complicit in white privilege, New York City parish leads way forward in fight against racism

 

[phil3]

Now we have people telling us that tradition families comprised of a married Mom and Dad and their offspring is a form of white supremacy

I have been told this years ago I explained that my wife and I were very careful to save for a rainy day. My parent taught me how to do so. The person replied that my white privilege allowed me to have two loving parents to raise me. Go figure that one out. I am sure someone here will come up with some convoluted reasoning to justify it

 

[blackforest]

So he mentions “white privilege” only twice, once to call it harmful and unfair, and again to ask for it to be dismantled.

Why these statements are the target of breathless moral outrage is beyond me.

Then he states:

Pastor Holler: Do you affirm the inherent worth and dignity of every person?
St Francis Xavier Congregation: Yes.

Some people, (not directed at you personally) are determined to twist his words into, “All whites are privileged therefore racist and evil.”

But that contradicts the “of every person,” which should be enough to keep the all-lives-matter people happy. (Alas, nothing will. )

 

[blackforest]

That’s sort of the whole debate here - about whether or not references to racism and white privilege are “political.” One camp of us is arguing that these are moral issues directly pertaining to our obligations as Catholics. The other is insisting on politicizing and controverting it. I’d suggest that a reference to dismantling a British presence in Ireland is terribly political; vowing to dismantle privilege and its resulting injustices is moral.

 

[Annie]

Some people, (not directed at you personally) are determined to twist his words into, “All whites are privileged therefore racist and evil.”

As it turns out, the version I originally put up was shortened. The longer version (in post #250) had two references to white supremacy.

Pastor Holler: Do you affirm that white privilege and the culture of white supremacy must be dismantled wherever it is present?

Pastor Holler: Therefore, from this day forward, will you strive to understand more deeply the injustice and suffering white privilege and white supremacy cause?

 

[WingedHussar]

The entire nation of Israel was taken into slavery in Egypt. The entire American nation never was.

The moral principle involved is still reasonable.

There is no moral principle involved anymore than eating or not eating bacon. This was a specific command applying only to a specific set of circumstances. The Council of Jerusalem negated the laws found in Leviticus and Deuteronomy with 3 exceptions.

Though if you want to live under the laws of Leviticus and Deuteronomy, are you going to accept all the laws or just the ones you find supportive of your political leanings?

I also note that whenever the Jews turned away from following the laws laid out in Leviticus and Deutoronomy, God punished them by subjecting them to foreign conquerors. Theoretically if the laws of Leviticus and Deuteronomy still apply to nations other than Old Testament Israel, perhaps that explains why the British still occupy the northern part of Ireland?

 

[WingedHussar]

The person replied that my white privilege allowed me to have two loving parents to raise me. Go figure that one out. I am sure someone here will come up with some convoluted reasoning to justify it

Huh, and I thought 2 parent families were forced on the black community as a recent thread claimed. The unspoken implication of “white privilege” is that you were born lucky. That is a fallacy. If you were born to another family, you would be a different person entirely. You are the result of your ancestors’ choices, the good and the bad. You are you and it could not be otherwise.

But that contradicts the “of every person,” which should be enough to keep the all-lives-matter people happy. (Alas, nothing will. )

Gotta watch out for those all-lives-matter people. Why they are so unhappy they burned down Minneapolis, Portland, Seattle, and Kenosha!

 

[WingedHussar]

That is not my opinion on the issue of the situation in Ireland, just the logical result of the idea that the laws of Leviticus and Deuteronomy are still relevant. If you do not like it, you need to reexamine your premises.