Salvation - OT vs NT

[OSN]

The deacon at my parish, gave an interesting homily on how we can’t have a clear understanding with out both the old and new testament, together.

that the new testament didnt make sense with out the old.

I checked out after that.

I would agree that the old testament is needed to a point of understanding the prelude of a promise by God the Father, and that it all leads to Jesus in the New Testament.

While the O.T does offer many people a lot to reflect on, I just don’t see the O.T as an entirety of being completely necessary. I can’t even force myself to call them " Books ". I refer to a secular term for the word Book. An not this idea of a book with " mini books " in it, that in turn are really just, letters, personal writings that were made public or factual accounts that were written down for posterity .

not that it matters.

I think what is more interesting is that there is idea out there that Jesus either didn’t have the time, or ability to write anything Himself. That either materials to write with were not readily available, or for some reason He wasn’t educated enough to read and write.

Either of which is nonsense , considering the Miracles Jesus did, refutes that there was no chance that Jesus couldn’t of come up with some parchment and something to write with, let alone 2 spare minutes to jot something down.

For me it would be more probable that there are writings , physically by Jesus, that are locked up and away never to see the light of day again , by the Vatican. Not for any nefarious reason, but I would wager more out of ignorance and pride.

 

[George720]

Geez George, your terminology sounds nearly Thomistic-for an Easterner!

Flattery will get you no-where…

Turns out Thomas did not finish his great work of the Summa because he had a vision of God…
Stopped teaching and when confronted by his Abbot, said:
All I have written is straw - I will not write or teach anything again…
We have a Bishop - Kalistos Ware - one of the great British pedants…
The only time I have EVER seem him get emotional and excited is…
When he is reading Thomas Aquinas’ Summa in Latin…
Then back to English and totally pedantic again…
Amazing thing…

geo

 

[George720]

You should ask him if he’s read the catechism.

AFTER he was introduced as the CHIEF catechist on Catholic Answers???

Too catty for me!

The difference is clearly described IMO.

Where in the catechism does it say that man is hypostatically changed when Baptized into Christ?

I think you point to a real problem though. I left the Catholic Church, and therefore Christianity, partly because I didn’t understand the message (and partly because I was 17 and had other agendas), but returned years later after reading the bible-a lot- and finding Jer 31:32-34, probably via Hebrews 8 & 10. Because it spoke of a change , that God intended to make in us, whereas the faith as I’d experienced having it taught to me seemed basically legalistic-and dull-and strictly demanding.

Well, in Latin circles, it DOES seem to be oriented around authoritarian rule and crime and punishment… Whereas in our circles, it is more oriented toward authoritative guidance for sin and recovery…

The catechism, however, also acknowledges this change as do the sacraments, themselves, properly understood, as I’ve mentioned.

Well, Christian Salvation is not just experiencing change for the good…
Moses was saturated with the Holy Spirit…
And the least in the Kingdom of Heaven here on earth…
Is greater than he was…

So WHY is that so?

Does the catechism answer that?

Arsenios

 

[fhansen]

That’s cool. I’ve read Mr Ware myself but have to admit spending much more time in the Summa. And the Church obviously thought more of STA’s prodigious output than he did at the end.

 

[fhansen]

Where in the catechism does it say that man is hypostatically changed when Baptized into Christ?

2014 Spiritual progress tends toward ever more intimate union with Christ. This union is called “mystical” because it participates in the mystery of Christ through the sacraments - “the holy mysteries” - and, in him, in the mystery of the Holy Trinity. God calls us all to this intimate union with him, even if the special graces or extraordinary signs of this mystical life are granted only to some for the sake of manifesting the gratuitous gift given to all.

 

[George720]

Where in the catechism does it say
that man is hypostatically changed
when Baptized into Christ?

Nobody seems to get it…

Was Moses intimately united with God?

geo

 

[fhansen]

1227 According to the Apostle Paul, the believer enters through Baptism into communion with Christ’s death, is buried with him, and rises with him:

Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

The baptized have "put on Christ."Through the Holy Spirit, Baptism is a bath that purifies, justifies, and sanctifies.

 

[fhansen]

Was Moses intimately united with God?

I’d say no, not on a continuous basis anyway.

 

[George720]

Was Moses intimately united with God?

OK -

Does theosis exist in the OT?

Did Moses have it?

Does it transform a person?

I mean, I think you know it does…

geo

 

[George720]

1227 According to the Apostle Paul, the believer enters through Baptism into communion with Christ’s death, is buried with him, and rises with him:

Let me get the Greek, because I do not remember it quite saying this:

η αγνοειτε οτι
Or are you ignorant? [unknowing] Because…

οσοι εβαπτισθημεν εις χριστον ιησουν
as many as have been Baptized into Christ Jesus

εις τον θανατον αυτου εβαπτισθημεν
Into the Death of Him have been Baptized

συνεταφημεν ουν αυτω
we have been buried accordingly with Him

δια του βαπτισματος εις τον θανατον
through the Baptism into the Death

ινα ωσπερ ηγερθη χριστος εκ νεκρων
in order that just as was raised Christ from the dead

δια της δοξης του πατρος
through the Glory of the Father

ουτως και ημεις
in this manner also we ourselves

εν καινοτητι ζωης
in newness of Life

περιπατησωμεν
should live and walk

So there is no communion with Christ’s Death, and the Scripture simply states that by doing this we SHOULD walk in newness of Life…

The baptized have "put on Christ."Through the Holy Spirit, Baptism is a bath that purifies, justifies, and sanctifies.

All of the last is correct… Yet we are also reborn in Baptism…

And nowhere am I finding our hypostatic rebirth mentioned…

Or reborn FROM what INTO what?

Just a bucket list of benefits…

Is hypostasis even a Catholic word?

geo

 

[fhansen]

Ok, the catechism also speaks of rebirth in places. Is there a difference between rebirth and hypostatic rebirth? And communion with Christ’s death is inappropriately stated? Scripture often admonishes believers about what they should do, while elsewhere speaking as if the new state of being is already appropriated or realized.

 

[fhansen]

I can’t say that Theosis had taken place, if Moses was being transformed into God’s image although his experience may well have been part of that process. I know that he had been powerfully touched in some manner by God, by His presence, and was obviously profoundly affected.

 

[George720]

I can’t say that Theosis had taken place, if Moses was being transformed into God’s image although his experience may well have been part of that process. I know that he had been powerfully touched in some manner by God, by His presence, and was obviously profoundly affected.

Theosis is the divination of man by proximity with the Grace of God in a direct encounter with God… It happened to Thomas Aquinas and he stopped writing and teaching… It is the cause of holiness in people… Close encounters with God that transform the person having them IS Theosis… It happened in the OT and it happens in NT times… It is not restricted to culture…
"I will have Mercy on whom I will have Mercy…" is pretty much God’s way of saying it… An d you were right - For some, it takes but a one instant encounter, and for others, like Moses, it can go on for 40 days and 40 nights on the mountain… By divine proximity with God ARE we transformed…

But this is NOT what differentiates Salvation in the OT from Salvation in the NT… Both had it… Both brought the dead back to life… And Baptism is rarely into Theosis, although in the early days it came close with the speaking in foreign languages by the Holy Spirit… But Baptism IS into Christ, and Christ IS God, and so we cannot BE a member of the Body of Christ without being Baptized into Christ, and therefore that Baptism causes a fundamental change in our human nature… We become no longer merely anthropos, but theanthropos, by Grace… In the Anointing… So that divinization is not merely the an effect of saturation from without - eg an exterior infusion - But is instead an outpouring from within the person… Not an overpayment of the Holy Spirit, but proceeding from the Holy Spirit Who is now a part of our hypostasis, our very personhood… IF we live Truth and walk according to Christ…

Look - Had Adam not sinned, Christ would still have incarnated, to incorporate man into God - Except that in that event, Christ Death on the Cross would not have been needed or done…

So that divinization proceeds ‘from without’ in the OT to ‘from within’ in the NT…
The Law accords conformance from without…
The Faith of Christ accords conformance from within…

Willful denial of self…

The destruction of our ‘Old Man’…

geo

 

[George720]

One of the consequences of being Baptized into Christ in NT Salvation is the presence in these times of many more Saints in each generation, for the Saint is the one, generally speaking, who has attained Divinization (or Theosis), and by Christian Standards, the OT times had few Holy Ones… And while statistics bear little Spiritual fruit, there are thousands of Saints alive on earth at any given time in Christian times, whereas in OT times, one might be raised up but every once in a while… And granted, most are “hidden in Christ”, some are accessible, and you never know when you might run into one… Indeed, in the US, they are emerging, home-grown… And they are awesome! And they are American!

In OT times, very few could move through the Law to holiness, as Paul reported… For the vast majority, the Way to God was too hard to attain, and those who tried found themselves unable to overcome sin… Speaking as one of these, Paul said: “What I would not, that I do… And what I would, that I do not…” But now, the root cause has been addressed… The darkening of the nous has been enlightened in the Waters of Regeneration, and we have been enhypostatically conjoined to God as His New Creation… And when properly discipled in this condition, we CAN overcome sin, and we no longer have to be victims of temptations… We can struggle and fight against and overcome sin in our own lives… And if we do so, we will find ourselves in possession of the Holy Spirit, for God will use us in His Love for us and for mankind… Whereas apart from this Baptism, we find virtual unanimity in accord with NOT being able to overcome sin…

Yet among those so Baptized, sin is found to have remarkable persistence, yet the Church does have the medicines of immortality with which to treat the one engaging the struggle to overcome… For those not so Baptized, the matter is simply acquiesced, and some even theologically justify not overcoming sin by saying we do not have to do so ourselves, because Christ died for our sins, and His Death suffices for our inability to succeed… Another topic, I know…

But Theosis was OT Salvation, and it still is in the NT, but now the basis for it is established hypostatically… Few find it apart from Baptism… Yet those few DO find it… And they tend to be pillars!

Enough rambling!

geo

 

[George720]

Ok, the catechism also speaks of rebirth in places. Is there a difference between rebirth and hypostatic rebirth? And communion with Christ’s death is inappropriately stated?

Well, rebirth is the issue, after all - eg Rebirth FROM what TO what? Mentioning rebirth and tossing the concept into the Salvation bucket does not attain all that much clarity… I mean, we might want to think that we are just given a new start! Hey, we were born, went on to live a sinful life, but now we get baptized and all those sins are washed away, and we get this re-start from being cleansed of all sin… Or we might think rebirth is a re-consecration of focus to re-vitalize our efforts to be less sinful… It can mean a lot of things… But the Church understands Rebirth as a result of the putting to death the Old Man, washing away of all sins, and then… And then… ??? ??? The rebirth of the person into newness to life in purity of soul… And then?? We Eastern Catholics THEN ANNOINT the newly reborn with the Holy Chrism… Which imparts the Gift of the Holy Spirit into the hypostasis of their soul, and that person is no longer merely reborn anew in purity, which Adam had, but is further initiated into the Holiness of God now being a part of that person’s personhood, which Adam did NOT have… But the one Baptized into Christ now has… Adam, you see, was not IN Christ… But WE ARE… Because we have been Chrismated in the Holy Chrism of the Church and SEALED in that Chrismation…

I do not think you have been taught to think about it this way…

Baptism does not erase the sin of Adam, nor does it bypass his death which we have inherited… Instead, it embraces that death while living, and in that embrace, which is the taking up of one’s own cross and following Christ, it overcomes the death embraced… For we are Baptized into Christ’s Death on the Cross, that we take up our own cross and follow Him into the Resurrection…

You see, through Baptism, we now HAVE what Adam did NOT HAVE, albeit at a price - eg The price of our earthly and fallen and carnal life, unto the acquisition of the Holy Spirit as we make room by overcoming sin in our own hearts and souls…

Is this not your Catholic teaching as well??

geo

 

[George720]

And the silence was reported to be deafening…

@fhansen You started out wondering if anything I was explaining was not covered or was all that different from the Catholic Catechism Online, and I have been eagerly awaiting your report… I mean, am I so far outside the lines that no discussion is possible? Or did you come down with the flu? Or am I in the wrong area for this topic? It just seems to be such a basic question… Is there a difference between the OT and the NT Salvations, and if so, what is that difference, and if not, then did Christ incarnate simply to forgive us our sins?

I sure hope I haven’t offended anyone or egregiously violated the norms here…

geo

 

[fhansen]

Patience is a Christlike virtue Geo. The truth is that I’m in SoCal on a family vacation-the first I’ve actually been able to take during the summer in years incidentally-and I often get those “looks” from my wife when she sees me over-indulging in my extra-curricular activities. I already get those at home often enough as it is.

Anyway yes, I’m trying to assess your understanding-and the differences between ours. Yes, the RCC teaches that salvation is not about merely returning man to Eden. We have a great advantage here over Adam. We experience life apart from God first of all so that, like Prodigals, we may already be helped to come to see the true value of the Father. And then God worked with humanity through the centuries, grace ever-present through our struggles to ultimately prepare us for “so great a Redeemer” (from the Exsultet) who came to lead us back to Him, to a union that was presumably available to Adam but that he bypassed and forfeited with his “bigger and better” plans. And from the large perspective in all this, God made His world in a “state of journeying to perfection”; we work out our salvation by our choices, by our response to grace, with our freedom ultimately intended to bind itself-to bind us-to God.

It sounds by what you say that the EO may have this plan more distinctly and clearly worked out and explained but at this point I’m just listening, and pondering, to be honest.

 

[George720]

Patience is a Christlike virtue Geo.

I have never been accused of virtue!

The truth is that I’m in SoCal on a family vacation-

Family vacation and SoCal are mutually anathematic, Mr Hansen…

the first I’ve actually been able to take during the summer in years incidentally-

I have not taken a vacation in decades - Gave 'em up when I became Orthodox… If I get time away from work, I go on pilgrimages to monasteries to work and pray - But unlike you, I am not accountable to a wife, which is greatly freeing, although I do have to answer to each and every OTHER man’s wife in the parish… Mind you!! .

and I often get those “looks” from my wife
when she sees me over-indulging
in my extra-curricular activities.

Extra curricular???

You need to beseech her toes with your tears,
Begging a possible indulgence from her…
Release, I say, from your anguish!
A mere withholding of a brief glower!

I already get those at home often enough as it is.

Well, when it all heads south…
The old Orthodox Catholic says:
Glory to God in ALL things!!

I feel your pain, Bro!

At least I didn’t say or do something wrong…

Maybe…

Thanks for the reply…

More later - I have a day job you know…

geo

 

[fhansen]

A day job! So mundane for such a highly spiritually developed sort of fellow. Maybe you should think about full-time monastery residency instead of just pilgrimages George. Just sayin’.

But, yes, I can find God even through the hazy SoCal skies, just more dimly. I’ll see Him more clearly again when back to NorCal- I’m hoping.

 

[LoveMercyGrace]

The salvation and words of Jesus Christ in the NT is the fulfillment of the OT. They are not apart from one another.
If we begin by reading the Four Gospels and Acts first, listen to what Jesus says to us and read the things he did, then the rest of the Bible will make sense.