Salvation - OT vs NT

[George720]

So here is a question for those of you struggling to answer questions about this Biblical text: And I mean, several gave their personal opinions, and in this pile, I too gave my opinion… No one went to the Catholic Catechism Online, perhaps because the Parable of the Ten Virgins is not a searchable item in that catechism - I don’t know… But one of the greatest of all Biblical Commentators, and T.H.E. commentator on the Apostle Paul, is St. John Chrysostom… And he is your Saint as well as ours… And he commented extensively on most of the NT Bible - I never looked at OT Commentary from him - And when a question that is unfamiliar arises on a Bible passage, why does the question find its default in personal opinion with no reference to the Church Fathers?

And yes, that question is designed to prick your conscience…

I mean, if the Catechism doesn’t address a matter, and the Curia don’t seem to care about it, or at least have not seen fit to have it included in the Catechism - And in this regard, is Bible Commentary included in the Catechism? - Then what is one to do with obviously important yet unasked questions about Biblical interpretation? Personal opinions are obviously shoals for deep thinking keels with ship-destroying rocks hidden just beneath the surface of the waters… It is what we tend to fault Protestant thinkers for, yes? So where does one go or do when some blabber-mouth like me comes along with a question that would seem to be a good and really basic question that is not addressed by the Catechism?

Anyhoots… That question occurred to me this morning - The first day of the Apostles Fast - A fish day for us in a Fast that only lasts a week of no meat, wine or oil, as prescribed by the Church Calendar for only a week this year…

I know for us, we simply ask our priest, and he will either answer the question or stick our noses on the patristic trail for the Church’s answer… And sometimes, we just don’t know!

geo

 

[fhansen]

Well, Church Fathers have a great deal of deserved appreciation of course, while not necessarily accurate in all matters. The Church is certainly aware of St John’s writings, and quotes him here and there in the Catechism in fact. Anyway it’s possible that the Church hasn’t considered the parable to convey much more meaning than the obvious: we’re to be prepared, we’re to pursue and retain holiness during the time we have-and at some point we simply haven’t taken the message seriously enough to have made those preparations. Incidentally it certainly stands against the faith alone or OSAS doctrine.

 

[George720]

@fhansen

Did you read the Chrysostom commentary that I linked to on this passage?

I was kind of struck with it…

Not how I was understanding the matter at all…

geo

 

[fhansen]

Yes, I did. I just understood it in more general terms.

 

[fhansen]

I realized later that your were referring to the New Advent link, which I went ahead and read. This paragraph seemed especially edifying to me:

“Knowing then these things, let us contribute alike wealth, and diligence, and protection, and all things for our neighbor’s advantage. For the talents here are each person’s ability, whether in the way of protection, or in money, or in teaching, or in whatever thing of the kind. Let no man say, I have but one talent, and can do nothing; for you can even by one approve yourself. For you are not poorer than that widow; you are not more uninstructed than Peter and John, who were both unlearned and ignorant men; Acts 4:13 but nevertheless, since they showed forth a zeal, and did all things for the common good, they attained to Heaven. For nothing is so pleasing to God, as to live for the common advantage.”

I’m not sure where St JC came up with the idea that the virgins were to specifically give alms but in general terms he’s saying that the oil consists of-or derives from-our helping our neighbor, whether that be in almsgiving or “protection” or teaching, etc. From another paragraph:

"These parables are like the former parable of the faithful servant, and of him that was ungrateful and devoured his Lord’s goods. For there are four in all, in different ways admonishing us about the same things, I mean about diligence in almsgiving, and about helping our neighbor by all means which we are able to use, since it is not possible to be saved in another way."

In any case this is all a matter of obeying God’s will as he guides us, by doing “for the least of these” (Matt 25) or doing “those works prepared for us in Christ Jesus” (Eph 2:10). In this way we build up merits, we work out our salvation; we can hopefully say, with St Paul, “Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.” (Phil 3)

 

[George720]

I’m not sure where St JC came up with the idea that the virgins were to specifically give alms but in general terms he’s saying that the oil consists of-or derives from-our helping our neighbor, whether that be in almsgiving or “protection” or teaching, etc.

It comes, perhaps, from the purchasability of the oil that will fuel the lamps… I think we can safely say that there is oil that is not purchasable, and that there is oil that can be attained in other ways that are not commonly available in the market place… But the poor we always have with us, and even if you have but a single talent, you can always help them because they are always in need…

One of the Mysteries of monastic life is that the monk embraces poverty - He does not help the poor, but becomes one of them, adding to their burden and not alleviating it, recusing themselves in cells and starving themselves in labors and vigils… So where are they helping the poor?

But you see, the rich ARE the poor, and it is their holy prayers for them that now constitute alms that alleviate the poverty in which they struggle in their material ease… Nor are they even aware of their poverty, neither the monk nor the rich man - The one knowing only God, and the other knowing only comfort and ease…

I used to think the rich were contemptible…
That the poor were soooo superior…
I was just wrong…

But any mother’s son CAN purchase the Holy Spirit through the giving of alms…
And tons and tons of us do, unawares perhaps…
Or, if like me, greedily!!
Giving nothing you receive everything…
The ultimate Jewish deal!

"These parables are like the former parable of the faithful servant, and of him that was ungrateful and devoured his Lord’s goods. For there are four in all, in different ways admonishing us about the same things, I mean about diligence in almsgiving, and about helping our neighbor by all means which we are able to use, since it is not possible to be saved in another way."

Key term above is by all means…
For a holy one, prayer is alms…
For you and me, we better include some food and clothes and money…



geo

[/QUOTE]

 

[George720]

…since it is not possible to be saved in another way."

This is a profound witness to the corporate nature of Salvation - To the profound social nature of the isolated hermit praying in seclusion - Perhaps even that antisocial one who flat out cannot abide people’s presence, yet turning that curse into a blessing that dispenses God’s Grace, the Oil of Gladness, to those very ones he cannot socially abide…

For we are all members of One Body, and live for the sake of that One Body…

And there do exist different parts of that Body with different Members comprising the parts…

Functioning as a Member of the Body of Christ for the sake of that Body IS Salvation…

In the OT the Saints dispensed Grace to the sinful Israelites at God’s Command…

Much like in the NT, yes?

And what is the difference?

Thanks for re-checking Chrysostom -
I could tell you had missed it -
Hence the query…

Throwing a dollar into the beggar’s cup purchases the Holy Spirit…

Keeping the dollar to purchase a lottery ticket purchases death…

What we do matters, yes?

geo

 

[fhansen]

What we do matters, especially as it reflects love in us, the right motivator behind such acts and the true measure of man’s justice. Still don’t know about almsgiving being the sole act meant in that parable tho-seems like a stretch-although, yes, that particular way of helping neighbor involves a monetary exchange, so the oil/grace could be said to be “purchased” I suppose.

 

[George720]

Still don’t know about almsgiving being the sole act meant in that parable tho-seems like a stretch-although, yes, that particular way of helping neighbor involves a monetary exchange, so the oil/grace could be said to be “purchased” I suppose.

That is how the one with but a single talent can ‘buy’ the Holy Spirit - But giving alms to the poor… “For as you have done it to these the least of My brethren, so have ye done it to me…” And if the Virgins are relying solely on their virginity to enter the Bridal Chamber, then they will not enter, for the Bridegroom knows them not… They must give alms, or in their foolishness they will be locked out…

Freely have ye received…
Freely should ye give…

Suffering itself is a gift…
Or it can be…

The dollar in the beggar’s cup does not earn God’s Grace…

But it does purchase it…

It IS a single talent…

It CAN be invested…

Or squandered…

geo

 

[fhansen]

What’s interesting too about this understanding is how directly it flies in the face of the sola fide doctrine. Almost as if these parables (referred to in the article) are overlooked. The Parable of the Talents especially has always impressed me as explaining that we need to do something-and how that “process” works: the dynamics of grace so to speak.

 

[George720]

We do not have the option of simply burying our talent in the ground - It is given to us that we should increase it… And what does it mean to give it to money-lenders so at least is grows interest?

Might have to read Chrysostom again…

I am guessing that it might mean simply believing and tithing and living an ordinary life…

Before reading him, what do you think?

geo

 

[fhansen]

Oh, I think it’s about using whatever gifts God gives us, for giving, healing, teaching, evangelizing, praying, counseling, comforting, feeding the hungry and clothing the naked, peacemaking-however many ways there are to love ones neighbor as we respond to the Spirit’s promptings.

 

[George720]

Cool - Let’s look…

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/200178.htm

Let us hearken then to these words.
As we have opportunity, let us help on our [salvation],
let us get oil for our lamps,
let us labor to add to our talent.
For if we be backward,
and spend our time in sloth here,
no one will pity us any more hereafter,
though we should wail ten thousand times.

He also that had on the filthy garments condemned himself, and profited nothing.
He also that had the one talent restored that which was committed to his charge, and yet was condemned.
The [virgins] again entreated, and came unto Him and knocked, and all in vain, and without effect.

So that on the one hand we are to INCREASE our talent(s)…
On the other hand we are to give their fruit to our neighbor…

Looks like two courses of effort…
And sloth is not an option…

On pain of eternal condemnation…

geo

 

[fhansen]

Talents could also simply be justice in us, which motivates and is intrinsically related to those right actions conformed to God’s will, justice that the Church teaches can and should be increased and which can also be identified with grace, love, righteousness.

 

[George720]

@fhansen

Talents could also simply be justice in us,
which motivates and is intrinsically related to those right actions conformed to God’s will,
justice that the Church teaches can and should be increased and
which can also be identified with grace, love, righteousness.

You got THAT from Chrysostom???

The EOC does not proceed along the lines of intrinsic justice as a talent that leads us to conform to God’s Will in some manner that can also be identified with grace, love and righteousness… That is, at least in my way of understanding, a bucket list…

You getting lazy on me??

geo

 

[fhansen]

You got THAT from Chrysostom???

No, I didn’t get much from the quotes you cited. And, yes, I may be lazy but I’ve always thought that the talents were grace in some manner or another and grace certainly prompts us to do God’s will as well as gives us the acts themselves that He wants us to do. And as we obey, yes, our justice, our love, His grace, increases in us. Grace leading to more grace.

And these things are all directly related in Catholicism to the indwelling and work of the Holy Spirit. In any case it’s not a strictly legal or business transaction as if we can purchase this blessing kind of willy-nilly. Our actions are supposed to be motivated by grace, by love.

And BTW, how can our justice - being justified - be separated from grace and love?

 

[George720]

And BTW, how can our justice - being justified - be separated from grace and love?

Thanks for the push back…

You are right, those concepts do all belong in the same bucket… And we are understanding, or endeavoring to understand, how that bucket differs from OT Salvation, because in that bucket in the OT as well as the new are all the items you tossed in…

So the Parable of the Talents is about the use of that which we are given which differs in kind and in degree one person from another, saved and unsaved, gentile and Jew - eg ALL human beings…

And the Talents are to be increased by our labors without sloth lest we be condemned… Parables open endlessly, yes? They are the Lord’s Goods… Which you call Grace, and how can that be argued? Yet does this mean that we can increase Grace by our own efforts? For clearly we can purchase oil with Almsgiving… But what does the doubling of one’s, say, five Talents look like? Does it mean taking a musical talent with one’s voice and becoming an opera (or opry) singer? Chrysostom tells us that labors increase our talents… And that is plainly true from the Parable…

So we know we can purchase Grace with Almsgiving…
Yet how do which labors increase our allotment of Grace?

Arsenios

 

[fhansen]

The labors themselves are grace, as is the wealth we have and the desire to give it to the poor. This relates to Eph 2:10 I see it:
"For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

It’s not either God or us; it’s both/and.

 

[George720]

The labors themselves are grace, as is the wealth we have and the desire to give it to the poor. This relates to Eph 2:10 I see it:
"For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

It’s not either God or us; it’s both/and.

Well it is true that without God we can do nothing…

Yet the Parable of the Talents addresses our efforts, not God’s, yes?
ινα εν αυτοις περιπατησωμεν literally says:
"In order that in them we should walk…"

So God has prepared them for us to walk in,
but
It is we who are to walk in them, not God…

I mean, the guy in the Parable who did nothing with his talent
was condemned to the outer darkness,
and this seems a direct result of his doings,
and not of God’s doings, yes?

It IS thereby a MORAL mandate, yes?

I mean, this is a scary text for my slothful efforts…

geo

 

[fhansen]

The moral mandate since Eden is, in essence, ‘Thou Shalt Obey Me’. And this subjugation only happens authentically as we do so willingly, which means as we come to love Him-and loving Him only comes by grace, as a gift, and only as we cooperate with that grace, as we accept and run with that gift. ‘Thou Shalt Love’ is God’s real and most concisely stated command to man, which is what the Greatest Commandments are all about, of course.

So what man is here to learn on this earth is just how much he needs God, first of all. We need to learn that, “Apart from Me you can do nothing.” So what we do still comes from Him, but with our cooperation in a partnership now, a relationship of intimate communion.

IOW, with the New Covenant man doesn’t need to go about doing good works first of all, or “works of the law” either, or fulfilling the commandments; rather man needs to enter relationship with God first of all, then the rest flows by the grace that He gives as He lives in and through us. We do it, because we can say “no”, and we must continue to strive to do the right thing and struggle against sin but the more we say “yes”, and cooperate with His will, the more we grow in strength, in our justice- in faith, hope, and love- in God’s own image, working out our salvation with He who works in us.(Phil2)

Adam said no to God; the guy in the parable said no to his Master, even though both were commanded what they must do. And so they became and remained apart from Him. An essential component of man’s justice is his own willing participation in it, which is what God has been seeking to draw out of us since day one. The justice, itself, comes from Him; we must begin to want it as He does; we must begin to love as he does.