Salvation - OT vs NT

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George720 said:
It is precisely because of the “total passivity” of the human person in this encounter, which you tagged as an essential feature of its authenticity, that we disciple hesychia and stillness, inner silence, quietness, being cut off from the senses and thoughts and feelings willfully… It is why the Desert Fathers went to the Desert… It is why monks go to Mt Athos… Or to other isolated places to be alone with God…
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Sounds like the Ascent of Mt Carmel.
 
fhansen said:
Ok, we cooperate by preparing. 😁 Either way I had lived my life that way when younger especially, with prayer, fasting, and giving, among other things, a big part of my life in an effort to grow nearer to God, and simply because I thought it was the right thing to do. I didn’t know any of these ground rules to attempting to gain some kind of direct experience-and wasn’t after it.

But where I did end up with such an ineffably profound experience, in a moment of time, was, interestingly, after an act of love, by expressing a willingness to give up my place in heaven for that of another. I won’t go into details other than to say that it was a sincere and desperate cry for help, filled with the faith I had developed over the years, having come to the realization that I was completely helpless to save a very lost soul who I loved deeply.

But the response I received by my being willing to give up everything was instead a most precious gift in return, a treasure that can never be taken away, to my complete amazement. I would understand what happened only later when I began to read the experiences of others. There’s a lot more to it and I wouldn’t bring it up at all except for the fact that we’re sort of discussing the “preparations” for these things-and I think it’s really cool that God doesn’t follow any rules, or dance to anyone else’s tune. This occurred in a cow barn BTW, followed up by a succession of other experiences, different in kind, all for a purpose, equally inaccessible but by grace.
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I kinda figured you were somewhere along there! 🙂

fwiw -

Mine was done as an atheist, and when it happened, I knew for a fact that He was NOT the God of Christians, with no room for any doubt whatsoever…

I am fully capable of getting things gloriously wrong!

We are a peculiar people…

geo
 
Justin_Mary said:
Sounds like the Ascent of Mt Carmel.
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I am unfamiliar with that Ascent…

We think of it as the Ladder of Divine Ascent via St. John Climacus…

Step one is renounce the world…

Still working on that one! 🙂

geo
 
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I was more or less Protestant theologically at the time- later to actually enter their fold for awhile. But none of it came from any kind of particular theology or mindset.

But I knew without doubt, because that knowledge was an intrinsic part of the experience, that anOther, an unimaginably superior Being, had orchestrated it.
 
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fhansen said:
I was more or less Protestant theologically at the time- later to actually enter their fold for awhile. But none of it came from any kind of particular theology or mindset.
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It just comes as God sees fit, and there is no doubt - Absolute knowledge on contact… Both a particular and a universal event… Kind of defies a lot of description… But afterwards, it does not take long to spot those who have had it… At least some of them…

And it is a total game changer… Everything prior is prior!

geo
 
George720 said:
Is Mt Carmel in Oregon?
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Mt Carmel is in the Holy Land. St John of the Cross is a Carmelite, of the Order of Brothers of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Their rule of life was written by St Albert, Patriarch of Jerusalem back in the 13th Century.

Ascent of Mt Carmel is a metaphor for what you are calling Theosis.
 
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It’s certainly about union with God. And that is said to be the same as divinization/ theosis, right? I’m not fully sure about how to understand some of these different concepts. Either way none can surpass St John of the Cross on this matter in the west as I see it, except St Teresa of Avila. But it’s been awhile since I’ve read him.
 
Crossover is always good. I’ve heard of him but now I’ll do some research.
 
fhansen said:
It’s certainly about union with God.
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Exactly so…

And the limiting factor is not God, but is instead our preparation…

I ‘saw’ a guy on line who had such an encounter - A group of us prayed for him to have it - None of us Christian at that time - And he was a sociopath doing bad things - And it happened, and he came on line, complaining that something had happened, and that he is not like this, that he is experiencing feelings of universal love, and he has no such feelings at all, and that this will all just go away if you give him some time, etc etc…

I laughed and laughed - Probably should have cried - I mean, I am fairly sociopathic myself, but in a recovery mode for many decades now - But he had sociopathic integrity - He did not want to lie - “This is not me!! I love you guys!” etc etc… Like Paul speaking as a madman boasting of his trials! But in reverse! I still laugh!

And he was changed… He became a much better person… Stopped the stalking he had been doing of one or two posters, etc etc…

Jes’ sayin’!!

geo
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fhansen said:
Did he eventually convert?
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He had been stalking one of the women at her apartment who was posting with us - She was kind of freaking out, understandably… And that stopped, at least for awhile… He became less surly and hostile and more of a glad-hander directing things… We were all pre-Christian - a Rudolph Steiner discussion group - And I left it before seeing how things turned out for him… I pray for him when I remember him…

So God knows… I sure do not…

geo
 
fhansen said:
Crossover is always good. I’ve heard of him but now I’ll do some research.
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In Orthodox monasticism, The Ladder of Divine Ascent is read cover to cover each and every Lent during the Great Fast… Each step of the Ladder addresses a specific praxis… And I confess, I only know the first rung: “Renounce the world…” The best, of course, is Isaac the Syrian’s Ascetical Homilies, plus the Philokalia vol. 1-5, if 5 ever gets finished with its translation. Only one of the translators is still alive, Bp Kallistos, and he is very old now and may not get the last volume completed… It would sell out immediately, so anticipated is its publication…

geo
 
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The idea that we cooperate with our Salvation bothers me for some reason…

I much prefer:
We deny self taking up our cross…
But it is God alone Who Saves…
We do not Save ourselves…
We do not cooperate in our Salvation…

And the reason is that Salvation is God IMPARTING Himself to us…
In that event, we have NOTHING with which to cooperate…
As you said, our cooperation is quintessentially passive…
Indeed, less passive = less Salvation…

To say, for instance: “I am cooperating with God for my Salvation…” in my view would invite a sharp rebuke… It invites the reply: “Oh how very special that must be for you!” And we all have a round of self-congratulations…

I mean, Yikes!!

geo
 
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Geez, Geo, you seem to have some Calvinistic tendencies here maybe! It takes humility to think we must do our part, no matter how small that may be. In Catholic teaching we cannot possibly be saved without God and yet we can always say “no” to salvation, either at the beginning or at any point in our walk later on. We’re never forced to accept grace; grace is resistible. And as we continue on our walk we’re expected to increasely own it, to agree and align with God’s will more and more. Our participation consists in our working out our salvation with He who works in us as per Phil 2. All change comes from Him, but we can refuse.
 
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“fhansen said:
Geez, Geo, you seem to have some Calvinistic tendencies here maybe!
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I have been accused of worse…
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Way worse…

With more justification, I might add… 🙂
It takes humility to think we must do our part, no matter how small that may be.
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The premise here is that we have a part to do, which is arrogance…

Obedience to God is merely what we OWE to God…

Within this obedience, we have no (name removed by moderator)ut for our Salvation…

You see, Salvation is the conjoining of man with God - The Marriage of the Lamb…

Therefore we can only offer Him our death by denial of self in obedience to His Commandments and our taking up our cross to follow Him… In this, we are not “cooperating” in giving ourselves His Life… Being created, we simply do not have God (Who is Uncreated) TO COOPERATE in giving to ourselves Salvation, which is God’s Gift to us… ONLY God HAS God to Give, you see…

Salvation is union with God… Only God CAN have God to give…

So we are Called BY God to Repentance unto Baptism into Christ…

We then enter into repentance and instruction and are Baptized BY God…

In the Illumination of Baptism, we enter into perfecting repentance…

For we are Baptized into Christ’s Death on the Cross…

Whence we are, when/if God deems fit, Glorified BY God into Sainthood…

Notice the human role in all this - Human obedience in denial of self…

So rather than say “Well, I am COOPERATING with God” we prefer to say “By God’s Grace I am repenting from my sins…”

Calvin and I are old combatants…

I loved telling them that we are 100% responsible for our Salvation…
AND…
That we are 100% UNABLE to provide it to ourselves or earn it in any way…

So granted, I did have to learn the Heinlich Manoeuver to rescue those with whom I shared that understanding…

You see, the Grace that Saves us is God’s actual giving of Himself, for Christ is our Salvation… It is not some thing that God creates that saves us…

geo
 
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I like Augustine’s comment. “He who made you without your consent will not save you without your consent.” The gospel is nonsense without this little factoid. From Adam until now God has been seeking to draw man to Himself, without force. Not because He needs to in any way whatsoever but because, in His wisdom and for His purposes for man, He deems it right and good.

And BTW its pretty hard to call one worse than…well, I won’t repeat it here for the sake of propriety.
 
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