G
George720
Guest
I think we have established that we both agree that theosis occurs in both the OT and the NT Saints, yes? And that Salvation cannot be ONLY for the Saints, yes?
I love teasing this along with you!
geo
- Status
G
GiftofMercy
Guest
Is this meant to be to me? That was all a post from fhansen.
However, did you want to post those two biblical passages you are referring to, that I had asked. Just so we can see the context and discuss it clearly
However, did you want to post those two biblical passages you are referring to, that I had asked. Just so we can see the context and discuss it clearly
F
fhansen
Guest
You’re mean…
Better be worth it. 
Better be worth it.
Last edited:
F
fhansen
Guest
Alright, but when we flesh out the term “death” as used here we seem to end up with basically the same description of how the Fall affected man I think. And yes, the knowledge of God was lost at the Fall, and yes, Adam didn’t repent. He wasn’t even ready at the time I’m sure but most likely repented by now after experience and grace finally had its way-just my opinion.
Ok, so we’re saved from sin and its wages: death.
Ok, so we’re saved from sin and its wages: death.
G
George720
Guest
I just posted it this morning in my previous reply to you…
Edited to add: Maybe I just dreamed I posted it this morning!
I mean, I can’t find it…
I had an edit issue which may have erased it…
Anyway, it is in post my post 53 in this thread…
Forgive me for the confusion…
- The two are the same one…
Matthew 11:11
Edited to add: Maybe I just dreamed I posted it this morning!
I mean, I can’t find it…
I had an edit issue which may have erased it…
Anyway, it is in post my post 53 in this thread…
Forgive me for the confusion…
Last edited:
G
George720
Guest
Well, you are getting slightly warmer…
You see, until you sin, you cannot be saved from sin…
You cannot be saved from Adam’s sin…
Adam’s sin is not your sin…
You did not inherit sin from Adam…
You inherited a darkened nous…
Which IS Adam’s death…
Physically consummated some 900+ years after he sinned…
Gen 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,
thou shalt not eat of it:
for -in the day- that thou eatest thereof
thou shalt surely die.
Adam died IN THE DAY that he ate thereof…
AND…
Adam died 900+ years later, physically…
Spiritual death, for us, normally refers to our consecrating ourselves to sin…
Committing one’s self to evil…
Embracing a life inimical to God…
There is no knowledge of God -
eg a Body of Knowledge -
eg a Printed Volume…
Knowledge of God is Knowing God…
And that Knowing IS Life Eternal…
It is a condition of soul in this life…
It is a quality of being…
It can be lost…
Demonic powers
Want those who have it…
To lose it…
Protestants often taunt this understanding by replying: “Well, if you say it is Life Eternal, and it can cease, then it is not eternal, because it CAN be lost…” The reply: “The quality of soul that experiences life as eternal can be lost…” , is normally lost on such who thus taunt… Except for those who have experienced it… Those merely nod their heads in acquiescence…
Adam did not repent the day he sinned, so that his repentance at the Gates of Paradise for the rest of his life did not avail him… Christ broke him out at Pascha…
geo
Last edited:
G
George720
Guest
So here is a clue for F. Hansen, who seems to be tracking this thread rather closely…
What is the New Creation we live?
I mean, you HAVE to know the difference between the two Salvations already…
When you see it, you are going to do the big DAAaaaaahhhhhhh!!!
I did this exercise on a Protestant board, and a lot of them were devotees to the logical chains of St. Paul, and they were following the logical clues with which I kept teasing them forth, and none could tell me the difference - And Theosis is not a part of their theological upbringing - And when I finally unloaded it on them, they were ALL dumb-founded with forehead smackings, I tell you!
So with that, I will give you another clue:
What does “in the Kingdom of the Heavens” mean???
Enough!
Happy Father’s Day…
geo
What is the New Creation we live?
I mean, you HAVE to know the difference between the two Salvations already…
When you see it, you are going to do the big DAAaaaaahhhhhhh!!!
I did this exercise on a Protestant board, and a lot of them were devotees to the logical chains of St. Paul, and they were following the logical clues with which I kept teasing them forth, and none could tell me the difference - And Theosis is not a part of their theological upbringing - And when I finally unloaded it on them, they were ALL dumb-founded with forehead smackings, I tell you!
So with that, I will give you another clue:
What does “in the Kingdom of the Heavens” mean???
Enough!
Happy Father’s Day…
geo
G
GiftofMercy
Guest
This speaks of John the Baptist
Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
It speaks of those in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Jesus is also born of a woman, there is more to this then a literal reading.
Is this also the one about Ananais.?
Last edited:
G
George720
Guest
Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
It speaks of greater and least, and how the least is greater than the greatest…
It speaks of two realms, of OT Salvation and NT Salvation…
It is Jesus Who is speaking…
Is Ananias IN the Kingdom of Heaven?
geo
Last edited:
G
GiftofMercy
Guest
What is your definition of this bible passage and the Kingdom of Heaven and just who Jesus is speaking about here
G
George720
Guest
G
GiftofMercy
Guest
I cannot answer such a question if I have absolutely no idea what you are interpreting as the Kingdom of Heaven.
G
George720
Guest
Jesus is speaking of ALL the OT Saints, and especially the Prophets, including John…
THAT is on the one hand…
OTOH - He is speaking of those IN the Kingdom of Heaven…
The Gospel of Jesus Christ:
“Repent, for the Kingdom of the Heavens is at hand!” (John the Baptist)
“Repent, for the Kingdom of the Heavens is at hand!” (Jesus after John’s death)
“Repent and be baptized every one of you…” (Peter after Jesus’ Death)
So IS the Kingdom of Heaven HERE AND NOW?
Or is it instead THERE AND THEN?
geo
G
George720
Guest
OK - So what is the Kingdom of Heaven as reported by John, Jesus and Peter?
And was Ananias in it when he bBaptized Paul?
geo
Last edited:
F
fhansen
Guest
Still trying to figure out if there’s going to be anything new here, but I’ll play along-slow day today as I’ve been feeling a bit off and laying low -so I’ve got more time than usual. And Happy Father’s day to you as well!
So those in the Kingdom of Heaven have been born again- into a spiritual realm, translated from death to life. Far as I can go.
So those in the Kingdom of Heaven have been born again- into a spiritual realm, translated from death to life. Far as I can go.
G
George720
Guest
Can you see the contrast in Matt 11:11 between OT and NT people, even their Saints?
IF Ananias baptizing Paul was IN the Kingdom of Heaven…
THEN he is greater than ANY OT Saint…
So the question becomes very germane: Was he or was he not?
And THEN we can ask the NEXT question, on this your slow Father’s Day!
geo
Last edited:
G
George720
Guest
The Kingdom of the Heavens in John’s ministry is “AT HAND”, yes?
AND
There IS something we can DO about that fact…
We can repent from our sins…
Which is the Good News of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, yes?
So we adopt lives of repentance from sin and overcoming evil, get Baptized into Christ, and live lives of vigilance overcoming dark dominions and powers…
Do we do this in the Kingdom of Heaven?
The Kingdom of the Heavens has this in common with all kingdoms:
A Kingdom is a place where the King is obeyed…
So was Ananias in the Kingdom of Heaven?
Or was he in that of John the Baptist who went to hell…
Even though undaunted enough to preach Christ there, mind you!
geo
AND
There IS something we can DO about that fact…
We can repent from our sins…
Which is the Good News of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, yes?
So we adopt lives of repentance from sin and overcoming evil, get Baptized into Christ, and live lives of vigilance overcoming dark dominions and powers…
Do we do this in the Kingdom of Heaven?
The Kingdom of the Heavens has this in common with all kingdoms:
A Kingdom is a place where the King is obeyed…
So was Ananias in the Kingdom of Heaven?
Or was he in that of John the Baptist who went to hell…
Even though undaunted enough to preach Christ there, mind you!
geo
F
fhansen
Guest
Yes, Ananias was in the Kingdom of Heaven.
G
George720
Guest
@fhansen
!!!BINGO!!!
See - That wasn’t so hard, right??
Nobody wanted to say so…
The Good News is the HERE AND NOW of the Kingdom of the Heavens,
and the fact that we can DO something about it…
THEN we have this arresting thought from the Lips of Jesus -
Indeed from the very next line after Matthew 11:11:
[Mat 11:12]
And from the days of John the Baptist until now
the kingdom of heaven is suffering violence,
and the violent are seizing it
by force.
So what kind of force is it that the violent are using to seize [harpazo - a la harpoon] the Kingdom of the Heavens from the time of John the Baptist until the present??
And once past that minor hurdle, we can then discern the fact that Christians in the Body of Christ ARE in the Kingdom of Heaven, because they are members of that Body living in obedience to Christ, yes?
Now how does this get us to the difference between OT and NT Salvations?
The OT faithful circumcised its children into the Covenant of Israel…
They gave them the Law…
And discipled obedience to God…
They did the same for converts as adults…
NT Christians do much the same…
They Baptize their Children into Christ…
And disciple them in the way of repentance…
And do the same for adult converts…
So what happens in Baptism?
1 - Our sins are washed away
2 - Our souls are purified
3 - We are reborn into Christ
4 - We are sealed in the Holy Spirit
So that when we emerge from these Waters of Regeneration…
We are re-born from above…
We have the Seal of the Holy Spirit…
As such, we are a NEW CREATION in Christ…
BECAUSE…
By being washed clean and reborn in Baptism…
We have regained the Garden, you see…
And by being Chrismated…
We are enhypostatically transformed
We have entered through this Baptismal Initiation into Christ…
The Great Mystery of the Faith of Jesus Christ…
Which He discipled to His Disciples…
Which Paul describes thus:
[Col 1:27]
To whom God would make known
what is the riches of the glory of this mystery
among the Gentiles;
which is Christ in you,
the hope of glory:
You see, Moses, being super-saturated in the Holy Spirit, was still Moses…
He has been truly Saved and Godded, but only externally…
But by Baptism into Christ, we are not only given the Holy Spirit…
But we are hypostatically transformed by the Holy Chrism of the Church…
We are no longer our old man, but a New Creation…
We are united to God in the most fundamental way…
At the very root of our personhood…
And yes, we are still fully capable of throwing it away…
And THAT is the difference between Salvation in the OT vs that in the NT…
It is the MYSTERY of Christ IN you that the OT Saints did not have,
because they did not have the Baptism of Christ into Christ’s Holy Body…
It is why we are called Christians…
And it is why they are not…
geo
!!!BINGO!!!
See - That wasn’t so hard, right??
Nobody wanted to say so…
The Good News is the HERE AND NOW of the Kingdom of the Heavens,
and the fact that we can DO something about it…
THEN we have this arresting thought from the Lips of Jesus -
Indeed from the very next line after Matthew 11:11:
[Mat 11:12]
And from the days of John the Baptist until now
the kingdom of heaven is suffering violence,
and the violent are seizing it
by force.
So what kind of force is it that the violent are using to seize [harpazo - a la harpoon] the Kingdom of the Heavens from the time of John the Baptist until the present??
And once past that minor hurdle, we can then discern the fact that Christians in the Body of Christ ARE in the Kingdom of Heaven, because they are members of that Body living in obedience to Christ, yes?
Now how does this get us to the difference between OT and NT Salvations?
The OT faithful circumcised its children into the Covenant of Israel…
They gave them the Law…
And discipled obedience to God…
They did the same for converts as adults…
NT Christians do much the same…
They Baptize their Children into Christ…
And disciple them in the way of repentance…
And do the same for adult converts…
So what happens in Baptism?
1 - Our sins are washed away
2 - Our souls are purified
3 - We are reborn into Christ
4 - We are sealed in the Holy Spirit
So that when we emerge from these Waters of Regeneration…
We are re-born from above…
We have the Seal of the Holy Spirit…
As such, we are a NEW CREATION in Christ…
BECAUSE…
By being washed clean and reborn in Baptism…
We have regained the Garden, you see…
And by being Chrismated…
We are enhypostatically transformed
We have entered through this Baptismal Initiation into Christ…
The Great Mystery of the Faith of Jesus Christ…
Which He discipled to His Disciples…
Which Paul describes thus:
[Col 1:27]
To whom God would make known
what is the riches of the glory of this mystery
among the Gentiles;
which is Christ in you,
the hope of glory:
You see, Moses, being super-saturated in the Holy Spirit, was still Moses…
He has been truly Saved and Godded, but only externally…
But by Baptism into Christ, we are not only given the Holy Spirit…
But we are hypostatically transformed by the Holy Chrism of the Church…
We are no longer our old man, but a New Creation…
We are united to God in the most fundamental way…
At the very root of our personhood…
And yes, we are still fully capable of throwing it away…
And THAT is the difference between Salvation in the OT vs that in the NT…
It is the MYSTERY of Christ IN you that the OT Saints did not have,
because they did not have the Baptism of Christ into Christ’s Holy Body…
It is why we are called Christians…
And it is why they are not…
geo
Last edited:
G
George720
Guest
- Status