Salvation - OT vs NT

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George720 said:
Which is confirmed in the non-askesis of much of Protestant praxis, due to the absence of Apostolic Baptism into Christ, and the consequent inability to actually succeed all that much in their struggles with sin… With many of them trying to theologically justify their failures in overcoming sin through some of Paul’s writings…
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They definitely lack the Eucharist as well as correct theology on justification-knowledge is an essential component here. Otherwise humans tend to fall back to non-askesis and lack of discipline quite easily, which, yes, the theology of many ironically supports.
 
Wow, now I feel like I should’ve deleted that last one too! Maybe I’ll redeem myself by posting and deleting more. That way I can at least minimize the risk of removing all doubt about my ignorance.
 
Vico said:
There is also baptism of desire and baptism of blood, so water baptism is not the only way. Also, there were justified persons before Jesus descended into hades.
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Both desire and blood baptize by Ekonomia, where Baptism in the Waters of Regeneration are not available… The Proto-Exemplar being the Wise Thief on the Cross… Mel Gibson got him wrong, btw, when he put him on Christ’s left hand…

Yet Hebrews tells us of many of the OT Faithful ones who had great desire and who suffered their way into a better resurrection, being sawn asunder in the blood of martyrdom for their faith in the Lord… And yet they did NOT attain the Promise…

At least not until Christ descended into Hades and brought them out…

It is Christ’s Blood that brought them forth…

He came for them…

The Ernest Shakleton of their souls…

geo
 
fhansen said:
I’ll try to keep a low profile from now on.
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What keeps my gums flapping is the practicality of Theology…

Theology is a practical pursuit…

Some here have written and said that it is but theoretical philosophical speculation…

Indeed, there is a whole section here on CAF in Theology called Philosophy…

For us it is immediate and vital and practical…

Hence the need for dogma in word and praxis…

geo
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Couldn’t agree more. Where Aquinas may not have been a mystic or ascetic by practice, he certainly ended up blest with both-the intellectual side that he’d pursued all along- and then the direct experience that he was still able to theologize about without actually experiencing it until later. Both have their roles here on earth even if the latter is what it’s all about at the end of the day.
 
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Now that is a Resurrection Icon I have never seen before…

Thank-you…

geo
 
So I was listening to Catholic Answers Radio today and an Orthodox caller asked about Theosis… The answer given was much the same as yours, for he said it is the gradual acquisition of holiness, the process of sanctification… So you are a good Catholic in your understanding!

Speaking of which, he said that the Eastern Orthodox Church is not the Catholic Church, but he did not get around to saying why, but that the Melkites are, and the other "Eastern Rite Churches in Communion with Rome… I think the Latin Communion regards only those in Communion with Rome as Catholics… But he did not make it clear why, so I am only guessing… We call ourselves, for instance, the Russian Orthodox Catholic Church, etc etc… And I remember reprimands here for Orthodox calling themselves Catholic, many years ago… That never got resolved then either…

He said that Rome uses the term Divinization rather than Theosis… And regards them as the same thing… But we do not… A divine visitation can result in Theosis, but does not always do so, but Theosis is always given through a personal encounter with God… And the result is determined mostly by the level of preparation of the one visited… Where preparation means repentance from sin…

Theosis is a state of being - Divinization is an ongoing process…

So that Theosis is not all that much in the Western vocabulary, apparently…

geo
 
You had mentioned that you are very familiar with Divine Visitation - But that you had not connected it to Theosis… And it is not always connected to Theosis, but this is due in large part to the state of being of the one being divinely visited…

The first stage of Christian life is Repentance, usually taken on as a result of one’s response to the Call of God… The encounter with God in the Call is the same as that in His Illumination, which is the same as that in His Glorification… The difference between them is not in God’s end of the suffusion of His Grace, but is instead found in the preparation of the person encountering God in that action… Repentance leads to Divine Illumination, and the enhanced repentance of the person Divinely Illumined leads to Theosis/Glorification… Theosis is the highest level of human Salvation attainable on this earth… It is not progressively attained BY one’s works of repentance, but IS attained THROUGH them… "…Of God the Gift…"

So that while the West acknowledges the phenomenon as visitation, they do not seem to see it in connection with the three Disciples on the Mount seeing Christ come in Power…

But we do…

geo
 
It is the deletion of a reply that counts, you dog!

Can’t just not reply!

Gotta say something…
Rethink it…
Delete it…

Aye, there’s the admirable virtue in action!

geo
 
I believe that divinization and theosis are the same as far as the west would be concerned. Divinization is to become “like God”, something only He can accomplish but also involving our consent and cooperation. It’s my personal opinion that this takes place gradually but what do I know? Hasn’t happened yet to me and as you say the west doesn’t have great amounts to say on the matter as far as I understand it.
 
fhansen said:
I believe that divinization and theosis are the same as far as the west would be concerned. Divinization is to become “like God”, something only He can accomplish but also involving our consent and cooperation.
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I think they are two words meaning the same in the east as well, but that the two “sames” differ pretty radically… In the east, we do not understand our co-operation to be a factor, and in the event, it is our state of being that determines the result, while in the event itself, there is no talking, no thought, no human anything… We become utter receivers, and if we somehow decide to add our two cents worth of co-operation, we will be acting detrimentally to our reception of the Grace God is imparting to us…

In fact we become as the Christmas Carol sings: “The world is silent stillness waits - To hear the Angels sing…” It is why we disciple silent prayer in stillness of heart… In preparation for this Holy Coming of the Lord into our souls… Our souls are a she, you know, and God is a He… And this is, at the third stage of Discipleship, the Marriage of the Lamb… And in order to enter, we need oil in our lamps…

geo
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George720 said:
I think they are two words meaning the same in the east as well, but that the two “sames” differ pretty radically… In the east, we do not understand our co-operation to be a factor, and in the event, it is our state of being that determines the result, while in the event itself, there is no talking, no thought, no human anything… We become utter receivers, and if we somehow decide to add our two cents worth of co-operation, we will be acting detrimentally to our reception of the Grace God is imparting to us…

In fact we become as the Christmas Carol sings: “The world is silent stillness waits - To hear the Angels sing…” It is why we disciple silent prayer in stillness of heart… In preparation for this Holy Coming of the Lord into our souls… Our souls are a she, you know, and God is a He… And this is, at the third stage of Discipleship, the Marriage of the Lamb… And in order to enter, we need oil in our lamps…

geo
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Sounds a lot like Carmelite spirituality.

When we speak of our cooperation we mean responding to God’s call to prayer.
 
I understand that we’re completely passive in the event; that is a constant in anyone’s description if the experience is authentic. The cooperation comes beforehand in how we live our lives: in our seeking God with our whole heart and obeying His will, in our faithfulness over time. Whether or not He grants an experience of His immediate Presence or anything else is totally at His discretion.
 
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fhansen said:
I understand that we’re completely passive in the event; that is a constant in anyone’s description if the experience is authentic. The cooperation comes beforehand in how we live our lives: in our seeking God with our whole heart and obeying His will, in our faithfulness over time. Whether or not He grants an experience of His immediate Presence or anything else is totally at His discretion.
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In Orthodoxy, we call that preparation, not co-operation - It is why John the Baptist was called the Forerunner of Christ. It is why he came calling as a lone voice in the wilderness crying: “Prepare ye the Way of the Lord…” “Make straight the pathway of our God…” etc… Quoting Elijah… Discipleship is preparation for this event, you see… That is why it is so central to the Eastern Fathers…

It is precisely because of the “total passivity” of the human person in this encounter, which you tagged as an essential feature of its authenticity, that we disciple hesychia and stillness, inner silence, quietness, being cut off from the senses and thoughts and feelings willfully… It is why the Desert Fathers went to the Desert… It is why monks go to Mt Athos… Or to other isolated places to be alone with God…

Indeed, it is the whole point of Christian Life in Christ - A life of suffering in renunciation of the world for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven… It is the Cross that Paul preaches in Christ, and Him Crucified… Where we follow our Lord not merely in thought and word, but in very deed and truth…

Prayer, fasting and alms are the three pillars of Christian Life… With them we can stand… Remove one and we fall… The 5 foolish virgins gave no alms, you see… They prayed and fasted, but did not love their neighbor as themselves…

And alms were the one thing Peter and John insisted on in their meeting with Paul, which he was, of course, eager to do… It was not all merely Grace and Joy

geo
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Ok, we cooperate by preparing. 😁 Either way I had lived my life that way when younger especially, with prayer, fasting, and giving, among other things, a big part of my life in an effort to grow nearer to God, and simply because I thought it was the right thing to do. I didn’t know any of these ground rules to attempting to gain some kind of direct experience-and wasn’t after it.

But where I did end up with such an ineffably profound experience, in a moment of time, was, interestingly, after an act of love, by expressing a willingness to give up my place in heaven for that of another. I won’t go into details other than to say that it was a sincere and desperate cry for help, filled with the faith I had developed over the years, having come to the realization that I was completely helpless to save a very lost soul who I loved deeply.

But the response I received by my being willing to give up everything was instead a most precious gift in return, a treasure that can never be taken away, to my complete amazement. I would understand what happened only later when I began to read the experiences of others. There’s a lot more to it and I wouldn’t bring it up at all except for the fact that we’re sort of discussing the “preparations” for these things-and I think it’s really cool that God doesn’t follow any rules, or dance to anyone else’s tune. This occurred in a cow barn BTW, followed up by a succession of other experiences, different in kind, all for a purpose, equally inaccessible but by grace.
 
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