Salvation - OT vs NT

[George720]

Maybe you should think about full-time monastery residency instead of just pilgrimages

The purpose of Monasteries is Spiritual formation…
Mine came through the world -
Through 36 years as an atheist…
The monastics - Some of them - do fixes…

God cheats, you know…
aka intercessory prayer…
And more than that…
This Faith is an undercover operation…

With tears, you dog!
Beseech that woman!
Beg her forgiveness…
And more time here!!

Wash her toes with your tears!

Yes sayin’…

It is too late for much formation these days…

Too many miles under this keel…

I am too close to the end…

Unless I am wrong…

He DOES cheat, you know…

And LOVES making me wrong…

Almost every time…

Almost??

geo

 

[George720]

The salvation and words of Jesus Christ in the NT is the fulfillment of the OT. They are not apart from one another.

Yes, the issue is the nature of that fulfillment…
What do both have in common…?
How do they differ from one another…?

The answer is the reason for Advent…
If no difference, then no Advent…
So it’s a good issue…
And seems largely unaddressed…

geo

 

[George720]

Anyway yes, I’m trying to assess your understanding-and the differences between ours. Yes, the RCC teaches that salvation is not about merely returning man to Eden.

Good…

We have a great advantage here over Adam.

A strange thing to say…

We experience life apart from God first of all so that, like Prodigals, we may already be helped to come to see the true value of the Father.

So the Fall is just the experience of life apart from God?

And then God worked with humanity through the centuries, grace ever-present through our struggles to ultimately prepare us for “so great a Redeemer” (from the Exsultet) who came to lead us back to Him, to a union that was presumably available to Adam but that he bypassed and forfeited with his “bigger and better” plans.

It was not available to Adam - That is why God warned Adam not to eat of that fruit… Adam did not have the ‘maturity’ to partake of that fruit… He was created Anthropos, and the eating of that fruit would be lethal to him until he became Theanthropos… And THAT is a whole 'nother topic! Only God can KNOW both Good AND evil and live… But God knowing and human knowing are two different knowings… In order for us to know God we must first forsake the human way of knowing evil, which since the time of John the Baptist we now can do because the Kingdom of the Heavens is permitting violence, and that particular violence, eg the violence of denial of self, is now unto our entry into the Kingdom of Heaven by Christ Baptizing us into His Body, the Ekklesia…

And from the large perspective in all this, God made His world in a “state of journeying to perfection”; we work out our salvation by our choices, by our response to grace, with our freedom ultimately intended to bind itself-to bind us -to God.

Do you mean both OT and NT? And I would challenge your idea that personal freedom can bind us to God… This is the Mystery, you see, for our God is unapproachable yet seekable through repentance from evil… We cannot overcome the Cherubim at the Gates… But we CAN enter Paradise IF God gives us the Grace to do so, for “by Grace are ye Saved”, and God’s Grace is not something he created for us, but is God Himself as Creator of all creation…

[continued]

 

[George720]

hansen:

It sounds by what you say that the EO may have this plan more distinctly and clearly worked out and explained but at this point I’m just listening, and pondering, to be honest

We have but kept unaltered the Faith of the Fathers from the beginnings… We do not ‘develop’ the Faith Christ discipled to His Apostles… We have developed the defense of this Faith in the face of those who hate it and who hate Christ and who hate us… The job, in part, of the Ekklesia in the face of assaults, is to preserve the way of Theosis - To keep it open, that the Saints of the Church continue to develop, emerge, and show forth… Or remain securely hidden in Christ… The Councils are a tribute to those who gather therein of the profound mission of the Church to keep at all costs this Divine Way of Holiness, which the enemies of God have been assaulting since the Fall - Or as the divine Basil wrote: God became man in order that man become god - eg In order that man become divinized IN Christ-God…

I know this last item is in your bucket, but such buckets contain tons of stuff requiring tons of RAM - eg Competent scholarship with comprehensive and well-organized memory… Yet simple unlettered folks know what God is doing in them, and normally remain hidden, and the world rests on their shoulders…

As a fer-instance, do you know that there are women living in holes in the ground in the national forests of Romania, whose suppliers are the local Rangers who know where they are hidden, who live in the cave of the earth and pray for mankind and the world? And in more ordinary times, such people do not permit themselves to be known, but live simple and hidden and good lives, and we meet them and greet them and are clueless as to their essential and hidden lives… I just ran into one yesterday, a little ol’ lady - A Roman Catholic who loves Padre Pio, among a lot of others… Who can only become still when she is praying… A daily Mass kind of person, and long prayers in the night… You never know when you will encounter one of these, and they are scattered and disbursed by God…

Enough!

geo

 

[fhansen]

So the Fall is just the experience of life apart from God?

No, that’s not what I’m saying. The chief consequence of Adam’s sin of disobedience is separation from God, with all that entails including much struggle and strife and pain and sin and the death that portends and threatens complete annihilation of our very existence. Here good (the good inherent in God’s creation) along with evil are experienced; good and evil are literally known as a result of the Fall. And so man can learn, by having touched the “hot stove”, directly and viscerally of the extreme foolishness of Adams choice, especially in light of the revelation and grace that God has also poured into His fallen world. That’s the “only” benefit this world has over Eden-but through it all He intends to bring an even greater good out of the evil that resulted from allowing man to abuse his free will.

It was not available to Adam - That is why God warned Adam not to eat of that fruit… Adam did not have the ‘maturity’ to partake of that fruit… He was created Anthropos, and the eating of that fruit would be lethal to him until he became Theanthropos… And THAT is a whole 'nother topic! Only God can KNOW both Good AND evil and live… But God knowing and human knowing are two different knowings… In order for us to know God we must first forsake the human way of knowing evil, which since the time of John the Baptist we now can do because the Kingdom of the Heavens is permitting violence, and that particular violence, eg the violence of denial of self, is now unto our entry into the Kingdom of Heaven by Christ Baptizing us into His Body, the Ekklesia…

No, God didn’t want Adam to eat of the fruit because disobedience of God, not heeding His will, is evil by it’s very nature. And something was available to Adam; he could’ve partaken of the Tree of Life, drawing nearer to God instead of away. IOW all of this points to a most basic choice for man.

Do you mean both OT and NT? And I would challenge your idea that personal freedom can bind us to God… This is the Mystery, you see, for our God is unapproachable yet seekable through repentance from evil… We cannot overcome the Cherubim at the Gates… But we CAN enter Paradise IF God gives us the Grace to do so, for “by Grace are ye Saved”, and God’s Grace is not something he created for us, but is God Himself as Creator of all creation…

God gives grace to all men; we’ll all be held accountable for whatever we’ve been given with more expected from those given more (Luke 12:48). And yes, man is still, with the help of that grace, expected to choose, and choose more and more strongly as he comes to increasingly “own” that choice, as love for God blossoms to put it another way. IOW the will of man has and always will be involved in all this, with man’s justice increasing the more his will aligns with God’s will-as God draws and coaxes this out of him.

 

[George720]

This topic - The presumed availability, as you had worded it, to Adam in the Garden, of union with God - eg the Salvation we now have in Christ - illustrates a basic difference between the Churches East vs West.

To which I replied:

It was not available to Adam - That is why God warned Adam not to eat of that fruit… Adam did not have the ‘maturity’ to partake of that fruit… He was created Anthropos, and the eating of that fruit would be lethal to him until he became Theanthropos… And THAT is a whole 'nother topic! Only God can KNOW both Good AND evil and live… But God knowing and human knowing are two different knowings… In order for us to know God we must first forsake the human way of knowing evil, which since the time of John the Baptist we now can do because the Kingdom of the Heavens is permitting violence, and that particular violence, eg the violence of denial of self, is now unto our entry into the Kingdom of Heaven by Christ Baptizing us into His Body, the Ekklesia…

And to this idea, that Adam was too immature to eat of the fruit of that tree…
You replied:

No…

And then you went on to explain:

God didn’t want Adam to eat of the fruit because disobedience of God, not heeding His will, is evil by it’s very nature. And something was available to Adam; he could’ve partaken of the Tree of Life, drawing nearer to God instead of away. IOW all of this points to a most basic choice for man.

Which holds that Adam’s eating of that fruit was itself a fundamental choice by Adam who chose evil instead of Good - That Adam’s motive was evil by its very nature… And this because it violated the Authority of God by his failure to obey God’s command…

So that practically speaking, because Adam chose disobedience, the fundamental feature of the discipling of the Church involves the imposition of obedience upon her children… And that means a divinely oriented authoritarian Church…

The Eastern Church embraces authority, but that embracing must be voluntary, and the Church thereby disciples willing obedience, rather than imposed authority… iow The Treasuries of the two Churches differ - eg Authority vs Obedience…

Hence a common RC Salvation motif is seen in rebellion against this imposed authority (in often fairly felonious acting out), and following the consequences of that kind of life, a willing submission to that very authority, to then becoming the imposer of that authority…

The children of the East can head into prodigality as well, but not commonly in anger at the imposition of the Authority of the Church - Self-indulgent but not usually all that felonious… And having the remembrance of parental upbringing in the Church, have a pretty good nose for truth, and when they run out of gas [or money or whatever], they check back in with family and clergy and pick up near where they departed… Or not!

Yet you will find two very different orientations of personhood in the two understandings of Adam’s Fall…

Adam did eat of the Tree of Life in the Garden, but NOT AFTER he fell, for that would have given him fallen immortality - Instead he was cast out

geo

 

[fhansen]

Whether or not he ate of the tree of life we don’t know. In any case he ate of the tree of death. And yes, God wants obedience-for our good. But as I quoted Basil of Cesarea, the RCC knows as well that true obedience comes only as we come to love, to fulfill the greatest commandments IOW. Those are the only commandments that cannot be faked or fulfilled in the wrong way for the wrong reasons incidentally. And that is a simple explanation of the difference between the old and new covenants BTW, where the old is fulfilled with effort, through fear and self-righteousness, while the other through love. If the east has emphasized this better and if the west has been too harsh so be it, I’m not sure, but I know that neither side has thrown out the decalogue, for example, as a moral code which must be obeyed with the threat of hell looming for disobedience.

Adam disobeyed. The act is inherently evil, negative, destructive, foolish, unjust, unharmonious with the rest of creation which always obeys God, albeit instinctively. We’re here to find out why Adam’s act was wrong. Like it or not man is a moral being and has an obligation to be who God intends him to be- for his own good. Man must learn of the undeniability of his need for God. And man must learn of the existence (yes, existence) of God first of all, then of his umitigated goodness, trustworthiness, kindness, mercifulness: of His love. That’s Who Jesus came to reveal. So we may know Him, so we may then love Him. Then obdience flows of it’s own accord, but the right way.

Theosis is essentially coming to love as God does-a work of His, of transforming us into His image. It’s pretty simple, while ineffably profound.

God has been patiently, lovingly working with man since the Fall to draw us into making the right choice, the God-option as opposed to the non-God option. Within this choice lies our own justice/perfection.

We have to learn what Adam didn’t yet know in Eden-that the act was evil, and opened the door to all the other moral evils, i.e. sin, often worse by far in their degree of sheer grievousness, that would follow in our brave new autonomous world.

 

[George720]

Let’s look briefly at Adam’s motive…
In order to justify Adam…
Because Adam did not simply decide one day to disobey God…
And THAT would be purely evil…

The deception of Adam by evil powers is a case-study in sin…
Adam wanted to be like his Heavenly Father…
That is the basis of him disobeying his Father…
And the basis for the deception by the serpent…

And the serpent approached him indirectly…
Through the Bone of his bones…
Through the Flesh of his flesh…
Through the one he named Woman…

And the promise was to become like God…
Knowing Good AND evil…
And to become like God…
He turned from God…

The result was catastrophic…
Naked and ashamed they hid from God…
And confronted he blamed the Woman…
Sound familiar?

So that disobedience was a consequence… His turning from God began first with hearing the Woman, then eating the forbidden fruit… It did not start with the pure evil of disobedience… But it got to there…

I always wondered in John 1:1 the term “ein pros” - Translated almost always as “was with” - Which is literally “was toward”… “The Word was with God…” A good scholar tried “was facing”, on the theory that prosopos is the Greek term for face… What it means, if simply read literally, is “was toward God…” Which means “never away from God”…

And Christ’s walk was totally and exclusively in obedience to His Father… Some monks live that way, once they connect with God - They ONLY do what is commanded, and NEVER do what is not… And this, of course, means getting an obedience from the Abbot for doing anything in the course of discipleship, but means a lot more when the obedience to the Abbot is canceled by death and the connection with God is established directly… For THAT is what Christ did… And we are to follow Christ… At least insofar as we are able…

So the point here is that Good is always the justification of evil… Purely embracing evil qua evil is not how man is corrupted into sin… It MAY become a much later development… But the beginning of sin is deception through the Good… Evil loves to hide…

This is why I push back against your idea that the disobedience of Adam was a purely [you said inherently] evil act… It had inherently evil consequences, but itself was induced through deception seeking Good…

Yes, the choice was moral, but deception uses what is morally good to motivate what is a hidden evil… Turning your back on God causes death, for by doing so, you cut yourself off from the Source of Life, and without that connection, one’s life is lost… The very same day, just as God had warned Adam…

We have to learn what Adam didn’t yet know in Eden-
that the act was evil,
and opened the door to all the other moral evils,
i.e. sin,

Well, it was a death act, as God had warned Adam…
And we in Adam are now born into that death…
And it is upon that death into which we are born…
That all have sinned…

Sins have an amazing persistence!

So have we justified Adam’s Sin?

Does deception mitigate it?

Somewhat perhaps?

Or not at all?

geo

 

[fhansen]

I don’t disagree with much if any of this

 

[George720]

Theosis is essentially coming to love as God does

A lovely descriptive!

a work of His,

Only God has God to Give…

of transforming us into His image.

er… Would you accept “Likeness”?

I do not think the Image can depart…

It’s pretty simple, while ineffably profound.

Roger that!

Well, “simple” is in the event from our side maybe…

But I totally buy ineffably profound - And even more than that…

It IS the Transformation in Power, whereas Baptism is the Seed…

geo

[/QUOTE]

 

[George720]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
I don’t disagree with much (if any) of this…

How do you understand the acquisition of the Holy Spirit in terms of our restoration to Adam’s initial raiment lost when he ate in disobedience? eg The Parable of the Ten Virgins?

geo

 

[fhansen]

Well, I haven’t thought too deeply about that parable other than to note it’s admonishment to be prepared and vigilant.

Anyway, we regain the relationship that Adam lost plus more, because, for one thing, we’ve first of all developed a hunger and thirst for truth and righteousness in this lost world, and therefore a hunger and thirst for God, whom Adam didn’t yet appreciate in Eden, sort of the way rich kids don’t appreciate their parents. They want the money, the inheritance, without valuing them, it’s source. Just some thoughts, not that they’re new.

In order to find God, or be found by Him, we must seek. We must approach Him in childlike humility, we must exercise faith, even as He draws us by grace as the Source of that faith. And when we seek like that God blesses us, and we respond by more obedience, “investing” and growing our gifts. God is a never-ending source of blessings and spiritual growth for man as we respond to His overtures. This is to abide in the Spirit, to be under grace.

And I perceive that there are many who don’t seek in that way. But to be a child of God one must do more than be Baptized and receive Communion and Chrismation or Confirmation. And more than obey the law externally. Much more. God must become our God again internally. And those are the ones who will be prepared, who have the grace, the oil in their lamps.

And I think the difference will be striking in the end. In this life the ones with much oil are too humble to admit that they have enough while those without oil are too proud to see and admit to their lack. Just some more thoughts.

 

[George720]

When the five foolish virgins were unable to light their lamps for want of oil, they asked the five wise virgins for some of their oil… The wise five said no, lest they themselves have not enough… So instead they sent the five foolish virgins out o purchase oil…

So there is no such thing as extra oil…
And oil can be purchased…

Does this mean that we are barely saved?
And how is oil purchased?

And what is this oil?
And if it is the Holy Spirit…
How do you purchase the Holy Spirit?

Just a few thoughts too…

geo

 

[Justin_Mary]

I am looking for the RCC’s teaching on the differences and similarities of God’s Salvation in the Old Testament compared with God’s Salvation in the New Testament…

It is my understanding that Christian teaching on salvation is the perfection of Jewish teaching on salvation.

We are a pilgrim people. This life points to true life. We die to the powers & dominions of this world & are raised to new life in the spirit. It is the soul that will survive this world & live forever if it is conformed to God’s will.

So the Hebrew people knew it was God that saved them from slavery & living according to His law He would continue to protect them, keep them free.

Christianity takes it further. We see this life is to prepare us for the next. If we allow our passions to govern our souls we’ll never be free. In this life or the next.

 

[Elf01]

When the five foolish virgins were unable to light their lamps for want of oil, they asked the five wise virgins for some of their oil… The wise five said no, lest they themselves have not enough… So instead they sent the five foolish virgins out o purchase oil…

So there is no such thing as extra oil…
And oil can be purchased…

Does this mean that we are barely saved?
And how is oil purchased?

And what is this oil?
And if it is the Holy Spirit…
How do you purchase the Holy Spirit?

Just a few thoughts too…

I think the oil is grace.

It doesn’t fully fit but I think it’s close.

They all started with oil, so I would say they were baptized.

They fell asleep I would interpret as sinned mortally.

The extra oil would be availing of Confession. This is the biggest stretch since they had it at the start.

Go and buy more could be go to confession.

 

[fhansen]

Just a few thoughts too…

Yes, a few thoughts with questions I may not have answers for. But I’d think the oil comes from asking, and obeying, and that such a “purchase” is made over time and persistence, like consistently making house payments!

 

[George720]

Here is the Parable of the ten virgins:

Mat 25:1-13
Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
And at midnight there was a cry made,
Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
But the wise answered, saying,
Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you:
but go ye rather to them that sell,
and buy for yourselves.
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came;
and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage:
and the door was shut.
Afterward came also the other virgins, saying,
Lord, Lord, open to us.
But he answered and said,
Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

It sure looks like preparation and vigil is the point…

Perhaps Chrysostom commented…

geo

 

[fhansen]

Another general thought, FWIW. The thief on the cross had a full lamp even though he had little time to fill it. But we’re expected to do the best we can with whatever we’re given-with more expected from those given more (Luke 12:48)-and he did.

 

[George720]

Chrysostom did comment extensively on this passage…

Oil is purchased in the market place by giving alms to the poor…

There is a context of sequential parables…

So that even if you dedicate yourself to God by virginity, you will be kept out of the Bridal Chamber IF you have not given alms to the poor…

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/200178.htm

geo

 

[George720]

So if oil is purchased by giving alms to the poor,
And this oil is needed for one’s lamp…
In order to enter the Bridal Chamber…
Then what is the lamp?
And is oil God’s Grace?
Or is it the Holy Spirit?
Are these two or one?
How can we know?
Am I the only one who loves such questions?

Here is Chrysostom:

But by lamps here,
He means the gift itself of [virginity],
the purity of [holiness];
and by oil,
humanity,
almsgiving,
succor…
to them that are in need.

geo