Salvation - OT vs NT

[fhansen]

From Heb 8, quoting and commenting on Jer 31:

For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.

8 But God found fault with the people and said: "The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

9 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord."

The truth, that we’re all to learn from this, is that we, humankind including Gentiles IOW, cannot be faithful under a covenant that does not first of all effect union with God in us. We need grace, we need Him to just be who we were created to be, let alone anything higher yet. The OC was a test, to see if man can be obedient in his “normal” condition, as born- or does he still need more? To be born again?

Ultimately man must be divinized in order to remain true to God, aligned with His will. And this is a process, a work of His, that we must also participate in.

 

[fhansen]

Communion is the fulfillment of Manna…

Yes, communion is the sacramental partaking of and maintaining union with God. There’s no need for more than that, just for a deeper and deeper experience of it which we work out as we live and abide in this relationship throughout the week, throughout our lives. As I understand…

 

[George720]

So does the Latin Church see Communion as Theosis?
And hence not possible in the Old Testament?
And Theosis itself as a gradualized process of Sanctification?
Or are these your personal perspectives?

geo

 

[fhansen]

Like I said, theosis or deification is not a hot topic in the church, and hasn’t been in the past as far as I know. When I speak of communion I mean the intimate union of man with God , something new and different with the NC, something God had been leading man to since the Fall. It’s my opinion that deification really begins at baptism, when we first enter the kingdom and God justifies us. This first justice given according to the RCC is real justice consisting of faith, hope, and love. God wishes to continue in that vein, with further justification or sanctification, as He transforms us into His image. The initial justification is simply the beginning of the deification process as I see it, not that it particularly matters. But this teaching relates:

1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the “inner man,” justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:

Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.

The following is a general statement from the Catechism on communion with God:

45 Man is made to live in communion with God in whom he finds happiness: When I am completely united to you, there will be no more sorrow or trials; entirely full of you, my life will be complete (St. Augustine, Conf. 10, 28, 39: PL 32, 795}.

And the following are included in teachings on the definition of the Eucharist:

1331 Holy Communion , because by this sacrament we unite ourselves to Christ, who makes us sharers in his Body and Blood to form a single body.

1391 Holy Communion augments our union with Christ. The principal fruit of receiving the Eucharist in Holy Communion is an intimate union with Christ Jesus. Indeed, the Lord said: "He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him."226 Life in Christ has its foundation in the Eucharistic banquet: "As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me."227

On the feasts of the Lord, when the faithful receive the Body of the Son, they proclaim to one another the Good News that the first fruits of life have been given, as when the angel said to Mary Magdalene, “Christ is risen!” Now too are life and resurrection conferred on whoever receives Christ.228

The Eucharist doesn’t initiate our union with Christ but rather nurtures, supports, and sustains it.

 

[George720]

theosis or deification is not a hot topic in the church, and hasn’t been in the past as far as I know. When I speak of communion I mean the intimate union of man with God , something new and different with the NC, something God had been leading man to since the Fall. It’s my opinion that deification really begins at baptism, when we first enter the kingdom and God justifies us. This first justice given according to the RCC is real justice consisting of faith, hope, and love. God wishes to continue in that vein, with further justification or sanctification, as He transforms us into His image. The initial justification is simply the beginning of the deification process as I see it, not that it particularly matters.

Thank-you - I had to read it a couple of times, and by that process I think I came to understand a little better what you are up against when you try to read my posts… The universe of discourse, both in understanding and word usage, is simply unaccustomed - The first read made no sense whatsoever… By read three, I got it - At least some…

Theosis in the Latin understanding is the gradual transformation of fallen Adam [that be you and me and that other guy over there in the shadows] into into a son of God… This is why it is no big deal to Rome… It comes slowly by education and God’s Grace working through Sacraments, as we become more and more transformed… It is ever ongoing and a common part of Christian Life in Christ, yes?

That is not the experience of the EOC…

In the EOC it is a threshold event that is prepared for throughout discipleship in the Church… Beginning with purification of the heart in repentance from sin, which is ongoing to the end in perseverance and vigil… Which leads to the Illumination of the Nous, which occurs in and corresponds to Baptism, which initiates repentant Adam into the Body of Christ in the purity of having all one’s sins washed away so that one can be united at one’s core with God… Which then leads, when God decides to do so, to Theosis, which is the saturation of the person with and in the Holy Spirit… It is the entry point of Sainthood…

It is not a condition of existence for the one who has it, but an event that comes and then departs… It can come for one second, or with Moses, for 40 days and nights… It commonly [IF common can be even used in this context] lasts several hours, and Gifts are given, and one is finally given the Power to DO God’s Will… It is the event that enters a person into the Company of the Saints… It is the Pentecost of the Soul…

…continued…

 

[George720]

And it only does this when the person has been prepared through repentance, then through Divine illumination of the mind, then by the descent of the Holy Spirit in Power… It is the third and final stage of discipleship… Corresponding, btw, to the three degrees of the priesthood - eg Deacon, Priest, and Bishop… In common language, the Deacon is at the stage of repentance, the Priest that of Illumination, and the Bishop a Divine personage… All of which, in the course of demonic politicalization of the Church, can take bad turns…

I think this is why we are not connecting in this discussion - The same term means two entirely different things… Slow transformation for you as one becomes more and more educated in the Faith, vs Blinding Initiation into the deepest Holy Mysteries of God in Power for the EOC…

So I am as always in your debt…

Thanks again…

geo

 

[fhansen]

I don’t think so. It has nothing to do with education per se. Of course we need to hear God’s word, to be catechized- and the other education I recently spoke of has to with how God uses this world, the direct visceral experiences of life, to draw and mold the will of Adam. But in Catholicism we’re justified all at once at Baptism which washes, cleanses, puts sin to death as it kills the old man and gives life to the new, with real change, real righteousness, resulting. From there we’re to continue to walk in this new state, and grow in it, all with the help of grace as we abide in Christ and He in us. This walk means obedience of God’s will including reception of the sacraments, works of mercy, prayer, etc. Any theosis or divinization that takes place is all by the will of God, of course, but it presumably begins at Baptism, probably not fully consummated until the next life. We don’t have a “when” for it. Either way it’s the ultimate desire of God for all men.

We do not emphasize that transformation so much, however, and you’ve got me wondering how commonplace it is for the EO now. Is this more conceptual, idealistic, or is this how most experience things? Or mainly reserved for those we sometimes formally revere as saints? Again, the experiences of Moses or Paul or more modern believers are looked at more along the lines of mystical experiences rather than necessarily directly related to deification, although they profoundly mark a human being and can’t help but propel him in that direction I’m certain, as do many of the ways in which God many choose to grace us.

 

[George720]

We do not emphasize that transformation so much, however, and

Well, it is transformation by Initiation by God… It has three phases: The first is God’s Call to Repentance… The second is God’s Baptism into Christ… The third is Divinization by God… The OT path of Salvation did not have the second phase…

So that while they were filled with God’s Grace, they were not hypostatically sealed with the Holy Spirit… Remember that hypostasis = person… The irreducibly most basic feature of what/who a human being is… For God, it is the great I AM…

you’ve got me wondering how commonplace it is for the EO now. Is this more conceptual, idealistic, or is this how most experience things? Or mainly reserved for those we sometimes formally revere as saints? Again, the experiences of Moses or Paul or more modern believers are looked at more along the lines of mystical experiences rather than necessarily directly related to deification, although they profoundly mark a human being and can’t help but propel him in that direction I’m certain, as do many of the ways in which God many choose to grace us.

For us it is Christianity 101 -
1: Repentance
2: Baptism
3: Divinization

It is the path of Sainthood… I strongly suspect Padre Pio of knowing it… Indeed, it is Life Eternal, knowing the One True God and His Son, Jesus Christ… Paul spoke of it: “I knew a man…” But he preached the Cross, not Theosis - Because it cannot be taught, but the Cross can be taught, and he rejoiced in his infirmities… Knowing they were God’s Grace for his Salvation…

We have current authors and fairly recent Saints who wrote of it - The current one who makes it really clear is Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos, in the Stream of Father John Romanides of blessed memory… It is the focus of Orthodox Monasticism, which lives an Apostolic life of denial of self and turning to God in prayer and fasting for a lifetime… And especially on the Holy Mountain of Mt. Athos… Elder Aimillianos is another one who wrote what it looked like when it happened to him… It is behind everything we do… It is God ever before us… It is why we do Pilgrimages to Monasteries for encounters with Fathers who have what we do not yet have… These Saints are just now beginning to emerge home grown from America… I know one young one who was a Southern California Surfer… There are others…

So no, it is not just an idea assented to, some conceptual idealistic fantasy, but the Life of the Church, which few experience, but all recognize… Moses is a giant of the Spirit among men and walked glowing in God… He lit up the darkness, so shining was his face…

Enough!

geo

 

[fhansen]

So no, it is not just an idea assented to, some conceptual idealistic fantasy, but the Life of the Church, which few experience, but all recognize… Moses is a giant of the Spirit among men and walked glowing in God… He lit up the darkness, so shining was his face…

I suggested nothing about it being a fantasy George. Seeking sainthood in a variety of ways is most certainly a Catholic pastime-but more for a few than for the many in practice. And that’s what I was asking you. If theosis is so well defined and considered to be the normal desire for a believer, do many achieve it, or is it more of an ideal for the masses while only a few achieve it in this life as far as is known? Pretty simple question which it appears you answered.

Again, the difference between the old and new covenants is seen as a matter of Christ or God the Trinity living within and through us-the life of grace-rather than me attempting godliness/righteousness strictly on my own, as if I can satisfy His requirements by myself, pleasing Him while still effectively apart from Him. Man’s main obligation is to come to love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and our neighbor as ourselves-impossible without this union/communion/partnership. And this, as well, is practiced better by some than by all as it appears, while hopefully we’re all better than we’d otherwise be without our faith.

Some of this is just differences in word usage IMO but I’m glad to understand the EO position better- I think it’s helpful in understanding God’s will for man, maybe because it clarifies things quite distinctly. I’ll be inquiring more into it anyway.

 

[George720]

If theosis is so well defined and considered to be the normal desire for a believer,
do many achieve it, or is it more of an ideal for the masses
while only a few achieve it in this life as far as is known?

None achieve it…

Some attain it…

It is the started, obstructed and narrow path…

Few are they who find it…

Those who do become pillars of the Faith…

It is the condition that gave Revelation to John…

And Genesis to Moses…

Relative to the OT Saints, we have an abundance of them after Christ…

But an abundance is still but a few…

One in a thousand would be an avalanche!

Far, far less than that…

Have you ever seen a person who glows with the Holy Spirit…?

Where night becomes as day around him or her…?

This is original Apostolic Christianity…

It is discipled in the Church…

Repentance unto Baptism…

Enhanced repentance unto Deification…

It is highly ascetic…

It is not mere encounter with God…

It is the Marriage Bed of the Lamb…

Actual, ontological, union with God…

Experience of Life Eternal…

Glad and encouraged to see your interest…

geo

 

[fhansen]

Ok, so bear with me. Does step 2, Baptism, also involve actual, ontological, union with God? That is the basis of salvation, correct?

 

[George720]

Ok, so bear with me. Does step 2, Baptism, also involve actual, ontological, union with God? That is the basis of salvation, correct?

Yes - It is this real union of God and our hypostasis, when we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, indeed when we are Christed - eg Chrismated with the Holy Chrism, following our rebirth in purity from the Waters of Regeneration, that itself constitutes the New Creation we have become… It is Salvation, and the basis for the Salvation to come, and without it, there are very few who manage to find union with God in Theosis/Divinization… The likes of Moses do not grow on trees, and Paul carefully noted that very very few could overcome sin through obedience to the Law, and that most of the zealots - eg Pharisees - carried the leaven of hypocrisy…

And this is why so few Protestants have done so, for they too keep getting mired in their persistent sins… They even justify their sinning by saying Paul kept on sinning a la Rom 9… And our sins ARE persistent - They are SO persistent… That without Apostolic Baptism, we almost cannot overcome them, and even with it, we BARELY are able to overcome sin…

And those overcoming sin are greatly Blessed of God…

Baptism regains the Garden, you see, while Chrismation enters us into Christ within us… ev - The Anointing of the Chrism of the Christ makes Christians Christed from within… Rather than mere receptors of an infusion of the Holy Spirit, which the OT Saints all received… It is not mere Grace, you see, but God Himself being united with us hypostatically in the arche of our being as persons…

This is what was lost in the West…

Even though God sent the likes of Padre Pio and others…

And the Way to get there, the narrow and obstructed way, of askesis in the overcoming of sins… Not self punishment, but the overcoming of self in the face of afflictions, in the Love of God and neighbor…

It is the whole point of our lives on earth in this fallen world…

It is a big deal…

We call those just Baptized into Christ the Newly Illumined…

And remember, the Giants - eg the Goliaths - were only found INSIDE the Promised Land… Hence “enhanced” repentance as the Way narrows and becomes ever more obstructed and afflicted… And Faith is the only human cognitive tool capable of navigating the path… John Climacus of the Ladder in the icon shows many being pulled from it into the maw of the beast…

geo

 

[fhansen]

I agree that it’s a big deal-except that this real union is taught in the west. How well taught is another story but officially man is made just by communion with God, at Baptism. This communion, itself, is the essence of man’s justice, and the actual righteousness or justice that it imparts is part and parcel of that union, a mark of it. Then man is further renewed or sanctified as he cooperates with God’s grace, to the extent that he does so at least, to the extent that he pursues it.

Protestants often virtually replace the need for authentic righteousness with faith, as if that were almost a license to sin, or the equivalent of righteousness in the more extreme theologies. Either way the Sola Fide doctrine is quite lacking and unsound.

In any case it sounds as if the EO explain and challenge their people to a very lofty goal, as it should. We should never place saints on so high a pedestal that the same state seems unattainable to any of the rest of us, if we truly wish to pursue it.

 

[George720]

I agree that it’s a big deal-

For us, the above formulaic is squiggly… We simply say that God is now imparted into the Essence of Man after Baptism, which imparts to us our being made Right with God as His New Creation… This is the “mechanics” as it were, of Adoption by God - And it is anything but mechanics!

It is an interesting puzzle to solve, this dialogue, yes?

geo

 

[George720]

In any case it sounds as if the EO explain and challenge their people to a very lofty goal, as it should. We should never place saints on so high a pedestal that the same state seems unattainable to any of the rest of us, if we truly wish to pursue it.

Actually, the teachings are embraced only by those who pursue them, but we can meet our Saints, receive their blessing, and be instructed by them, should we desire to do so… The rest live ordinary lives, do not know the faith well enough to defend it, and can be called sometimes nominal, or secular, Orthodox - They tend to live good and decent lives raising families and going to Church on Sundays - All of which should sound familiar to you!

But for those called to do so, the Way of Ascent is immediately given, and it is a ‘very lofty goal’, and we can and do pursue it, and some make it to finding themselves Glorified by God… I remember the account by Elder Aimilianos of his ‘event’… He was Abbot, as I recall, on the Holy Mountain, and he said he had been struggling for some years in repentance there, and WAS NOT DOING ALL THAT WELL EITHER (he tossed in as an aside!), when he noticed that he could see in the night as if it were day… etc etc… I feel certain that Padre Pio had a parallel event, and certainly Thomas Aquinas did, and stopped writing and teaching - His Summa was NOT completed because of that vision… “All that I have written is straw…” were his words to his Abbot… THAT is theosis, you see… And you never know where or when it will happen, or even IF… But the people it does impact get pretty lit up… Some become schema-monks… Others become Apostles, and we remember what Paul wrote of these - The scunge of the world [off-scouring is the term normally translated] etc… Not pretty to look at… Yet lit up and charismatic… And good to the bone!

And when you meet one, you may find yourself saying: “I want to be just like that guy!” For they are as ‘normal’ as ‘normal’ is capable of being ‘normal’… And you may even find yourself asking: “Why would I even think I might want to be anything other??” And if you do, may the afflictions of the world never deter you…

Happy 4th of July!

geo

 

[fhansen]

Everything is taught in the West… But as we have discovered, the West understands Theosis as the gradual perfecting of the Christian across a lifetime, whereas the East understands it as the momentous event of initiation into Sainthood - The Glorification of God to the Justified who were Called on earth…

Yes, I believe there’s a difference here. I don’t see any one-time event, and I don’t read the saints as attesting to this either. IDK

Yes - Where “Just” translates the “Dik-” root, and means RIGHT - So that in Baptism we are made RIGHT with God by entry INTO God and God being sealed WITHIN us… Another Mystery (Sacrament) of the Faith… The very term “just”, therefore, meaning even-handed and un-biased, is a little misleading - Again, you see, we use terms differently, because we are referring to the same things with words that mean different things to each of us…

Throughout this thread I used the term “just” as basically synonymous with “right” or “righteous”, “justice” with “righteousness”. In the west, justification-to be made right- became a focal point due to the Reformation. The Council of Trent in session 6 addressed the matter brilliantly IMO. And this might relate somewhat to the issue of scholasticism/intellectualism as well. All creeds and professions and catechisms and concilliar decrees and theological treatises, etc are ways in which we strive to rationally categorize and explain the faith. They are necessary foundations, while pointing to something bigger, Something that we may or may not miss in the process. When some in the east complain that the west is hyper-rational, etc, I tend to think that the west has simply utilized the natural and God-given human faculty of reason to simply philosophize more, perhaps (even if the Greeks virtually started it all ). And that the Church has benefited from this-recognizing that even straw can have some real value.

For us, the above formulaic is squiggly… We simply say that God is now imparted into the Essence of Man after Baptism, which imparts to us our being made Right with God as His New Creation… This is the “mechanics” as it were, of Adoption by God - And it is anything but mechanics!

For myself it sounds about the same. God not only imparts justice; He is our justice. If man is ever going to possess any real justice or righteousness he must enter communion with God first of all. That’s the difference between the old and new covenants.

It is an interesting puzzle to solve, this dialogue, yes?

Yes, and I’ve tried to draw parallels-and there are more of them than not IMO.

 

[fhansen]

Actually, the teachings are embraced only by those who pursue them, but we can meet our Saints, receive their blessing, and be instructed by them, should we desire to do so… The rest live ordinary lives, do not know the faith well enough to defend it, and can be called sometimes nominal, or secular, Orthodox - They tend to live good and decent lives raising families and going to Church on Sundays - All of which should sound familiar to you!

Yep

But for those called to do so, the Way of Ascent is immediately given, and it is a ‘very lofty goal’, and we can and do pursue it, and some make it to finding themselves Glorified by God… I remember the account by Elder Aimilianos of his ‘event’… He was Abbot, as I recall, on the Holy Mountain, and he said he had been struggling for some years in repentance there, and WAS NOT DOING ALL THAT WELL EITHER (he tossed in as an aside!), when he noticed that he could see in the night as if it were day… etc etc… I feel certain that Padre Pio had a parallel event, and certainly Thomas Aquinas did, and stopped writing and teaching - His Summa was NOT completed because of that vision… “All that I have written is straw…” were his words to his Abbot… THAT is theosis, you see… And you never know where or when it will happen, or even IF… But the people it does impact get pretty lit up… Some become schema-monks… Others become Apostles, and we remember what Paul wrote of these - The scunge of the world [off-scouring is the term normally translated] etc… Not pretty to look at… Yet lit up and charismatic… And good to the bone!

Hmm. I guess we’d see those experiences as “mystical”, for sure, and contributing to theosis while not constituting the essence of it. Anyway, most of this post is pretty much consistent with western thought otherwise and really just affirms to me that the differences between east and west really aren’t so big-while we can yet probably benefit from each other’s wisdom.

Happy 4th to you and yours as well geo!

fred

 

[George720]

Happy 4th to you and yours as well geo!
fred

Thank-you…

Now I can pray for Servant of God Fred Hansen…

Here is a Gift for you on Elder Aimillianos (recently reposed…)

Elder Aimillianos was a living Saint, and you can see his care for and impact on his disciple in the person of this Arch-Bishop, and the relationship of Saints to their charges in the Love of God… It is an amazing thing to see…

(Click on the ‘Watch this video on You Tube’ underlined option.)

geo

 

[fhansen]

Thank you. It seems to me now that there’s been a revival of sorts of mysticism in the east?, and of seeking after the immediate knowledge of God, even if they’ve had their own periods of aridity in that area. At least the monastic tradition is and has been healthier there. And I do understand that the approach is more “human” perhaps, as well as spiritual, and less intellectual. But both east and west have their mystical legacies of course and God can move in His people without their even seeking such experiences. Anyway, I watched about four videos including the first you linked to. And while all those men were very humble and real, I especially appreciated the first i watched, Fr Stephen speaking about his own journey. More later.

 

[George720]

Thank you.

Back at ya!

It seems to me now that there’s been a revival of sorts of mysticism in the east?,

I am glad you are liking the folks you are meeting…
60 Minutes did a two part article on Mt Athos…
Where the cynical investigative television reporter heading the story was recorded on camera in the article saying the following words - “The very stones here exude holiness…” I about fell out of my chair… He retired soon after that segment… Might have converted… They had been trying for three years to go there but could not get permission… Finally got it…

Then there is “The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church”…

Enough already!

geo