Salvation - OT vs NT

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I ran into this from theCarmelite Monastery in Malta for you - Free…
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“The Ladder of Divine Ascent” - Carmelite Priory - Mdina​

www.carmelitepriory.org

"The Ladder of Divine Ascent"

For this year Lenten Season you can download for free 'The Ladder of Divine Ascent' by St. John Climacus, translated by Archimandrite Lazarus Moore (Harper & Brothers, 1959). John Climacus (c. 579-649) was abbot of the monastery of Catherine on Mount Sinai. His Ladder was the most widely used...
www.carmelitepriory.org www.carmelitepriory.org

]("The Ladder of Divine Ascent")

Feb 27, 2019 - For the Lenten Season you can download for free ‘The Ladder of Divine Ascent ’ by St. John Climacus, translated by Archimandrite Lazarus Moore (Harper & Brothers, 1959). John Climacus (c. 579-649) was abbot of the monastery of Catherine on Mount Sinai.

geo
 
It’s how I understand all of Scripture beginning in Genesis. If the will of man is not at all involved then the alternative is strict determinism and double predestination. Yuck
 
fhansen said:
It’s how I understand all of Scripture beginning in Genesis. If the will of man is not at all involved then the alternative is strict determinism and double predestination. Yuck
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Never in doubt!

I was asking of the meaning in Mat 11:12 of the words:
"…and the violent are taking it by force…"

Violent forcing is, after all, willful…

geo
 
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fhansen said:
If the will of man is not at all involved then
the alternative is strict determinism
and double predestination.
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It is indeed paradoxical to willfully be denying self-will, yes?

Yet Matthew’s words begin:

ei tis thelei…

IF ANY IS WILLING

Which the double D’ers must ignore…

geo
 
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George720 said:
Never in doubt!

I was asking of the meaning in Mat 11:12 of the words:
"…and the violent are taking it by force…"

Violent forcing is, after all, willful…
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I see-I think. Would you mind reviewing your understanding of that passage? Or pointing back to the earlier post on it.
 
The question is, how do YOU understand it? How are the violent seizing the Kingdom of Heaven by force, which from the time of John the Baptist until now is suffering violence…

What does that passage mean?

Let’s just start there…

What kind of force and violence?

And does it mean up to today’s now?

Or just the ‘then now’ of the Incarnation of Christ?

geo
 
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I think the will comes into play either way, no? Faith is a gift in both the old and new testaments but a gift the players could still always say “no” to.
 
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fhansen said:
Faith is a gift in both the old and new testaments but a gift the players could still always say “no” to.
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The term “Faith” is almost never generic - It almost always has a “the” in front of it… So that THE Faith is THAT Faith which Christ discipled to His Apostles who discipled it to all the nations… It is THE Faith of Christ, and not merely the fact that someone has the Christian Faith now because it was given to him in some spiritual event…

We are Called by God TO the Faith…
We are Discipled by the Church IN the Faith…
The Faith was given once for all to the Apostles…

geo
 
George720 said:
The centrality of human will is a given - It is not in question at all… In both Christian and pre-Christian eras…

Why keep it so shoved foreward as if it is in dispute?
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Sorry, I thought it might be. Just wanted to nail that one down… 😀
 
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Ok, faith is used to mean both a body of beliefs/'truths-and the act of trusting in and reliance on those truths. I have beliefs. And I believe. I’m not sure how that relates to the violent seizing the kingdom of God other than to say that man can never enter the kingdom by force. And faith is really the opposite of that approach because it’s to rely on God for our entrance.
 
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fhansen said:
Sorry, I thought it might be. Just wanted to nail that one down…
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Please consider it nailed down with iron spikes driven by 5 pound hammers!

We have no disagreement there whatsoever…

Not even a smoochly schmidge…

Did I mention “At all”??

🙂

geo
 
fhansen said:
Ok, faith is used to mean both a body of beliefs/'truths- and the act of trusting in and reliance on those truths. I have beliefs. And I believe. I’m not sure how that relates to the violent seizing the kingdom of God other than to say that man can never enter the kingdom by force. And faith is really the opposite of that approach because it’s to rely on God for our entrance.
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Well and good!
You are seeing the issue…

1: Man cannot force his way into the Kingdom of Heaven.
2: The violent are seizing the Kingdom of Heaven by force.

Both are true, and both seem mutually exclusive…
Hence the Mystery of the Faith in which we disciple…

Here it is again, Matthew 11:12, I think it was:

απο δε των ημερων ιωαννου του βαπτιστου εως αρτι
From the days of John the Baptist until this very moment

η βασιλεια των ουρανων βιαζεται
the Kingdom of the Heavens is being forced

και βιασται αρπαζουσιν αυτην
And forcers are seizing it

Very literal translation to show the thrust…
And these are Christ’s very words…

“Suffering violence” carries the meaning of “Permitting violence” which is not in the text… It may be true, but it is not in the text… So does this text refer to Christ on earth in His humanity as Son of man, Who IS the Kingdom of Heaven?

Or does it refer to those seeking the Kingdom of Heaven…

I have understood it as the latter, and I could be wrong…

Or does it mean something else entirely?

geo
 
Dunno. That passage always seemed cryptic to me. But since the time apparently covers only the short period between the Baptist and when Jesus spoke those words, your interpretation sounds reasonable. Jesus certainly stirred up passions and challenges within people. Such that they wanted to justify themselves before Him, and kill Him when that didn’t work, unwilling to give up their own positions, their own “righteousness”, as it were, presuming themselves to already be worthy of the Kingdom, apart from Him, the God Who now stood before them and presented a challenge to their “as is” states of justice, states of being.
 
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Well, if the Gospel of Jesus Christ is…
If the Good News is…
That the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand…
Here and now upon the earth…
As John and Jesus and Peter all proclaimed…
AND…
That there is something you can DO about it…
eg You can be repenting…
THEN, you see, we find Christ saying:
From the time of John the Baptist until now…
The Kingdom of Heaven is being forced…
And those who are forcers are seizing it…
Then are they connected?

Is the forcing that of repenting…?
Or is it Jesus suffering as a man…?

geo
 
Still dunno. Head’s spinning here now. Suffering violence. And Luke 16:16 doesn’t offer any relief either.
 
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fhansen said:
Still dunno. Head’s spinning here now. Suffering violence. And Luke 16:16 doesn’t offer any relief either.
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Well, if your head is spinning, I think we have a pretty good question…
βιαζεται
It is a 3rd person passive present indicative…
From βιαζω
Meaning:
1: To use force, to apply force
2: To force, to inflict violence on

So it clearly means “IT IS BEING FORCED” with the “IT” being the Kingdom of the Heavens, which is Christ Himself - eg It is NOT a created “place”… But is instead the uncreated Creator of ALL places, yes?

And being in the present tense, is means: “IS CONTINUALLY BEING FORCED”… For in the Greek, the present tense is ongoing…

So does Christ mean here that He Himself is being forced? Is He Himself, as incarnate man, being subjected to the necessities that fallen creation is imposing under the Rulership of Death in fallen creation won by the Serpent in the Garden and now defended by him here on earth? Because Christ IS on a rescue mission, no question… And it IS, as well, a very UNDERCOVER and COVERT mission… To rescue those seeking rescue by repentance from the evils of this world, yes? So Him meaning Himself is plausible, yes?

OR…

Does He mean that the Kingdom of the Heavens, He Himself, is being forced to grant entry into Himself of those who are repenting, for that is the Gospel of John the Baptist, and Christ and Peter: “Be ye repenting, for the Kingdom of the Heavens hath drawn nigh…”

It is here and now and can be entered… That was Jesus’ ministry… It can be entered because it is being forced? Is that the meaning?

geo
 
The second is the notion that gives me the worst headspins. I sort of hope that’s not the one.
 
Justin_Mary said:
Making any sense yet?
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Forgive me - I think I missed this post…

That cannot be true…

A Muslim non-believer cannot baptize anyone into Christ…

Surely the Catholic Church does not teach that he can?

And beyond that, a “valid” baptism is not merely a matter of correct words and correct actions, is it? Does not one have to have been properly Baptized into Christ in order to Baptize someone else into Christ?

The EOC fully recognizes the RCC Baptism, but not that of Protestants except by Ekonomia (in the event that the Protestant might be scandalized by not having his Baptism recognized)… This is, admittedly, a somewhat gray area, with differing opinions…

geo
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