Salvation by works vs Salvation by Grace alone

[rinnie]

The Christian Tradition helped me better appreciate Catholicism, but I ultimately found certain Catholic teachings (e.g. Purgatory) as not grounded in the Christian Tradition.

I was taught that Purgatory was believed in the O.T by the Early Father’s of the Church. You may want to check that out.

 

[JonNC]

=rinnie;7679063]Oh Yes Jon, I believe that for us (RC) we receive that grace within days of our birth. Baptism. For some it takes a little longer. But when we are Baptised it is the beginning of the Holy Spirit the seed of Light and life that is planted into us.

A month and a day after I was born.

Then like for myself for example the seed was watered and grew over the next 13 years of my life, Catholic school, The Holy Eucharist, Confession, then Confirmation.

Wish there had been Lutheran school near me when growing up. That said, my daughter is training as we speak to teach in Lutheran parochial schools!
I share with you the other three.

THen it seems like I took some time off. I graduated, always went to church on Sunday, but took for granted what I was given. Thats when I think my Grace I was given kinda took a spring break lets say

Then when I hit 19 I got married in the Church and received the Sacrament of marriage, then when my husband studied the faith, it was like when you have kids and you live out your own childhood all over again. He asked alot of questions and I forgot alot of the answers I was like ask my Dad he explains it better.

Then we had kids, I kNEW they had to know the Lord, then as they became older I learned I better practice what I preach. ITs not what I preached they learned, its what I practiced

Then actually just yesterday believe it or not, I was asked how did you 2 make it. Because so so many in my age group (40’s) didn’t seem to make it. I said when we got married we invested in good stock!

He said what kind of stock. I said well, I didn’t know it at the time, but one thing I did right in my life was no matter how tired I was, or broke, or angry, or happy or sad etc I never missed Church on Sunday. Neither of us did.

So I found out that while I may have neglected my faith as far as to continue my Education in my faith, The Holy Spirit keep feeding it on those Sundays by the power of the HS through the Eucharist.

It was that power that was so strong from God that carried us through all of the trouble that we had ahead of us. I tell my daughter if there is one thing that you do right in your married life, Go to Church together. Even when you do not realize it, you are investing in your future.

As usual when I thought many of those (wasted Sundays) I was fulfilling my obligation to God, little did I know, he was giving me back a million times more Grace that I would need to continue my struggle in life. Isn’t that just like God, when you think you are doing something for him, he gives you the gifts!

If I could zap people and have magic to give them ONE thing in this world, it would not be money, power, good looks, it would be the EUCHARIST. The living Christ. Because money can be lost, power, good looks etc. But the Grace of Christ, that the Stock that will never fall!!

This is agreat story, rinnie, or the power of the Holy Spirit in your life, and the sanctification He has brought to you, even when you were unaware of it!!

Jon

 

[Madaglan]

I think the concept of purgatory came from our Jewish roots. Just curious as to why you think it is not grounded in Tradition?

Prayer for the dead has its roots in Jewish tradition. It’s described in 2 Maccabees. Prayer for the dead is mentioned in early Christians writings. However, Purgatory itself seemed to me to be a later logical development of the belief that all sin must be purged and all temporal punishment due to sin suffered before one can enter heaven.

 

[Madaglan]

I was taught that Purgatory was believed in the O.T by the Early Father’s of the Church. You may want to check that out.

1 Corinthians 3:15 often is quoted by Catholics as describing Purgatory. It reads, “If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.” The Catholic interpretation is that one will be saved (enter heaven), but only after going through the Hell-like sufferings of Purgatory.

The ancient Eastern Patristic interpretation, however, is somewhat different. St. John Chrysostom, for example, interprets this verse as referring to the damned rather than those ensured heaven. The damned will be saved, that is they will not suffer loss of their being (God in his love cannot destroy the existence of a person) but their salvation will be an eternal and painful experience of the ever-presence of God’s love which they reject.

St. Augustine makes mention of purging, and perhaps comes closest to what later would become known as Purgatory. Yet even here it ought to be pointed out that he speaks of an action, not a place or state comparable to Heaven and Hell, which only would be established later through a series of logical deductions regarding prayer for the dead, sin, temporal punishment, etc.

 

[JRKH]

**1 Corinthians 3:15 often is quoted by Catholics as describing Purgatory. It reads, “If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: **but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.****” The Catholic interpretation is that one will be saved (enter heaven), but only after going through the Hell-like sufferings of Purgatory.

The ancient Eastern Patristic interpretation, however, is somewhat different. St. John Chrysostom, for example, interprets this verse as referring to the damned rather than those ensured heaven. The damned will be saved, that is they will not suffer loss of their being (God in his love cannot destroy the existence of a person) but their salvation will be an eternal and painful experience of the ever-presence of God’s love which they reject.

St. Augustine makes mention of purging, and perhaps comes closest to what later would become known as Purgatory. Yet even here it ought to be pointed out that he speaks of an action, not a place or state comparable to Heaven and Hell, which only would be established later through a logical deduction.

If I may…I think that you have hit on an essential issue here. That is the confusion about “Purgation” and “Purgatory”. The Quote from 1 Cor speaks of a purgation and It seems that both East and West agree that such a Purgation occurs. The “logical deduction” that you mention flows from the idea that, if one is too “impure” for heaven but not bad enough for hell, there must be a state or place where the purgation occurs. Hence the term “purgatory” or “the place of purgation”.

The other aspect of this is one of time. Some (particularly some protestants) feel that such purgation is fairly instantanious and so there is no “place” needed for the purgation. Rather it is simply part of ones judgement before God. Others see it as something requiring much time.
But time is something that God is not bound by so we really don’t know how earthly time factors into the whole issue.

To me the essential concept, and the one we should focus on, is the idea of the action of purgation rather than on whether it exists as a specific place or not…For even allowing for purgatory as a place, it is a transatory one just like earth. Our final destinations remain either heaven or hell.

Peace
James

 

[dje101]

:dts::doh2::banghead:

I don’t know much about dispensationalism, but I am repeatedly astounded by what I here coming from the mouths of some who claim to be “Sola Scripturists”.

Just the other day I was visited by a JW who, when I confronted him over John 1 (the word was God…) tried to say that that passage wasn’t important…:doh2:
As you can imagine, his was a short visit.

Peace
James

My brother loves conversations with JW…so much so that when they came by one day, my dad asked them to leave because he didn’t want to speak with them. When my brother found out, he ran down the street bare foot to speak with them and point out some of the errors in their doctrine.

 

[JRKH]

My brother loves conversations with JW…so much so that when they came by one day, my dad asked them to leave because he didn’t want to speak with them. When my brother found out, he ran down the street bare foot to speak with them and point out some of the errors in their doctrine.

hehehe - that’s an interesting picture. Bet they never had that happen before. I’m sure he left an impression on them…

In my case, I’m afraid I did not leave much of an impression, which I don’t mind too much. My only problem is I tend to get a little too forceful. When he told me that the transalation issue wasn’t important, I told him that if one is to believe the bible (something he asked me earlier) they had better get the translation right and then get the interpretation right.

I also mentioned Sola Scriptura in passing and he had never heard the term before…

Anyway it didn’t take long and he has to leave to "get to another appointment.

Peace
James

 

[rinnie]

1 Corinthians 3:15 often is quoted by Catholics as describing Purgatory. It reads, “If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.” The Catholic interpretation is that one will be saved (enter heaven), but only after going through the Hell-like sufferings of Purgatory.

The ancient Eastern Patristic interpretation, however, is somewhat different. St. John Chrysostom, for example, interprets this verse as referring to the damned rather than those ensured heaven. The damned will be saved, that is they will not suffer loss of their being (God in his love cannot destroy the existence of a person) but their salvation will be an eternal and painful experience of the ever-presence of God’s love which they reject.

St. Augustine makes mention of purging, and perhaps comes closest to what later would become known as Purgatory. Yet even here it ought to be pointed out that he speaks of an action, not a place or state comparable to Heaven and Hell, which only would be established later through a series of logical deductions regarding prayer for the dead, sin, temporal punishment, etc.

Purgatory is taught to us more of a state of being. What purgatory is, it is a state of letting go of your sin and cleaning yourself of the sin, and not only getting rid of the sin, you must get rid of the love of that sin.

Purgatory can be very well lived in this world . We can be purged. cleansed from this sin here on earth by our confession. For many of us the purgatory is lived right now and today to rid ourself of the sins we have.

I have been really reflecting on the true meaning of purgatory, and when we pray for the souls in purgatory, I believe we all seem to believe that is when People are dead.

And actually it is praying for the souls that are dead, but being dead does not mean one is dead as in death of this world. Because what is death of the soul? Simply being in the STATE of Sin.

So I have come to the conclusion Purgatory is a state of being, that is a process of getting rid of our sins here and now. It is a state that we are in trying to cleanse oneself of that sin. That is why we pray for the souls in purgatory because what we are actually doing is praying for one another in a state of sin, who is either out of sin, and working out the love for that sin, or trying to rid oneself of the sin. That is why our prayers work.

Because Purgatory is a state just like sin is a state. It is a state of being. If we rid ourself from that sin, then we have been purged from that sin, cleansed from that sin and are now free from it, and if death would come upon us, and God sees that we are indeed free from all sin, we would be made righteous in his eyes for eternal life with him in heaven.

 

[rinnie]

My brother loves conversations with JW…so much so that when they came by one day, my dad asked them to leave because he didn’t want to speak with them. When my brother found out, he ran down the street bare foot to speak with them and point out some of the errors in their doctrine.

When my Dad was alive he was the only one that they ran from. If they would come to the door and see him it was like We remember you now

 

[rinnie]

If I may…I think that you have hit on an essential issue here. That is the confusion about “Purgation” and “Purgatory”. The Quote from 1 Cor speaks of a purgation and It seems that both East and West agree that such a Purgation occurs. The “logical deduction” that you mention flows from the idea that, if one is too “impure” for heaven but not bad enough for hell, there must be a state or place where the purgation occurs. Hence the term “purgatory” or “the place of purgation”.

The other aspect of this is one of time. Some (particularly some protestants) feel that such purgation is fairly instantanious and so there is no “place” needed for the purgation. Rather it is simply part of ones judgement before God. Others see it as something requiring much time.
But time is something that God is not bound by so we really don’t know how earthly time factors into the whole issue.

To me the essential concept, and the one we should focus on, is the idea of the action of purgation rather than on whether it exists as a specific place or not…For even allowing for purgatory as a place, it is a transatory one just like earth. Our final destinations remain either heaven or hell.

Peace
James

I have come to the conclusion that confession is where that place is here on earth. Because if you really and truly think about it you are confessing directly to God through the Power of the HS given to that Priest to forgive these sins on this earth. IS Confession not cleaning oneself from our sins. asking for forgiveness and receiving it through Absolution by the power of the HS!

 

[JRKH]

I have come to the conclusion that confession is where that place is here on earth. Because if you really and truly think about it you are confessing directly to God through the Power of the HS given to that Priest to forgive these sins on this earth. IS Confession not cleaning oneself from our sins. asking for forgiveness and receiving it through Absolution by the power of the HS!

I think that you are at least partially right here.
There is a cleansing that is connected with confession, and a very powerful one at that.
But I don’t think that it is necessarily complete.
You raise the point in an earlier post about, not just getting rid of the sin, but getting rid of the affection or attachment to sin. While confession is an important tool and channel for grace in this effort, we must act singularly and purposefully and privately to erradicate such affections in ourselves.

Don’t think that I am discounting confession in any way - for I am not. I think you bring in a very important facet here. I just wish to say that, in our march toward sanctification, toward that Perfection to which we are called, Confession can only do so much.
While a good confession undoubtedly will reduce the time required for purgation, it will likely not entirely eliminate the need - at least not for me, I’m sure…

Peace
James

 

[rinnie]

I think that you are at least partially right here.
There is a cleansing that is connected with confession, and a very powerful one at that.
But I don’t think that it is necessarily complete.
You raise the point in an earlier post about, not just getting rid of the sin, but getting rid of the affection or attachment to sin. While confession is an important tool and channel for grace in this effort, we must act singularly and purposefully and privately to erradicate such affections in ourselves.

Don’t think that I am discounting confession in any way - for I am not. I think you bring in a very important facet here. I just wish to say that, in our march toward sanctification, toward that Perfection to which we are called, Confession can only do so much.
While a good confession undoubtedly will reduce the time required for purgation, it will likely not entirely eliminate the need - at least not for me, I’m sure…

Peace
James

Actually if you think about it we are really on the same page. Because while Confession is simply truly being sorry for our sin, and then being forgiven for our sin we leave with a clean slate as they say.

But where I believe the purgatory time actually begins is the time we have to stay on the straight and narrow and not commit the sins again.

That is why I think it is the true cleansing time because we are actually in a great deal of suffering. It is a cleansing of our soul. Kind of like a detox of the body. The hardest time for the alcoholic is not the detox time, sure its hard, but it the time you have to fight and remain staying sober. Really alot harder then the beginning of treatment. That is what I think purgatory is, the continuing to live life w/o that sin.

When you have finally got rid of that need to sin, you did indeed come out of the purgitation state and are actually free from the sin. The want is gone for good. For many this can take a life time.

I used to think purgatory was like I said after this world, I am seeing it really is in this world.

 

[JRKH]

Actually if you think about it we are really on the same page. Because while Confession is simply truly being sorry for our sin, and then being forgiven for our sin we leave with a clean slate as they say.

No doubt, you and I are expressing only slightly different hues of the same pallette.
In short we are in pretty much total agreement.

But where I believe the purgatory time actually begins is the time we have to stay on the straight and narrow and not commit the sins again.

That is why I think it is the true cleansing time because we are actually in a great deal of suffering. It is a cleansing of our soul. Kind of like a detox of the body. The hardest time for the alcoholic is not the detox time, sure its hard, but it the time you have to fight and remain staying sober. Really alot harder then the beginning of treatment. That is what I think purgatory is, the continuing to live life w/o that sin.

When you have finally got rid of that need to sin, you did indeed come out of the purgitation state and are actually free from the sin. The want is gone for good. For many this can take a life time.

I really like you analogy here…

I used to think purgatory was like I said after this world, I am seeing it really is in this world.

Well - obviously it is in both for if we are unable, eve by our best our best efforts here, to be completely purged before physical death, the job will be completed after death.

Peace
James

 

[coolsonh]

Galatians 2 Anyone?

15We, who are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles,16
(yet) who know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. 17
But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves are found to be sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? Of course not! 18 But if I am building up again those things that I tore down, then I show myself to be a transgressor. 19 For through the law I died to the law, that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ; 20 yet I live, no longer I, but Christ lives in me; insofar as I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God who has loved me and given himself up for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.

 

[ConsciousCoward]

I believe the Salvation question is answered by Paul quite well in Romans 10.

**1Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

5For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13*for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

Verse 9 is Paul’s explicit answer to what is necessary for salvation. At least, that’s how it seems.

 

[JRKH]

I believe the Salvation question is answered by Paul quite well in Romans 10.
**1Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

5For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13*for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”
Verse 9 is Paul’s explicit answer to what is necessary for salvation. At least, that’s how it seems.

You speak rightly here that Paul is putting forth an essential. However there are other verses and passages that must cause us to consider just what Paul is expressing here. For instance - in Verse 10 above, Paul says that believing in the heart results in rightiousness, but then what is “rightiousness”…In other words what constitutes “right belief”.
It is wrtten that, “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” (Mt 7:21) So much for those who “confess with their mouth” being automatically saved.
It is also written that, “You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe–and tremble!” (James 2:19) So “belief” of itself does not constitute saving faith.
Again it is written that, “So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead”. (James 2:17) - The measure and verification of saving faith is seen through action - works.
And again, “‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Mt 25:31-46) In this passage Jesus speaks clearly and strongly that we will be judged, not soley on “belief” but on our actions.

So - While you are correct in saying that we must be able to truly believe and confess, not every form of belief is sufficient, nor is the mere concept of belief sufficient. As pointed out in Holy Scripture, and from the mouth of Christ Himself, a saving faith/belief is one that has works attached to it. One without the other is not the will of God. One without the other is dead.

Peace
James

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

No doubt, you and I are expressing only slightly different hues of the same pallette.
In short we are in pretty much total agreement.

I really like you analogy here…

[SIGN]Well - obviously it is in both for if we are unable, eve by our best our best efforts here, to be completely purged before physical death, the job will be completed after death[/SIGN].

Peace
James

See now this is what I always thought also James.

But I didn’t have alot of time to speak with Father about it, but to make it short and sweet I asked him if there was still a Purgatory.

I ALWAYS believed in it. Father said that Purgatory was indeed a teaching of the O.T. But he said that when Jesus died on the cross and took away our sins its at the hour of our death heaven or hell now. Thats it.

He told me that now we have the power here on earth to be purged from our sins by the Sacraments. Think about that, what he said he true.

He said in the O.T. there were no Sacraments. But he said Jesus made it possible now for us to be cleansed from our sins by confession.

He said it is complicated, and we will have to go into it later (he was busy) but he said that purgatory is no longer a teaching.

I asked why then do we pray for the souls in Purgatory, he said remember purgatory is not a place, it never was, it is a state. He was like do you understand that. I was like yes Pa. Florida etc (just kidding.)

I said yes a state as in a place in your mind. So when we pray for the souls in purgatory I believe it still works, but its a state of Sin and it exists here and now.

Because think about what he said, we have Priests who have the power to forgive sins here, we didn’t in the O.T. Moses couldn’t Abraham couldn’t. See what I mean?

Now when we die we have Last rites (Correct) See what I am saying We have confession and last rites which is Absolution! I am still working on this James.

But I thought I really understood what it was, now I see I have alot of my own faith to learn.

 

[guanophore]

I believe the Salvation question is answered by Paul quite well in Romans 10.

You are right, of course, since Paul is a Catholic, writing to Catholics about the Catholic faith. However, it is a mistake to suppose that this is all Paul has to say about salvation.

Verse 9 is Paul’s explicit answer to what is necessary for salvation. At least, that’s how it seems.

It seems this way because you are in a faith tradition that is separated from the Apostolic Tradition for 500+ years. During that time, some of the Apostolic faith has been severed from the deposit you have received.

It is a grave mistake to form the doctrines of the faith by attempting to extrapolate them from single verses like this. Although this is an essential element of salvation, it must be taken together with other verses that speak about salvation, and with the Teaching of theApostles about what those verse mean.

Heb 12:14-17

Pursue peace with everyone, and the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springs up and causes trouble, and through it many become defiled. 16 See to it that no one becomes like Esau, an immoral and godless person, who sold his birthright for a single meal. 17 You know that later, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, even though he sought the blessing with tears.

We also need to pursue peace and holiness (working out our salvation), not fail to obtain the grace of God, avoid selling our birthright. If it were not possible to lose one’s birthright, then the Apostles would not have taught this.

 

[guanophore]

I ALWAYS believed in it. Father said that Purgatory was indeed a teaching of the O.T. But he said that when Jesus died on the cross and took away our sins its at the hour of our death heaven or hell now. Thats it.

IT is true that the Catholic Church inherited the concept of the place of the righteous dead from the Jews, as evidenced in the OT. It is also true that we can be cleansed of our sins by the shed blood of Chrsit on the cross. It is also true that there are two eternal destinies at the end of this life - heaven or hell.

He told me that now we have the power here on earth to be purged from our sins by the Sacraments. Think about that, what he said he true.

Indeed, all purging happens by grace, through faith, and we access this faith through the sacraments.

He said in the O.T. there were no Sacraments. But he said Jesus made it possible now for us to be cleansed from our sins by confession.

He said it is complicated, and we will have to go into it later (he was busy) but he said that purgatory is no longer a teaching.

I hope you misunderstood Father, or he mispoke himself, as this is wrong. He may no longer teach Purgatory, but the Catholic Church does.

I asked why then do we pray for the souls in Purgatory, he said remember purgatory is not a place, it never was, it is a state. He was like do you understand that. I was like yes Pa. Florida etc (just kidding.)

I said yes a state as in a place in your mind. So when we pray for the souls in purgatory I believe it still works, but its a state of Sin and it exists here and now.

No, purgatory is for those whose sins are already forgiven, and are heaven bound.

Because think about what he said, we have Priests who have the power to forgive sins here, we didn’t in the O.T. Moses couldn’t Abraham couldn’t. See what I mean?

A distinction needs to be made between the forgiveness of sins, and the temporal punishments due to sin. For example, Jesus forgave the thief on the cross who died next to him, but still allowed him to suffer the temporal consequence of his sins. He hung on the cross until nightfall, when they broke his legs to hasten his death. Jesus could have taken the soul of the thief when He died, but He did not.

Now when we die we have Last rites (Correct) See what I am saying We have confession and last rites which is Absolution! I am still working on this James.

Being absolved (forgiven the eternal consequence of our sins) does not necessarilyl set aside the temporal consequences. For example, a person may be forgiven for murder, but will still have to do prison time.

But I thought I really understood what it was, now I see I have alot of my own faith to learn.

So does your Father, it seems!

 

[JRKH]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

See now this is what I always thought also James.

But I didn’t have alot of time to speak with Father about it, but to make it short and sweet I asked him if there was still a Purgatory.

I ALWAYS believed in it. Father said that Purgatory was indeed a teaching of the O.T. But he said that when Jesus died on the cross and took away our sins its at the hour of our death heaven or hell now. Thats it.

He told me that now we have the power here on earth to be purged from our sins by the Sacraments. Think about that, what he said he true.

He said in the O.T. there were no Sacraments. But he said Jesus made it possible now for us to be cleansed from our sins by confession.

He said it is complicated, and we will have to go into it later (he was busy) but he said that purgatory is no longer a teaching.

I asked why then do we pray for the souls in Purgatory, he said remember purgatory is not a place, it never was, it is a state. He was like do you understand that. I was like yes Pa. Florida etc (just kidding.)

I said yes a state as in a place in your mind. So when we pray for the souls in purgatory I believe it still works, but its a state of Sin and it exists here and now.

Because think about what he said, we have Priests who have the power to forgive sins here, we didn’t in the O.T. Moses couldn’t Abraham couldn’t. See what I mean?

Now when we die we have Last rites (Correct) See what I am saying We have confession and last rites which is Absolution! I am still working on this James.

But I thought I really understood what it was, now I see I have alot of my own faith to learn.

Yes, I think you will indeed need to go into this more deeply with father…For if, as he says, the Church no longer teaches “Purgatory” then why is the word used four time in the Catechism including this reference:
1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.

See HERE for a search result showing the four references to Purgatory.

Peace
James