Salvation - OT vs NT

[meltzerboy2]

Yes, this is a very good summary of the Jewish meaning of salvation.

 

[fhansen]

I think it would be reasonable, though, to see the promises to Israel as foreshadowing and portending a greater and more important promise regarding eternal life rather than this temporary and finite life. If I reach the promised land, if my enemies are vanquished, if I achieve peace and prosperity in this life it’s still only a temporary condition, pretty well erased at my death. How much meaning does that really give to life? Jesus reveals that these promises are ultimately meant to be fulfilled spiritually: internally and eternally.

 

[BartholomewB]

Yes, this is a very good summary of the Jewish meaning of salvation.

Thank you, @meltzerboy2. The merit is not mine. Credit where it’s due: I learned this from my first Hebrew teacher, Benny Tafla, sadly now deceased.

 

[BartholomewB]

Yes, that is one of the differences between salvation in the OT and in the NT, which is the question @George720 asked in his OP.

 

[fhansen]

What are we saved FROM?

We’re saved from the sin of Adam-that of abandoning and being separated from the God who’s the source and ground of our being. We’re saved from being lost: not knowing where we came from, if anywhere, what we’re here for, if for anything, where we’re going, if anywhere, things that a rational being should really want and need to know.

We’re saved “from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors” (1 Pet 18), because now we know God, the very source of all life and goodness and happiness for man-the fulfilment of any and all desire, desire that we all have and can’t quite fulfill or even identify on our own, while now knowing that this right desire begins here but won’t be fully and completely consummated until the next life.

 

[fhansen]

Yes, that is one of the differences between salvation in the OT and in the NT, which is the question @George720 asked in his OP.

Alright I see.

 

[GiftofMercy]

Catholics view the Old Testament, the Hebrew Bible, in one respect, as God preparing us now and everyone past and future, for the coming of Jesus, and as what we need to know for our Salvation through Jesus.
Catholics believe God reveals only what we need for our Salvation and nothing more. (Ie there is no talk of alien worlds, deep space, black holes, super novas in the Hebrew Bible nor in the New Testament, nor on the physics and biochemistry of the creation of things. We only know, this is the work of God.)
The Bible, both Testaments, are living books. The living Word of God. That is why I say past present and future, the words are timeless…
The Words of God in the Hebrew Bible also make an account of the history of the 12 Tribes and their growing relationship with God and understanding of God.
For everyone the Ten Commandments of the Torah, the Ten sayings, the Decalogue, are a guiding light on living a righteous and just life here on Earth. And putting God first.

Shalom.

 

[George720]

My interest here is in the Western understanding of the difference from and similarity to OT vs NT Salvation… Yes, OT can be understood perhaps in your three modes - Job indeed lost his essence - eg All that he possessed, for OUSIA = Essence = Wealth… So I can see him saying “I lost my Jeshuah.”

But I would like to see how OT Salvation is the precursor, the fore-shadowing, of NT Salvation… And the subjective experience of the two… Because David writes in his great Psalm of Repentance: “Restore unto me the Joy of Thy Salvation…” And this would seem to be an inner condition of being, and not an outer one of possessions and circumstance…

How does NT Salvation emerge from its OT precursor?

Is not one the Type, and the other it’s fulfillment?

geo

ps - As a newby I have to delay responses by house rules - Forgive me for my seeming negligence - I joined here for this thread…

plus:
In the Orthodox Faith we are saved (essentially) from death… Salvation from sin is a derivative and means… Our enemy in this life is death… And yes, death entered through sin, and it is UPON this death, that entered by Adam’s sin, that all HAVE sinned… Overcoming sin is overcoming death… By sinning we embrace death… By overcoming sin we reject death…

This understanding of the Fall, death and sin seems to be not much in evidence among Western Confessions… Which causes the obfuscation of the real meaning of Salvation, OT and NT…

 

[BartholomewB]

How does NT Salvation emerge from its OT precursor?

That’s an interesting question, and I don’t know the answer, but the Christian idea of salvation and damnation, exemplified by the saying about the sheep and the goats, surely depends on belief in an afterlife in which the good (or the elect) are rewarded and the evil (or the reprobate) are punished.

There seems to have been a substantial change in what people believed about the afterlife, possibly as late as the last century or two BC. In the earlier period, when nearly all the OT books were written, Sheol was seen as the dark, gloomy underworld where everyone ended up after their death, the good and the wicked alike. There was no punishment in the afterlife for evildoers nor reward for the saintly. However, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus shows that by the time Jesus began his ministry, there had been a development of that belief. The rich man and Lazarus are still both in Sheol (Hades, in Luke’s Greek) and they are in plain view of one another, and they can carry on a conversation, although they are on opposite sides of a chasm which neither of them can cross. The rich man is in torment, which is clearly a vision of Hell, though I’m not aware of any precedent for that in the OT. Presumably there must be some writings in existence from that period that would demonstrate the transition from the earlier belief in a single Sheol for all to a segregated Heaven and Hell, but I don’t know where to look for those writings. Hopefully other commenters who are reading this will be able to help.

 

[George720]

Well, the Doctrine of Baptisms is fairly straight forward… Noah built the Ark and saved a remnant from the flood, and to this day the Church is called the Ark of Salvation…
Then Moses led the Israelites through the waters of the Red Sea in order to escape from Pharoah’s army, and the hostiles were destroyed in the waters of the Red Sea… Pharoah’s legions were the Type, and Baptism into Christ is its fulfillment… Because in both, the enemies that seek our destruction are themselves destroyed - The first physical, the second non-physical demonic powers… Yet both salvations are from death - The first physical, the second spiritual…

And we have Christ being Baptized by John in the Jordan River’s waters, and we remember that the Jordan River was the boundary of the Promised Land, and through its waters the Israelites had to proceed in order to enter the Promised Land… And now, we find ourselves being entered into the Kingdom of Heaven by passing through the Waters of Regeneration when we are Baptized into Christ, and even into His Death on the Cross…

So Salvation and passing through waters seem very connected, and especially so when we remember that when Christ was speared on the cross, Blood and Water flowed forth upon the earth, His Life and Baptism - Unless you are born of Spirit and of Water you cannot enter the Kingdom…

And we know that ‘rivers of living water’ pour forth from God’s Holy Ones - For Water means the Holy Spirit, and Baptism means full immersion in the Spirit…

So this is my framework for understanding Salvation in terms of Water…

Does the RCC approach these issues in this manner at all?

geo

 

[mhmtas63]

I am very surprised to learn that there is no a strong belief of afterlife. I find some verses point afterlife.

3:23 So the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to be a worker on the earth from which he was taken. Genesis.

32:39 See now, I myself am he; there is no other god but me: giver of death and life, wounding and making well: and no one has power to make you free from my hand. Deuteronomy

23:13	Do not keep back training from the child: for even if you give him blows with the rod, it will not be death to him.
23:14	Give him blows with the rod, and keep his soul safe from the underworld.

23:17	Have no envy of sinners in your heart, but keep in the fear of the Lord all through the day;
23:18	For without doubt there is a future, and your hope will not be cut off.

24:14 So let your desire be for wisdom: if you have it, there will be a future, and your hope will not be cut off. Proverbs

26:19 Your dead will come back; their dead bodies will come to life again. Those in the dust, awaking from their sleep, will send out a song; for your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the shades. Isaiah

12:1	And at that time Michael will take up his place, the great angel, who is the supporter of the children of your people: and there will be a time of trouble, such as there never was from the time there was a nation even till that same time: and at that time your people will be kept safe, everyone who is recorded in the book.
12:2	And a number of those who are sleeping in the dust of the earth will come out of their sleep, some to eternal life and some to eternal shame.
12:3	And those who are wise will be shining like the light of the outstretched sky; and those by whom numbers have been turned to righteousness will be like the stars for ever and ever.
12:4	But as for you, O Daniel, let the words be kept secret and the book rolled up and kept shut till the time of the end: numbers will be going out of the way and troubles will be increased.

Daniel

16:10	For you will not let my soul be prisoned in the underworld; you will not let your loved one see the place of death.
16:11	You will make clear to me the way of life; where you are joy is complete; in your right hand there are pleasures for ever and ever.

Psalms

12:22 Uncovering deep things out of the dark, and making the deep shade bright;
19:26 And … without my flesh I will see God;
21:30 How the evil man goes free in the day of trouble, and has salvation in the day of wrath? Job

 

[BartholomewB]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church sets out in these twelve paragraphs, #1217 to 1228 (link below), the doctrine concerning the sacrament of baptism and its prefigurations in the Old Testament. As you can see, it matches your own account quite closely. However, I don’t see how this helps to answer the question you asked earlier, “How does NT Salvation emerge from its OT precursor?” I read those words as a question about the historical development of the idea of salvation.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P3I.HTM

 

[George720]

Emergence may have been a poor choice of terms…
Perhaps this might be an improvement:

There was Salvation by God in the Old Testament times.
There is Salvation in Christian times…
What are the differences…
How do they typologically connect…
What are the experiential differences…

The basis is the “everyman” approach that asks: “How am I experiencing Salvation in Christ now?” And “How would I have experienced Salvation in the times of the Prophets?” “What do I have that they did not?” and “What can I take from their Salvation as I work with mine in the time I have on earth?”

So on the one hand, theological differences are in view, but mores, practical usefulness is always the focus in Orthodox Theological enquiry… Throughout Revelation, we are always gleaning practical understanding for our personal and ecclesiological walk in the Way that Christ is…

The point of bringing up the Doctrine of Baptisms is that by opening it where all can see how it works from pre-Christian into Christian times, we can use the pattern/structure of Christian understanding can be brought to bear similarly regarding the Christian Doctrine of Salvation…

For instance, the destruction of Pharoah’s pursuing forces in the Red Sea presages the destruction of our demons in the Baptismal Waters of Regeneration, where both seek human destruction and are washed away by such waters…

geo

 

[fhansen]

It was by no means a settled issue within Judaism, with some having the “ashes to ashes, dust to dust” opinion, while Jesus would definitively resolve this and other matters:

"And Sadducees came to him, who say that there is no resurrection." Matt 22:23

"The same day Sadducees came to him, who say that there is no resurrection, and they asked him a question," Mark 12:18

"Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees and others Pharisees, called out in the Sanhedrin, “Brothers, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee. It is because of my hope in the resurrection of the dead that I am on trial.”

As soon as he had said this, a dispute broke out between the Pharisees and Sadducees, and the assembly was divided.For the Sadducees say there is neither a resurrection, nor angels, nor spirits, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all." Acts 23:6-8

 

[BartholomewB]

Emergence may have been a poor choice of terms…

I see. I misunderstood your question. Sorry about that.

 

[fhansen]

This understanding of the Fall, death and sin seems to be not much in evidence among Western Confessions… Which causes the obfuscation of the real meaning of Salvation, OT and NT…

Have you read much in the Catechism on this? It addresses quite well the Fall along with the differences between the covenants: the Old and New Law and how they’re fulfilled.
here:
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p7.htm
then here:
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a1.htm

 

[George720]

Thank-you for the links, especially the first one…

I have understood that what we inherit from Adam is death, not sin - eg that the sin ‘inherited’ is not so called strictly, but only in a derivative sense, and this in accordance with Paul’s account in this passage also cited in the catechism:

[Rom 5:12]
Through which,
just as through one man sin entered into the kosmos,
and death through sin;
so also death came upon all men,
upon which (death) all have sinned:
(My translation)

eg The Fall of Adam caused Adam’s death…
And this death we inherit from Adam…
And upon this inherited death…
All have sinned…

Hence DEATH is our enemy, and our weapon against death is overcoming sin, which we CAN do but normally not all that much, yet the virtue of living righteously is our primary weapon against death - It is a quintessential Christian virtue, this overcoming of sin… And all of us do it somewhat, or we do not live long or remain unimprisoned, mind you, but the Saints, OT and NT and until now, do so in a pretty much wholesale manner, throwing away this life in pursuit of the Christian virtue of overcoming sin…

So that the Psalmist laments, of his own sins, that “In sins did my mother bear me…”, (Ps 50 lxx) not that he was born in original sinning, but that sin begins very early, even in the womb of a mother who has her own young sins, in that mothers started early in those early times, and not in their 30s as so many now do, and hence have normally not had much time for the acquisition of virtue overcoming sin in their own souls, which comprise the universe of the child in their wombs…

Yet Paul puts his finger precisely on the causal relationship: Death causes us in Adam to sin, and it is death that we inherit, and it is upon this death which we inherit that we sin… We are not born sinful, but under the aegis of Death… Which is why we are Baptized into Christ, into His Death on the Cross… For by death is death overcome in our souls in Christ…

And it is this precise understanding of the Fall that I was not able to clearly identify in the Catechism’s link that you so graciously provided… It seems to be smooshed over by incidental inclusion, rather than being rigorously explicated…

geo

 

[fhansen]

I’m not 100% sure about your understanding. The EO maintain that physical death is the primary cause of sin in this life. I think this belief is based on the idea that, without knowing anything more than this life we’re sort of like animals trapped in a slaughterhouse, with no future beyond this one, so sin may as well reign in us. As Paul says in 1 Cor 15:

"If the dead are not raised,
“Let us eat and drink,
for tomorrow we die."

The “knowledge of God”, with all that entails as revealed by Jesus Christ, can resolve this matter, taking away the “sting of death” (1 Cor 15).

But physical death parallels and directly relates to another death: spiritual death, aka the “death of the soul” as the Church puts it. This death, the hallmark of the state known as “Original Sin” caused by Adam’s sin of disobedience and unbelief, consists of spiritual separation of man from God, who is Life itself. But man was made for communion with God and unless subjugated to Him in a relationship of mutual love man cannot long refrain from sin; as man becomes prideful, seeking to be his own god in his bid for autonomy, man only loses, including the loss of self-mastery/ moral integrity-because morality then becomes relative , which really means no morality at all other than the one that I happen to have and value in the moment.

Jesus comes to overcome both deaths; knowing God includes knowing His desire for our eternal life, and eternal life is only worth living to begin with because of the sheer unending bliss that comes by knowing Him immediately. By reconciling man with God Jesus provides the means for restored relationship so that this new life begins now. A major difference between the Old and New Covenants is this very direct knowledge, mentioned, incidentally, in verse 31:34 of the New Covenant prophecy of Jeremiah. And:

“Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” John 17:3

“Now we see but a dim reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.” 1 Cor 13:12

And this knowledge, this communion that begins on our part with faith, is what makes possible the righteousness you speak of that frees us from death (death being the wages of sin), as it opens the avenue of grace to us, that part described in Jer 31:32.

"Apart from Me you can do nothing." John 15:5
That’s the essence of the New Covenant. And, BTW, the name for the righteousness that’s required of us is love, a reflection of God’s own image. Augustine could actually put it this way: “Love, and do as you want.” That’s a very high level of love, attainable only by grace, but it really is that simple.

 

[Vico]

What are the similarities and differences
between Salvation in the Old Testament
and Salvation in the New Testament?

geo

The mystery of salvation was fully revealed with Christ.

Catechism

528 The Epiphany is the manifestation of Jesus as Messiah of Israel, Son of God and Savior of the world. The great feast of Epiphany celebrates the adoration of Jesus by the wise men ( magi ) from the East, together with his baptism in the Jordan and the wedding feast at Cana in Galilee.212 In the magi, representatives of the neighboring pagan religions, the Gospel sees the first-fruits of the nations, who welcome the good news of salvation through the Incarnation. The magi’s coming to Jerusalem in order to pay homage to the king of the Jews shows that they seek in Israel, in the messianic light of the star of David, the one who will be king of the nations.213 Their coming means that pagans can discover Jesus and worship him as Son of God and Savior of the world only by turning towards the Jews and receiving from them the messianic promise as contained in the Old Testament.214 The Epiphany shows that “the full number of the nations” now takes its “place in the family of the patriarchs”, and acquires Israelitica dignitas 215 (is made “worthy of the heritage of Israel”).

707 Theophanies (manifestations of God) light up the way of the promise, from the patriarchs to Moses and from Joshua to the visions that inaugurated the missions of the great prophets. Christian tradition has always recognized that God’s Word allowed himself to be seen and heard in these theophanies, in which the cloud of the Holy Spirit both revealed him and concealed him in its shadow.

774 The Greek word mysterion was translated into Latin by two terms: mysterium and sacramentum . In later usage the term sacramentum emphasizes the visible sign of the hidden reality of salvation which was indicated by the term mysterium . In this sense, Christ himself is the mystery of salvation: "For there is no other mystery of God, except Christ."196 The saving work of his holy and sanctifying humanity is the sacrament of salvation, which is revealed and active in the Church’s sacraments (which the Eastern Churches also call “the holy mysteries”). The seven sacraments are the signs and instruments by which the Holy Spirit spreads the grace of Christ the head throughout the Church which is his Body. The Church, then, both contains and communicates the invisible grace she signifies. It is in this analogical sense, that the Church is called a “sacrament.”

 

[George720]

The EO maintain that physical death is the primary cause of sin in this life.>>>

We do not…

Death entered the Kosmos through Adam’s sin, into which we all who are in Adam are born, and upon this death, all have sinned… This death is also physical… We understand Adam’s death as the darkening of the Nous…

The “knowledge of God”, with all that entails as revealed by Jesus Christ, can resolve this matter, taking away the “sting of death” (1 Cor 15).>>

Referring to John’s words: “This eternal Life IS: To be knowing the One True God…”?

"Apart from Me you can do nothing." John 15:5
That’s the essence of the New Covenant.
“Love, and do as you want.”
That’s a very high level of love, attainable only by grace, but it really is that simple.>>

So you seem to be saying that knowledge of (knowing) God is Salvation…

So if that is true then Salvation is the same in both the OT and the NT? I mean, David knew God, as did Moses, and Isaac, and Abraham, and on and on…

What does the Christian Salvation add to the Judaic Salvation?
How does it differ?
Is it experienced differently?

geo